Question for goose dog people

[jrhodo]

Hi,

 

I work at three golf courses. My border collie has been chasing geese since March, and doing quite well. She had some herding training on sheep.

 

We managed to move all of the geese off of the courses except two pairs that hatched their babies and moved to our biggest pond. It is a winding pond with lots of shore line. The fairway and green only amount to about an 1/10 of the shore line. I think the geese feel safe, because there's always another place for them to go.

 

My question is, should I just chase them off of the fairway/green or should I keep harassing them around the entire perimeter?

 

More info: Reb goes in the water after the geese, but doesn't swim after them. She has stood her ground against attacking parents and made them retreat. She's even herded a lost gosling to me.

 

Thanks for your help, Jean

[DTrain]

Hi,

 

I work at three golf courses. My border collie has been chasing geese since March, and doing quite well. She had some herding training on sheep.

 

We managed to move all of the geese off of the courses except two pairs that hatched their babies and moved to our biggest pond. It is a winding pond with lots of shore line. The fairway and green only amount to about an 1/10 of the shore line. I think the geese feel safe, because there's always another place for them to go.

 

My question is, should I just chase them off of the fairway/green or should I keep harassing them around the entire perimeter?

 

More info: Reb goes in the water after the geese, but doesn't swim after them. She has stood her ground against attacking parents and made them retreat. She's even herded a lost gosling to me.

 

Thanks for your help, Jean

 

Jean, there is little you can do until the gosslings can fly. I do much of my work before the geese nest but I do encounter this situation. You need to allow them some space and if you can move them to another area for food that would work. Just keep them off the green. It is good that your dog does not swim for them especially in this case. These young geese have already imprinted on your course and they will be back. Get after them when they are able to fly and as soon as they return in the spring. The parents may decide on another location to nest next year but do everything you can to keep them from nesting. Where I live it is illigal to work geese with babies so I try very hard to keep geese from nesting.

[jrhodo]

Thanks so much for your response! I started working about a week too late this year, these pairs had already started nesting. I'll know better next year. I can't believe how much fun goose chasing is, and I get paid.

 

Any tips on getting close to geese? Whether I pull up in my Workman, a golf cart or my car the geese start moving before my dog can get to them. I'm thinking of dressing my dog up as a golfer, LOL.

 

Jean

[kelpiegirl]

You have to be wily, and show up in weird places, and at different times. They know my car too. It can be nice though, on say a wet rainy day, to not have to get drenched

[DTrain]

Thanks so much for your response! I started working about a week too late this year, these pairs had already started nesting. I'll know better next year. I can't believe how much fun goose chasing is, and I get paid.

 

Any tips on getting close to geese? Whether I pull up in my Workman, a golf cart or my car the geese start moving before my dog can get to them. I'm thinking of dressing my dog up as a golfer, LOL.

 

Jean

 

I have developed goose and wildlife control programs for golf courses and municipalities from British Columbia to Ontario and I can tell you that you that at every location I have ever worked the geese get to know you fast. They know you as the person who bothers them, they know the golfers as safe. I do not try to approach the geese with a cart and on some courses I need to park my Jeep quite far away. The key to effective goose control is to present your dog as a predator. As Kelpie points out you need to develop a plan. Find locations on your course where you can stay out of site, do not let the geese know you are coming and send the dogs as if they were on a hunt. I have a course in BC that has ponds that are elevated, perfect for the geese. I, or my dog approaches from a nearby bush, he does an outrun of about 250 yards, he does a very low walk-up of about 30 yards and then explodes toward the pond, about another 20 yards. He does all of this behind a series of hills. The geese come off the ground like they were shot out of a cannon. Because of his specific training he does most of this by himself. I have even seen him vary his apporach, he thinks he is hunting. For most of his run I cannot see him and do not know if he has done his job until I see the geese fly. We do this at ramdon times. At times when golfers are on the course they will stop, stand and watch and give my dog a round of applause when he lifts the geese. My dog has had lunch offers from golfers. It is my favorite course and the most fun I have. He also works Elk on this course and in Banff which is another story. Geese are very smart. They will catch on very quickly and know exactly who and where you are. It is fun to develop surprise attack plans. Take a close look at your course and see where you can position yourself out of site or at least far away. When your dog has his target send him and he will do the rest. Have fun.

[jrhodo]

I like the idea of a surprise attack! I'll have to think about that.

 

I have one hugh advantage (and disadvantage), I work at the three golf courses as the horticulturalist (gardener). First thing every morning we make our goose rounds. The rest of the day I'm outside, usually by the clubhouse, and can hear geese fly onto the course. I give them time to get onto land and then we go out and meet them. Since they haven't settled in, chasing them once usually does the trick. Sometimes they land on three different ponds. By the third pond they just fly away when they see us coming.

