vialy Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I am really worried. Alfie is now approx 14 weeks old. Tonight he ran into the kitchen and began eating the cats food. My 7 year old daughter said no thats not yours and pulled him away and he bit her. It did actually draw blood, although it was more like cat scratches to look at, not puncture marks. Is this because he was eating? I am worried about this occuring again. Can someone please advise me. Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 He's guarding his resources- he needs to learn that you control his food and that you (or anyone else in the family) can do what you want with it. What are your feeding practices? Do you just set the food down for him and leave or do you make him wait? Trying NILIF (nothing in life is free) may help this- it basically teaches your dog that he doesn't get anything without earning it first. Other posters can probably help more with this and give better suggestions, but you might try making Alfie wait until he's allowed to eat or drink his food. When you put his food down for him, make him wait until you say he can eat it. If he goes for it while you're putting it down, take the bowl away. Give him a sit command and don't let him eat until he's patiently waiting for your say-so. This has worked well for Jade- I'll put her food or water down and she will continue to watch me until I give the release "OK" and she can begin eating. Can anyone else elaborate on the NILIF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I just had a pup do that to me recently. he was eating and growling while eating, and I went to touch him to stop the growling, and he turned and bit me. It wasnt pretty, ( reflex action) but he doesnt bite or growl while eating anymore, and I can stick my hand in the dish while he is eating and he either keeps on eating quietly, and respectfully or backs off the bowl till I take my hand out. It may not have been the best way to handle the situation, but it sure was a quick fix, and Im pretty sure he willl think twice before trying that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 It wasnt pretty, (reflex action) but he doesnt bite or growl while eating anymore... I really don't see any problem with this response to a bite or form of aggression as long as it's not ridiculously hard- if they're going to try and hurt me, why can't I return the favor? It doesn't take much and it's an easy fix, IMO. Their pack mates would respond the same way if they were higher up in the pecking order. None of my dogs have ever bitten because of this, and they never developed any behavioral problems either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well i'm not yet a BC owner but my crazy eater GSD is now more under control after a bit of NILIF training. I avoid giving him anything without at least "demanding" a good down or something similar. Also you should from a young age put your food in the bowl while he's eating etc. Don't let your daughter around him while eating atm, and test this yourself. You can start off by "sit" "wait" and only let him eat after a few seconds, also you can try and touch the food will he eats, if he growls or anything similar say a firm "NO" and maybe take him by the scruff and roll him on his back followed by another firm "NO" and take the food away. Then when he's settled again give it back to him (and maybe leave him alone this time so not to over scare him) he needs to know he's below you in the household. If he doesn't react to you then he knows his place, but to him he's above your daughter. and that is more serious. You can try under supervision for her to get close to the food while he eats and if he reacts you take the food and place it close to your daughter and don't let him in on it. Another way for him to get the picture is always feed yourself and your family before him (they instinctively understand they're lower in rank). Anyway there's a lot of ways to deal with this and i just gave a few ideas that may or not work with your dog. Just remember it's something you should deal with before it escalates. It can go from that to him jumping at your daughter to take food she carries cause he thinks he can, etc. No use your girl getting hurt, you feeling you have to get rid of the dog or something...he's still a pup so you'll fix this...i always put my hand in the food bowl when they're young so it's something they're used too..my "always hungry" GSD always starts eating faster thinking i might take it away but never a growl. Good luck, hope i was helpful oh i just remember another thing you can try...after the sit stay have your daughter set the food down for him...a leader provides food so it may be a way for him to understand his place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I am really worried. Alfie is now approx 14 weeks old. Tonight he ran into the kitchen and began eating the cats food. My 7 year old daughter said no thats not yours and pulled him away and he bit her. It did actually draw blood, although it was more like cat scratches to look at, not puncture marks. Is this because he was eating? I am worried about this occuring again. Can someone please advise me. Jill Without seeing the dog's behavior overall, I would hesitate to label this as "resource guarding". The puppy could well have been startled when the child pulled him, or it might have hurt. I'm not saying that it's OK for a dog to bite a child, but that this may have been a case where more appropriate behavior on the part of the child is needed, in addition to training for the dog. Two things that I would do here, first I would make sure that the child