Done for, and more

[kelpiegirl]

Am so enjoying working my dog on sheep, I am to a point where I need a second dog to work, so as not to over work her Not that she isn't more than willing, but it simply is not wise to work one dog into the ground as it were . So, for the first time, I feel the need to work another dog, regularly. How early in your journey working stock, did you determine it was time to start working more than one dog? Why?

[Sue R]

We have a different situation from you, I expect. We have very little work here much of the time, sometimes some daily work, and occasionally some all-day work.

 

When I got a handle on Celt so that he was pretty useful (although ineptly handled and not well-trained), I got another pup to bring along so that I would have a back-up dog should Celt be out of commission, and so that I would have another dog for back-up for Celt when we needed two dogs to get a job done (now this is partly due to Celt's issues and partly due to just needing two dogs for certain jobs with a cow herd of 20 to 30 animals).

 

I haven't mentioned Megan for, while she is eager to work, she is poorly bred and has limited abilities - but she does have some strengths that we find come in quite handy for certain situations. She was an adoption that just happened, and wasn't planned.

 

Now, I'm wondering, are you saying that you have so much stock work or that you work (train) your dog a lot? Do you think you need another dog to accomplish necessary chores (at which point, I think you will have answered your own question) or you need/want another dog to do stockwork training to the degree that you want to do it? Maybe I'm being fuzzy here...

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Sue

Very different situation indeed. I am one of those "other" sheepdog people who work "other people's sheep"- I hope this doesn't preclude me from anything....

 

We have a different situation from you, I expect. We have very little work here much of the time, sometimes some daily work, and occasionally some all-day work.

 

When I got a handle on Celt so that he was pretty useful (although ineptly handled and not well-trained), I got another pup to bring along so that I would have a back-up dog should Celt be out of commission, and so that I would have another dog for back-up for Celt when we needed two dogs to get a job done (now this is partly due to Celt's issues and partly due to just needing two dogs for certain jobs with a cow herd of 20 to 30 animals).

 

I haven't mentioned Megan for, while she is eager to work, she is poorly bred and has limited abilities - but she does have some strengths that we find come in quite handy for certain situations. She was an adoption that just happened, and wasn't planned.

 

Now, I'm wondering, are you saying that you have so much stock work or that you work (train) your dog a lot? Do you think you need another dog to accomplish necessary chores (at which point, I think you will have answered your own question) or you need/want another dog to do stockwork training to the degree that you want to do it? Maybe I'm being fuzzy here...

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I needed another dog to help handle chores. Ben is a dog that is very lacking in a lot of ways, and with even another dog that was also lacking (my fault), he did much better and the chores got done, not twice as fast, but four times as fast, or more.

 

Once I got a youngster and invested in having someone else train him, well, that was probably one of the smartest moves I ever made in terms of getting stuff done on the farm. Chores that took 30 minutes or more then took 30 seconds, and I learned what it meant to bring the sheep to me, rather than going to the sheep.

 

After that, I added a dog when I got some age on the dog that was acting as my main dog. I spent many years in my quest to replace my "middle dog", some time spent actually out of it completely after my auto wreck, but mostly raising pups that didn't work out.

 

Ted's my main dog now, so my dog setup now looks like this, which is in my mind ideal:

 

Ben, 12 yo, for doing stuff that needs little input, and only he really has the sheep's number on (loading trailers and chutes, working sheep in heavy woods)

Cord, 8 yo, for backup on long drives and doing "big gathers", his specialty, and anything where his eye will help out (holding for whatever)

Ted, 18 mo, for daily chores, moving sheep around, holding on long grazes

 

I use all three dogs when we are holding sheep for hoof trimming, vaccination, ear tagging, worming, etc. Gus helps too - trading off with Ted, who's not very good at this yet. This is because I'm masochistic and enjoy doing these chores out on the graze, so the sheep can continue grazing while we do time-consuming chores. So the dogs hold the sheep on three points while we catch and do whatever. The dogs not only work three points of pressure, but they also perform very different functions. Ben has tons of power, so he goes way out and holds two entire points of the compass just laying down. But he sucks at reading sheep, so Gus and Ted are good there, to go and "fix" things before they get out of hand - ewes or lambs trying to sneak away. Then Cord is the Eye Master - he'll hold a side until kingdom come and we can use him to catch sheep - he'll hold a tricky single for us.