 

If I don't see the geese, the grounds crew and rangers (starters) have my cell number. They usually hang around to watch us work, which is fun especially when Reb has an impressive run.

 

My disadvantage is that I try not to spend too much time chasing geese, so lying in wait might not be possible. My boss has been great about the dog, but I don't want him to start questioning how much time I'm not doing my 'real' job.

 

Reb started chasing geese the first week in April and has caught on very fast. She does great when she can see the geese, but when I send her on geese she can't see she only runs about 200 yards and then turns back. I repeat my command but the geese have usually entered the water by then. I immediately take her to the water's edge and show her the geese. Any suggestions?

 

We had a coyote on a hole last week. It was just under a year old. Reb wanted to chase it in the worst way, but I didn't let her. Are my instincts correct?

 

On a light note: I was talking to one of the rangers (starters) and when I was ready to go I told Reb "up" which is her command to get into the cart. She leisurely strolled to the cart and got my disapproving look because she didn't move quicker. The ranger called her obedience "quite impressive". It put things into perspective for me. Compared to most dog owners, I expect so much more from her. Because she's a border collie she delivers.

 

Jean

[DTrain]

I like the idea of a surprise attack! I'll have to think about that.

 

I have one hugh advantage (and disadvantage), I work at the three golf courses as the horticulturalist (gardener). First thing every morning we make our goose rounds. The rest of the day I'm outside, usually by the clubhouse, and can hear geese fly onto the course. I give them time to get onto land and then we go out and meet them. Since they haven't settled in, chasing them once usually does the trick. Sometimes they land on three different ponds. By the third pond they just fly away when they see us coming.

 

If I don't see the geese, the grounds crew and rangers (starters) have my cell number. They usually hang around to watch us work, which is fun especially when Reb has an impressive run.

 

My disadvantage is that I try not to spend too much time chasing geese, so lying in wait might not be possible. My boss has been great about the dog, but I don't want him to start questioning how much time I'm not doing my 'real' job.

 

Reb started chasing geese the first week in April and has caught on very fast. She does great when she can see the geese, but when I send her on geese she can't see she only runs about 200 yards and then turns back. I repeat my command but the geese have usually entered the water by then. I immediately take her to the water's edge and show her the geese. Any suggestions?

 

We had a coyote on a hole last week. It was just under a year old. Reb wanted to chase it in the worst way, but I didn't let her. Are my instincts correct?

 

On a light note: I was talking to one of the rangers (starters) and when I was ready to go I told Reb "up" which is her command to get into the cart. She leisurely strolled to the cart and got my disapproving look because she didn't move quicker. The ranger called her obedience "quite impressive". It put things into perspective for me. Compared to most dog owners, I expect so much more from her. Because she's a border collie she delivers.

 

Jean

 

Hi Jean, working at the course does put you at a disadvantage. It tends to narrow your work down to regular times that the geese catch on to. You mention that you work the geese when you hear them come to the course and then wait for them to begin foraging. Try a station tactic a few times, that is to say station the dog where you expect the geese to be and wait for them. I find that often times they will not even try to land. A variety of times and tactics will keep the geese off-guard and often will discourage them. Your dog returns when she cannot find the target. Try going to the spot where she stopped and start her again. If she makes the connection once she will probably be fine. If you do field trials try her on commands and direct her to the location. I have done field work where the dogs could not see the target and called them into it. A little secret. I have set up decoys on courses and have asked the dogs to go to the decoys from different locations and distances. They can do this all day and they remember where they need to be. When my dogs are on a course for the first time I spend the entire day on the course letting them become familiar. They seem to remember a course more quickly than I do. I allow the dogs to hang out where the geese usually are and ask the Super not to clean the area for the day. The dogs remember that spot and will often go to it. As I roam the course I will ask for a look-back from different locations and the dogs will go. In effect they have learned where to be. This helps when I am using a station tactic. Your insticts are good about the coyote. If he stays on the course and if he can bring a few friends you will have much less problem with nesting. Your dogs however will never accept coyotes. You can expect so much more from your dog in your situation. Your dog will need to do things far outside of what she would in field work. I have a dog who works Elk. People often say that it must be like working cows. I say yes but when I work cows I never fear for my life. A fully grown male Elk in a rage scares me but my dog works them like they are sheep. He has learned to work off the stock if you will and he has an instant call-off. His job is to put them on the run, kind of opposite to field work. I have had more then one situation where I thought we were both going to be killed. By the way, I charge 10 times my price to work Elk. Don't worry about your dog leanring a target. I have a six year old which saw a course once, we worked the day as described. The following morning the Super and I were standing in front of the clubhouse talking. My dog took off on a full run. I thought he was chasing something but he began this huge outrun to a series of ponds at the other end of the course. We must have been 1000 yards away. We lost sight of him and started walking and in a couple of minutes a whole flock of very surprised geese came off the pond. The dog had only seen that location on the course once but knew where and when to go. I was not happy that he went on his own but I praised him for his work. We were hired and my dog was given honorary membership privilages.