understands that pulling a dog away from something is dangerous. Perhaps in the future she could get an adult to help if the dog gets into something he should not be into. Second, I would take the time to teach the dog a "leave it". I don't use "leave it" as a correction, but simply as a cue for the dog to give up possession of something, or to back off from it. There are many ways to teach a "leave it". Once the dog knows a "leave it", you could teach your daughter how to cue the "leave it". I would advise you to find a positive trainer in your area who can meet your dog and assess the situation to determine whether or not resource guarding is really going on and design a training program that can work for the whole family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Without seeing the dog's behavior overall, I would hesitate to label this as "resource guarding". The puppy could well have been startled when the child pulled him, or it might have hurt. That was my first thought. Scooter has nipped at my husband a couple of times when he went after him and tried to take something away, and we both thought afterwards it was more of a reaction to being startled than having the particular item taken away. I prefer to walk up to him, tell him to drop it, and give him the chance to obey first. Then if he doesn't, I will physically take it away, but it's not like I'm running up to him and grabbing it. That would alarm me. From day one, I've always let him know where the food comes from, and who takes it away. I can pet him while he's eating, reach into the bowl, etc. Even though we feed dry food, I mix it up in the bowl with my bare hands so he gets my scent on the food. An Army friend of mine, who used to be in the Canine Unit and trained some pretty aggressive dogs, told me to spit into his food before giving it to him--another way of letting him know who's in charge. Uhhhh...I couldn't bring myself to do that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vialy Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Thanks everyone for your replies. Alfie has been a problem around ella on a few occasions, nipping her feet, jumping at her food etc. Our vet has suggested that we put her in charge of feeding him to show who is boss. We are starting one to one training sessions on saturday with a local trainer who trains police dogs and mountain search and rescue dogs, he is said to be excellent. Hopefully he can help me nip this behaviour in the bud. Dont know where I would be without this site. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I really don't see any problem with this response to a bite or form of aggression as long as it's not ridiculously hard- if they're going to try and hurt me, why can't I return the favor? It doesn't take much and it's an easy fix Their pack mates would respond the same way Pretty much how I felt about it. He was already being fed alone in his crate because he was trying to intimidate around the food bowl. He is the biggest and strongest of his other 2 littermates, and had succeeded in his intimidation efforts with them to the point where they wouldnt approach a bowl, even the water, until he was well away from it. I figured, lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Dave Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Here's what I learned and have done for in matter of a puppy biting human flesh, in ANY situation. Timing is essential as is 'positioning'. A lot of people will probably freak (but read the closing statement) ... Puppy bites -> with closed fist -> strike upwards onto the under jaw (the lower mouth) and issue a strong and firm "NO". (some here may have personally experienced the 'shocking' sensation one receives when your lower jaw/teeth impact the upper and I suspect it's much the same sensation) The instructor who shared this also shared: (student) "But what if the puppy bites his toungue and even punctures it?" "Even better, I can pretty much guarantee THAT puppy will never bite human flesh again!" Personally, that is the one behaviour I'd rather nip in the bud at the expense of some small or even large short term discomfort/ pain than gamble on dicking around with positive reinforcement methods. Well, unless someone here has a method that pretty much guarantees instant results. Otherwise, why 'gamble' that you have that behaviour eliminated before the puppy (or when grown) does it again. This time to a neighbor, visitor, or friend that isn't going to be so understanding? You DO know you're basically gambling with your dogs life at that point (regardless of how little the odds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Here's what I learned and have done for in matter of a puppy biting human flesh, in ANY situation. Timing is essential as is 'positioning'. A lot of people will probably freak (but read the closing statement) ... Puppy bites -> with closed fist -> strike upwards onto the under jaw (the lower mouth) and issue a strong and firm "NO". (some here may have personally experienced the 'shocking' sensation one receives when your lower jaw/teeth impact the upper and I suspect it's much the same sensation) The instructor who shared this also shared: (student) "But what if the puppy bites his toungue and even punctures it?" "Even better, I can pretty much guarantee THAT puppy will never bite human flesh again!" Personally, that is the one behaviour I'd rather nip in the bud at the expense of some small or even large short term discomfort/ pain than gamble on dicking around with positive reinforcement methods. Well, unless someone here has a method that pretty much guarantees instant results. Otherwise, why 