 

So when I think of replacing a dog, I'm also thinking of the style of dog I'm going to need, too. That's one reason it took me so long to "replace" my old Rick dog - he had moderate eye and lots of stock sense, and at hand he was steady as a rock when he matured. It took me a while to figure out that the first two are innate, while the latter is something that just takes miles and some focused training. But you can't train without the right instincts, so that's where I kept getting hung up.

[Sue R]

Doesn't preclude you from anything - I just wanted to reply but was pretty sure that my situation was somewhat different from yours and my experiences might not apply at all. I wish I was a sheepdog person, with my own sheep or someone else's to work but all I have (outside of lessons and clinics) is cattle.

 

What I'm asking is - do you need another dog to help get the work done that must be done, or are you wanting another dog to work/train with?

 

I think that if this is work that is more than Lucy can handle on her own and it has to be done, your question is answered already - you need another dog. If this is work or training that you are enjoying doing, and you would like to do this much or more, and it's more than Lucy should be doing, then you need to decide if you want another dog to continue or increase your training/work load.

 

Nobody's precluded from anything because their circumstance or need is different from anyone else's - I was just trying to understand your question better and try to reply. Sorry if I came across unkindly or dismissively - it wasn't intended.

[kelpiegirl]

Nah you didn't Sue It is the latter from whence I speak.

[Sue R]

Ah! Well then, do you feel you are ready? Have you learned enough to avoid making some mistakes with a new dog that you might have made with Lucy? Can you take on another dog financially, etc.? Do you have an idea where you'd like to get the dog (or pup)? If the answers are yes, then go for it and best wishes!

 

I envy you the opportunity to have enough stockwork that you need another dog. For much of the year, I have barely enough for one and no good training opportunity here at home for a youngster like Bute. But, when I need them, I really need them and couldn't do without them.

[Chesney's Girl]

Julie,

 

I think I'm in a situation kind of like you are. I only have Chesney to work and there is much to work on, but I feel like I have a lot of down time while I am letting him rest or when I am done working him for the day. Thus is the reason for me getting a puppy within the next year. I am at the point where I want to work a different kind of dog and one with lots more potential than Chesney. While Chesney will take me pretty darn far for my first dog, I'm ready to start working a dog that will take me to that next level that Chesney just doesn't have the ability to. This is also the reason for me starting this "Project Puppy" this summer. to further improve myself as a handler working a different dog that will have different abilities and present new challenges. So I guess my reason for wanting to work more dogs than mine is to expand my abilities as a handler and challenge myself and doing that with just Chesney is difficult because its one dog that really can't present all the challenges that come with working different types of dogs!

 

Hope that's what you were asking lol

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Sue

I think I have learned a lot- though much more to learn! As to where we will go- well, as far as we can No, I don't need another dog!

But, then, I suppose I am not in the minority when it comes to that... Since I am not a farmer- and have a day job, I certainly don't have the work requirements, but as one ages in life, one begins to find what stokes their fire, and what they would rather spend their time doing over everything else, and fits into this saying "A bad day at sheepherding is better than a good day at work".

 

Ah! Well then, do you feel you are ready? Have you learned enough to avoid making some mistakes with a new dog that you might have made with Lucy? Can you take on another dog financially, etc.? Do you have an idea where you'd like to get the dog (or pup)? If the answers are yes, then go for it and best wishes!

 

I envy you the opportunity to have enough stockwork that you need another dog. For much of the year, I have barely enough for one and no good training opportunity here at home for a youngster like Bute. But, when I need them, I really need them and couldn't do without them.

[Sue R]

I wish you the best!

[1sheepdoggal]

When working dogs and livestock, Ive always found that it is good to have a back up dog, ( or two or ten ) as dogs that are working, ( even simple training sessions) some times can suffer an injury that may lay them up for awhile. Things can happen fast, so like a good girl scout, Im always prepared. I like the term, the more the merrier. Would you be choosing another kelpie, or looking at a BC?

[kajarrel]

At least two dogs are necessary under my current set up. For example, we periodically move the sheep about 1/2 mile or more up a road or trail. At minimum, I need a dog at the front to keep the sheep from running ahead and one behind to keep them moving forward. Like Darci wrote, I've also found having an extra dog or two allows you to rotate dogs to prevent or rest injuries.