[Eileen Stein]

Since this forum is for training dogs to work livestock, I am moving this thread to General Border Collie Discussion. Not a perfect fit, I know, but it is the catch-all category.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Eileen, what about re-naming the "obedience" etc, category, "Other Training" - Then it can also include informal training like tricks and general manners and troubleshooting, plus new sports/pursuits like the goosedogging, SAR, tracking, rally, freestyle.

[jrhodo]

DTrain,

 

First let me tell you how much I appreciate your reply. You've giving me a lot to think about. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I'm very busy at work. It's finally warm enough to plant my 10,000 annuals and I've been working until I'm too tired to dig another hole.

 

I guess I didn't make myself clear, none of the geese that we've chased as soon as they arrive have stayed on the course. I think that's the advantage that I have being there all of the time. I know if they are new geese or ones that have been chased before by their reaction to my workman. Of course, I don't know what's in store for us once the molt is over and the fall migration begins.

 

Just this last week I've had about 10 new geese show up. They are a bigger subspecies then the ones that stay all year. I can't find much information on migration during this time of year. I'm wondering if they did migrate in from the south, or if they were around and just decided to check out my courses? They arrived in pairs.

 

The only permanent geese on the courses are the two pairs that were already nesting when we started working them. The good thing about the nesting pairs is that they are predictable and it gives me a good way to train Reb.

 

When you say you set up decoys, do you mean geese decoys? That sounds like a great idea. Do your dogs associate the decoys with real geese?

 

We have many coyotes around the course. In fact, I think they may have been the animal that ate all of the eggs in one nest. I suspect that they make my job easier. They go after the geese at night and Reb stalks them during the day.

 

I'd like to see your dog work Elk! That must be something. We don't have any Elk this far south in Michigan. Deer are a huge problem, but not too much on the course. Reb has chased them out of my yard.

 

Jean

[DTrain]

DTrain,

 

First let me tell you how much I appreciate your reply. You've giving me a lot to think about. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I'm very busy at work. It's finally warm enough to plant my 10,000 annuals and I've been working until I'm too tired to dig another hole.

 

I guess I didn't make myself clear, none of the geese that we've chased as soon as they arrive have stayed on the course. I think that's the advantage that I have being there all of the time. I know if they are new geese or ones that have been chased before by their reaction to my workman. Of course, I don't know what's in store for us once the molt is over and the fall migration begins.

 

Just this last week I've had about 10 new geese show up. They are a bigger subspecies then the ones that stay all year. I can't find much information on migration during this time of year. I'm wondering if they did migrate in from the south, or if they were around and just decided to check out my courses? They arrived in pairs.

 

The only permanent geese on the courses are the two pairs that were already nesting when we started working them. The good thing about the nesting pairs is that they are predictable and it gives me a good way to train Reb.

 

When you say you set up decoys, do you mean geese decoys? That sounds like a great idea. Do your dogs associate the decoys with real geese?

 

We have many coyotes around the course. In fact, I think they may have been the animal that ate all of the eggs in one nest. I suspect that they make my job easier. They go after the geese at night and Reb stalks them during the day.

 

I'd like to see your dog work Elk! That must be something. We don't have any Elk this far south in Michigan. Deer are a huge problem, but not too much on the course. Reb has chased them out of my yard.

 

Jean

 

Hi Jean,

I am very much enjoying communicating with you. I did not realize you are in Michigan, where exactly are you. I have a video somewhere of my dog working elk in Banff park. I will see if I can show it. Yes, I use goose decoys. The dogs quickly learn of course that hey are not real geese but they never fail to go to them. If you set up the decoys where you usually find geese and repeat the exercise of sending the dogs you will find that after a while you can send the dogs from almost any location and they will go to that spot. Because they also find real geese there they will go to that spot just in case.