'gamble' that you have that behaviour eliminated before the puppy (or when grown) does it again. This time to a neighbor, visitor, or friend that isn't going to be so understanding? You DO know you're basically gambling with your dogs life at that point (regardless of how little the odds) Sounds like a winning method to me. If you can do something 'shocking' to the pup that will gurantee that they will never do something like that again, it's worth it. Biting a person is inexcusably unacceptable no matter what anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I ditto what Kristine and you're vet suggested. Of course no one can be sure of the actual cause, resource gaurding/scared by the sudden reaction. I do think that a 7 year old is old enough to take some resoponsibility for the feeding of the dog. Using the NILIF approach (you can just google search it to find the info) I would get her to feed Alfie his food one bit at a time for each of his meals (if possible) every day for a while. Worked wonders for my bf (who has the mentality of a 7 year old sometimes ) and your daughter and Alfie will have a great bonding session every day. You are definately taking the right steps in finding a trainer and talking to your vet about it. As a side note, I've had the "smack under the jaw" back fire on me, resulting in puppy offering confused look and a play bow. So either I didn't do it hard enough or Daisy is secretly a sadist, who knows, but I didn't continue with that method! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Dave Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 As a side note, I've had the "smack under the jaw" back fire on me, resulting in puppy offering confused look and a play bow. So either I didn't do it hard enough or Daisy is secretly a sadist, who knows, but I didn't continue with that method! Sounds like Daisy could have used the full treatment with bit tongue! Kidding aside, as far as why it diidn't work for you, it isn't as much in how 'hard' you do it than it is getting your fist tightly closed, positioning it propererly, and getting a solid direct hit. If done right (and with all the variables it's not that easy for everything to 'fall in place'), the puppy/ dog should experience the shock from the lower jaw impacting the upper jaw. As I said, I don't know exactly what the dog feels, but I imagine it as something similar to like the sensation we humans feel when we strike our funny bone. And if that is the case, and Daisy is secretly a sadist, then that is one SICK dog! In any event, once I 'got it right' I didn't have any problems with biting. In my case of biting it was merely the playful 'biting' that went just too far. Now with Jonah it's just licks, and with Sassy, well it's been years since even in playing her mouth has been in contact with my flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Here's what I learned and have done for in matter of a puppy biting human flesh, in ANY situation. Timing is essential as is 'positioning'. A lot of people will probably freak (but read the closing statement) ... Puppy bites -> with closed fist -> strike upwards onto the under jaw (the lower mouth) and issue a strong and firm "NO". (some here may have personally experienced the 'shocking' sensation one receives when your lower jaw/teeth impact the upper and I suspect it's much the same sensation) The instructor who shared this also shared: (student) "But what if the puppy bites his toungue and even punctures it?" "Even better, I can pretty much guarantee THAT puppy will never bite human flesh again!" Personally, that is the one behaviour I'd rather nip in the bud at the expense of some small or even large short term discomfort/ pain than gamble on dicking around with positive reinforcement methods. Well, unless someone here has a method that pretty much guarantees instant results. Otherwise, why 'gamble' that you have that behaviour eliminated before the puppy (or when grown) does it again. This time to a neighbor, visitor, or friend that isn't going to be so understanding? You DO know you're basically gambling with your dogs life at that point (regardless of how little the odds) FWIW, I wouldn't do this if you paid me all the money in the world or promised me a "perfect dog". I really don't care how "effective" it is, nor that the results are "instant". I could simply not live with myself if I did that to a dog. The good news, whether you choose to believe it or not, is that there are other ways to get the same results without striking the animal. Without causing the dog so much as a moment of discomfort, in fact. Anyone who would ever like more information is very welcome to PM me anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Sounds like Daisy could have used the full treatment with bit tongue! Kidding aside, as far as why it diidn't work for you, it isn't as much in how 'hard' you do it than it is getting your fist tightly closed, positioning it propererly, and getting a solid direct hit. If done right (and with all the variables it's not that easy for everything to 'fall in place'), the puppy/ dog should experience the shock from the lower jaw impacting the upper jaw. As I said, I don't know exactly what the dog feels, but I imagine it as something similar to like the sensation we humans feel when we strike our funny bone. And if that is the case, and Daisy is secretly a sadist, then that is one SICK dog! Ya, I don't know about her somedays, besides, I don't think I could have brought my self to do it again anyway. We managed with NILIF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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