 

I'm kind of in a pickle now, however. All my "working" dogs are injured or older. Zoe, my "do everything" dog is 13 and going deaf. Some days she works, some days she doesn't. More frustrating is the fact that she can't really hear me and will, on some occasions (when her "better" ear is facing away from me), run in the opposite direction when I call. As a result, I've been leaning on my 12 year old, Gren, who has an injured or arthritic shoulder (is totally lame each evening after working ). He does a respectable job, but just isn't as fast as he used to be. Funny, sometimes when he's not keeping up, I'll see the sheep moving in the direction I want and I'll see Zoe working them correctly, about 20 feet off in the background. Yeats, my third "working" dog, is 11 1/2 and had a spinal cord infaction a couple years ago or so and can't really help anymore.

 

Because of the number of dogs we had (6), we didn't get any new dogs for quite a while (suggestion 1: choose your dogs carefully).

 

Until last fall. Unfortunately, the (promising) pup we got developed OCD in her shoulder at 6 months and is now on severely limited activity after her shoulder surgery (we'll start her in about 2 weeks again - YAY!!) . . . My second suggestion is, unless you're willing/able to support a large pack or to buy a started dog, is to spread the dogs out over a couple years so that you don't end up in my situation.

 

Kim

[Marilyn T]

I waited too long between my first and second dog, 6 years, but it was due to outside circumstances. I think in order to do justice to each dog, you need probably 3 years between each in age. That gives time to really concentrate on the younger dog, and the older dogs usually need work at that point, not training. That said, some dogs just come by and you can't pass them up.

 

Mine came by this way.... Mac.. born 1988, Sage born '94 (a bit too long between dogs here.) Scott, '97, Lena '99. then one of Lena's littermates came by, couldn't pass her up so another '99 Queen. Snitch I bred off Sage ' 02, and Gin came by unexpectedly as anothe I couldn't pass up in '04. Now Gin's pup Eve '07. Seems like you forget the puppy stage in three years and are willing to go through it again by then.

 

However, there is a huge difference in WORKING a dog and TRAINING a dog. You can work a dog all day. It is good for them. Put them into situations where they need to step up to the plate and help you, but not necessarily where you are training on them. Now that doesn't mean you allow sloppy work from them, just that you are not 'working' on a problem that they might have. It is a job. It needs to get done correctly, but after a couple of tries, usually the sheep will teach the dog what it is doing wrong. Dogs that work properly also can work a lot longer than they can stand up to training. They don't get 'mentally hot' like a dog being trained.

 

One of the ways I create work for a dog on my small operation (9 acres, 30 sheep) is to chute load sheep for things. I set up worming so I have a small chute about 5o yards away from my round pen. Load all sheep in the round pen, and gate sort off three, and take to the chute. Right there, your dog works in tight quarters, must flank off the sheep to allow three out, but hold the others back, and come through onto the three, ignoring the others. Then they have to control the three and get them into a wing in front of the chute, while I open up the guillotine gate. Worm them there, and let out into another field. They learn to relax while I am doing my thing, and then we start all over again. Makes for a lot of dog work, and less stress on the sheep. It is simple enough, once a pup gets a couple of months on her, I can usually use that puppy to do this work. It gives them reason and purpose to what they do. It will teach them to cover, or keep distance. Because it is a job, I can lose my temper and yell, but the dog learns that the world doesn't end. Invariably, once I go through the routine 3 or 4 times, the dog knows the job, and comes out of the sort pen in the proper position to put the sheep into the chute. No needs for commands. By the time you get through 20-30 sheep that way, you are wishing the dog could open and shut the gates too. Everything else they handle. A couple of days ago, wormed 12 head with a friend doing all the dog work, in about 15 minutes. It wasn't a huge time committment, and a lot of good opportunity for a dog to work.

 

This sort of stuff also helps a handler read sheep better, and work with the dog rather than train ON the dog. It really improves the dog's attitude, and relationship with a handler, and it is something that I swear they really FEEL GOOD about themselves afterwards.

 

I got a bit off topic... sorry

[Sue R]

That was terrific, Marilyn, and I'm glad you pointed out the difference between work and training. I have no training stock here at home and so everything is work (that sometimes allows some on the job training opportunities). I do see the difference in my dogs in mental exhaustion between work and training sessions. I guess that's why so many top trainers only do so for a few minutes at a time, with dogs that can work for hours otherwise.

 

Good point!

[Shoofly]

I like having a couple of dogs "in training" (vs already trained up and just needing some work here and there). So many of the best training opportunities involve driving somewhere and i can get more bang for the gasoline buck that way. Also, for novice folks, it's really more about training yourselves than the dogs, so why not get more experience with more dogs?