I am beginning to see more and more geese show up in the areas that I work. There is a difference between resident geese and geese that are just passing by. The geese that are passing by are easy to remove. At this time of year geese without babies will begin to move around and go from course to course. When the molt is over many more geese will be moving around. I expect the new geese you are seeing have been in the area and have just now discovered you. If you are in southern Michigan you are on a fly-way. I will check my records to see exactly what that path is. I know that the lake Huron and St. Clair River is part of that fly-way.

I ran into something interresting on Monday. I visited a course new London, ON. The super has a border collie and a huge goose problem. He told me that the dog has been working the geese but he still has a problem. He wanted to know why the geese are not responding to the dog. He gave me a demo. His dog is chasing the geese but they are heading for ponds or will take a short flight to another part of the course. He is not working the dog on commands and I expect this is part of the problem. The border collie has become just a chase dog and is having no effect. He works the geese at about the same time every day for only a short period. I am going to go back and look into this deeper. I have not had the chance in the past to watch a chase dog and this should be informative. I have heard from many Supers that they have tried dogs in the past and it did not work. Now I have the chance to study this and see exactly what happens.

You have deer, exercise time. I have never seen a deer stand-off a dog like elk will and I have never seen that they cuase much of a problem anywhere I have worked however they are great exercise for the dogs. My oldest dog loves to chase deer. When I encounter a healthy adult under the right circumstances I will let him go. He has never threatened a deer or got close enough to cuase any harm but he stays slim and trim. This is the only time I allow him to simply chase and I find that after a good chase his pace on stock is excellent.

Let me know where you are and I will help do some research.

Dave

[jrhodo]

Dave,

 

I'm near Lansing, MI. My golf courses are in a rural area with lots of ponds and grave pits. In the fall we get many flocks of geese passing through, so I wouldn't be surprised if we're on a fly-way.

 

I'm going to get some decoys and work Reb with them as soon as I'm done planting, about three weeks. The only limiting factor in Reb's abilities is her trainer! I have so much to learn. She never fails to amaze me at what she can do. She does have a stubborn streak. When we were doing herding training, the instructor said Reb thinks she knows what to do better than us. "Lie down" took a very long time to learn. I'm trying to use her natural talents and thinking ability along with perfect obedience. Much easier said than done.

 

I'll be very interested to hear what you learn about the chasing dog. It sounds like the geese all know it and what it will and won't do. A year ago March, my boss, the Super, asked me to research what kind of dog he should get to chase geese. I read all about border collies and shared the information with him. He said he didn't want one because they have long hair. I explained that there are short haired ones... He went to the animal shelter and got what was supposed to be a cattle dog mix, doesn't look or act like a cattle dog, i.e. no herding instincts. His dog doesn't chase geese, just his cart, LOL. I was so intrigued with border collies that I found Reb. She was three with a great pedigree but not much training. Her father is an excellent cattle dog with no formal training and her mom is a talented sheep dog. I spent a whole year working with her before I started her on geese. I mention this because I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Supers you deal with have the same attitude as my boss; just get a dog and it will chase the geese. My boss doesn't have the time or patience to train his dog. He also doesn't have the flexibility in his schedule to get out and chase geese when he should. I'm lucky because I work independently and can chase geese any time of the day. I sometimes go back at dusk to catch the geese coming in for the night.

 

I'll have to try Reb on deer when I see them. I know she is delighted with herself when she chases them out of my yard. She does gets lots of exercise on the course. I mentioned before that we start our day by doing our goose rounds. It's not just to look for geese. It's also a time for Reb to run a few holes and shed some of her excess energy before she accompanies me on my gardening duties. She's also trained most of the grounds crew to throw her Frisbee for her. She sleeps well when we get home!

 

How many dogs do you have? How many dogs do you work at a time?

 

This goose dog stuff is so interesting and fun. I'm glad I'm trying to do it.

 

Jean

[DTrain]

Dave,

 

I'm near Lansing, MI. My golf courses are in a rural area with lots of ponds and grave pits. In the fall we get many flocks of geese passing through, so I wouldn't be surprised if we're on a fly-way.

 

I'm going to get some decoys and work Reb with them as soon as I'm done planting, about three weeks. The only limiting factor in Reb's abilities is her trainer! I have so much to learn. She never fails to amaze me at what she can do. She does have a stubborn streak. When we were doing herding training, the instructor said Reb thinks she knows what to do better than us. "Lie down" took a very long time to learn. I'm trying to use her natural talents and thinking ability along with perfect obedience. Much easier said than done.