 

As for timing, i'd prefer a couple of years between dogs but it never seems to work out that way. I have a 10 y.o., 8 y.o., 7 y.o., 4 y.o., 16 months, 8 months and 3 months. I don't really do much with the 8 y.o. any more, i got tired of fighting her over the sheep, so if you take her out, my main working dogs are 10, 7 and 4, so that's not too bad. But all those puppies! It's easy to get too many very quickly, but it's also really easy to all of a sudden find yourself with too few finished dogs. I hope to have someone trained and ready to be my 3rd Open dog when Spottie finally retires in the next year or so. And i'll sell one or two of those youngsters so i have enough time to devote to the ones that stay.

[kajarrel]

This conversation has raised a number of interesting nuances. Again, I'm speaking primarily from a "working" perspective. In that case, the primary "purpose" of the dogs is to safely and efficiently hold and move sheep. So you really trade-off handling equipment for dogs. Therefore, the more fences, chutes, etc. that you have (and fewer sheep, I suppose), the fewer dogs you'll need. In fact, some Cornell sheep people will tell you that a dog isn't necessary. Extending this, the better your dogs' skills, the fewer dogs you'll need. The more challenging sheep you have (e.g., number, age and frequency of lambs), the more dogs you'll need. The more risky, novel and complex situations you face, the more dogs you'll need (b/c as Mariyln mentions, sheep and dogs do learn the "routine"). Maybe even the better the handler's stock sense, the fewer dogs you'll need . . . but I'm not sure about that one.

 

Kim

[Laurae]

As a novice, I love having two dogs to work. I am fortunate to have a capable coming-along youngster to train as well as a seasoned veteran to help me learn how to handle. They are two different things, though I feel like I'm just starting to understand that. I am teaching Taz to work at higher levels (with a bunch of help from others more experienced, of course). It's hard in many ways because neither of us has the experience to instinctively know how to approach a problem (which is why I work with others) and I have definitely let him develop a few bad habits because I had no idea in what ways they would come back to bite us. But in other ways, it's easier for me to run Taz because I am very comfortable with him, and it is a bit more clear to me when he is not doing things correctly so I can correct him more easily and more confidently. With Craig, because he has a lot of training on him, sometimes he is correct and I am asking for the wrong thing (which he ignores because he knows it's not right). Because of that, I am less confident in my corrections and they are thus less effective—and he can run over me. Craig doesn't need training per se, but we need time to work together so I can improve my timing and learn a bit more about cause and effect . The biggest benefit of running Craig, though, is that he helps me to see/feel what "correct work" is. So I feel like I'm learning completely different things with each dog and hopefully by the time I am ready to get my next young dog, I won't be repeating many of the mistakes I've made with Taz.

[Pippin's person]

For us, the decision to add two additional dogs in fairly rapid succession came down to opportunity of a sort (they were available and we liked the parents) and the knowledge that we could, on occasion, send them to "sheep camp" so that they could learn faster and work with someone who knows what they are doing. It's not a perfect set-up as we would all be learning a lot faster with A) our own flock and work and B ) a bit more age spread in the dogs and C) knowledge/experience on either our part or at least one of the dogs'-but it is what it is for now. Each of the boys goes for two week stays with the person we train with every few months.

 

I like having two dogs to work (I work with Hamish and Kyzer)--even though we are all learning at the same time (less optimal perhaps), I learn really different things because they are such different dogs. I think it's helping me to internalize some of the lessons, strategies, and craft and to gain both more dog sense and more sheep sense.

 

At the same time, we do what we can to learn a lot more about livestock management, land/pasture management, fencing, etc. All in the hopes that in a couple of years, we'll be ready to flap our own little wings and have dogs who we understand well enough to be useful in helping us flap...

 

If you have time, money, etc. (all the things Sue mentioned), I think having two dogs to work with is pretty useful.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hey Larurae, Didnt you say once that your Craig and my Lex were brother and sister? If so,....

 

With Craig, because he has a lot of training on him, sometimes he is correct and I am asking for the wrong thing (which he ignores because he knows it's not right

 

This doesnt surprise me. Lex is the same way. Not so mechanical that she'll do whatever you tell her, and will go to the right place on her own. A product Im sure, of #Ben, as I understand he was that way too.

[Smokjbc]

I started out with one dog- she didn't quite make it past simple (and very fast, frantic) gathers and no outruns to speak of. I didn't know how to get her to do an outrun, I spent over a year just trying to get her more than a foot away from the sheep at all times. She may have made me a dog now, but for a beginner,I couldn't have had a worse start. It would have been better if she hadn't wanted to work at all.