 

I'll be very interested to hear what you learn about the chasing dog. It sounds like the geese all know it and what it will and won't do. A year ago March, my boss, the Super, asked me to research what kind of dog he should get to chase geese. I read all about border collies and shared the information with him. He said he didn't want one because they have long hair. I explained that there are short haired ones... He went to the animal shelter and got what was supposed to be a cattle dog mix, doesn't look or act like a cattle dog, i.e. no herding instincts. His dog doesn't chase geese, just his cart, LOL. I was so intrigued with border collies that I found Reb. She was three with a great pedigree but not much training. Her father is an excellent cattle dog with no formal training and her mom is a talented sheep dog. I spent a whole year working with her before I started her on geese. I mention this because I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Supers you deal with have the same attitude as my boss; just get a dog and it will chase the geese. My boss doesn't have the time or patience to train his dog. He also doesn't have the flexibility in his schedule to get out and chase geese when he should. I'm lucky because I work independently and can chase geese any time of the day. I sometimes go back at dusk to catch the geese coming in for the night.

 

I'll have to try Reb on deer when I see them. I know she is delighted with herself when she chases them out of my yard. She does gets lots of exercise on the course. I mentioned before that we start our day by doing our goose rounds. It's not just to look for geese. It's also a time for Reb to run a few holes and shed some of her excess energy before she accompanies me on my gardening duties. She's also trained most of the grounds crew to throw her Frisbee for her. She sleeps well when we get home!

 

How many dogs do you have? How many dogs do you work at a time?

 

This goose dog stuff is so interesting and fun. I'm glad I'm trying to do it.

 

Jean

 

Hi Jean.

Lansing is on a fly way so you and Reb should have plenty to do. I would expect you see geese for most of the year. It seems that in most areas the number of resident geese is increasing. Many areas where winter is not as harsh as it once was offers food for geese all year so they have no reason to leave. I have not been in the east long but in areas I have worked I have noted that the numbers of resident geese are strong and these birds appear to be larger. I am still learning about them.

Reb sounds perfectly normal and I can tell you that my dogs do know better than I do. Lie down is difficult but you are not alone. I have watched some great handlers in trials struggle with lie down. I have a dog that likes to push and work at a quick pace. Sometimes getting him to lie down requires a little preasure on my part. I wish there was a speed trial for bringing sheep from 600 yeards. On the other hand this same dog can do the worlds slowest walk ups. When working geese I often use lie down just to give me time to think. When he works elk there is sometimes no chance for a lie down and it has sometimes been a very good idea that he knows better than I do and thinks for himself.

I will be spending some time on the course with the chase dog this summer. The Super has asked if I would do a demonstration for him and show him what to do. Another problem. I can show him how it happens of course but unless he has a trained dog it is not going to work for him. I am hearing much more often in the east that I did in the west from Supers who have tried dogs and it did not work. Or, they know somebody who tried it and it did not work. Or, the worst, I hired a person or company and it did not work. I know that in almost every case it was an untrained dog and untrianed handler. I am even finding that some companies who claim to have been in the business for a long time and are professional are part of the problem as well. I am providing as much information as I can on how to properly do the work and how to properly find and train a dog. I am using my best dog to do demonstrations. I am doing what I can to bring some credibility to the business. I have also heard from Supers and a few cities that they are looking into getting a rescue dog and many of them say that if they can find a border collie they can solve their goose problem. There appears to be an assumption that a border collie will do the work by itself and I have a real problem with that for the sake of border collies everywhere. I spend as much time educating as I do working but that is another story. We can work on it. Perhaps we can work up a seminar for the Michigan golf supers association. I did many seminars in the west and I think there is a real need for them here.

I am working three dogs on geese at the moment but I have a couple coming up. I like to make sure my dogs are fully trained on stock before I take them to geese. I also like the dogs to be fully grown and strong before I put them to any hard work. I sometimes work two dogs at once. If the geese are close to water I find I can send two dogs in opposite directions. Sometimes I will send one dog to the head of the geese and the other dog straight in. I find it is often the case that I can cut the geese off from the water and lift them off the ground. However things do not always go as planned as you know. Situations change and we talked about how much fun it is to be creative. I never work two dogs on elk for the sake of the dogs. Things happen too quickly and I can't keep track and I do not want a dog hurt. My third dog is fairly new to geese and he is my walk up specialist. I use him in public situations such as parks when there is people around and little room to work the geese. I will even work him on a long lead. He is great for public relations. When I can work him in open areas and more private situations I often spend as much time training as working.

It sounds like Reb has a great life, geese, deer, gardening, frisbee, eat and sleep. I bought a dog out west and when I explained to the breeder what the dog would be doing he thought it was fantastic but insisted that I do not tell his stock dogs. Have fun.

Dave