 

So I got a second dog, a six month old pup that had been on sheep enough for me to see she was biddable and honest. She taught me a ton about stock sense and how a quiet dog can still be strong. She was my only "real dog" for 6 years when I bred her and kept my Nellie from the litter. By that time, the natural little dog had become a problem for me- I never had to train her really, but I didn't know enough to realize that after a certain age, it's REALLY hard to teach a natural gatherer to drive. So she was fine for cow dog trials on horseback where I could stay with her but even with those, her lack of driving skills (and more so, her lack of willingness to drive- she thought I was CRAZY!)really limited how much I could trial her. I got Nellie going fairly right, she never came to be a stylish sheepdog and wasn't as strong as her mother on cows, but she made up for it in speed, flexibility (as long it was very fast flexibility) and absorbed training like a sponge. She had a big motor and gave you 100% all the time (actually, 200% all the time, which is a real problem when you are trying to do straight crossdrives ). I had her for 3 years when I got Jane and having the two dogs, who were night and day, really helped me grow as a handler. Jane is stylish, sheepy and never wants to make a mistake- she needs a light touch and confidence boosting. But her listening skills and quiet but direct manner with the stock makes her a fun dog to handle when she's having a good, confident day. She's my barely Open dog now, and while we both have her issues, I know that she will do her best to keep us both out of trouble. Nellie is better close at hand but I will say she's never not gotten a job done or failed to find her sheep (even if its straight up the field to them on a big outrun. She can drive me NUTS at a trial though, especially crossdriving- she just over-exaggerates everything and really keeps me on my toes as a handler. With Jane you can kinda "cruise" through a run, with Nellie you have to be three steps ahead of her all the time.

 

Wow, windy as usual- anyways Nellie had some medical issues last year and while she's gotten good comments at sheepdog trials, I know she'll never been precise or consistent enough to be a winner. I'd like to have two dogs to take to trials- I've missed alot of trialing because I didn't want to spend all that $ for travel (no trials are within 5-6 hours of us) to go and run one dog. So I got Jet, Jane is now 5. I will still trial Nellie, just at smaller outrun trials and maybe some AHBA trials for fun.My Jane dog really needs me to have a second dog, she doesn't like to be the "only" dog, she needs time off my picking on her LOL.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I just came in after a grueling workout with Tess. We are both exhausted. I used her as I need to get these items done before it got dark and I had a hr of daylight to do all of this. It has been pouring down rain/hail so I needed to move sheep from one muddy pasture to a drier pasture among other chores.

 

She moved the cattle to one pasture then sorted some ewes from lambs into another pasture. Then she sorted a couple of smaller lambs to put in a stall by themselves. Then, she moved new moms and lambs from 2 stalls to the lower pasture. Then moved the main flock or 30 ewes/50 lambs to the lower pasture. Then she held a couple of sheep so I could worm or give them some shots.

 

Then the ducks needed to be put away and tonight instead of going into their coop they decided to stay in the pond so Tess had to swim to get them out. We have to put them away otherwise the bald eagles eat them in the morning.

 

Yes, I could have used other dogs but it would have taken longer and Tess just seems to read my mind and does what needs to get done. She is awesome in moving lambs and will push them with her nose in the right direction.

 

We just had dinner, Tess and I....bbq chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy and she enjoyed her boneless chicken and some mashed potatoes/gravy...it was the least I could do for her since she just worked her behind off....she is almost 10 now and my right hand. (Jeff just got back from a 3 mile fast run with Tess and Nan before she did the chores so needless to say she was tired before she even started!!)

 

I have numerous other dogs that could have done the work but time was of the essence tonight.

 

Nan, (5) and now second in command.....willing to work and is best friends with Tess. Not to sure about working the cattle and ducks are beneath her. Move fast and but is learning to pace herself. She is a keeper!!

Jackie (3)...learning the ropes and will work the cows and sheep but not ducks. Moves fast and needs to learn to think than react. Tess's daughter and a keeper

Peg (4.5)...great chore dog and works all stock...in training for trials and farm work until sold. She would be a dog if I was working a range operation, I would take as she will work all day

Ray (3)..Jackie's brother....works all stock....still immature but learning the ropes..in training until sold.

Scott (9.5) retired and semi- stiff in hind quarters so use for easy chores and lesson dog. Loves to work ducks and puts them away at night. Best for making sure you give him pets. A real keeper too!

Lucy and Roo (offsite at the moment)

 

Then I have a bunch of pups/yearling in training ......now, those keep me on my toes

 

Diane