Tom's post- bowling for sheep

[kelpiegirl]

I thought this was a good topic, (I REALLY hope you don't mind me putting this hear Tom- if so, let me know, and I will remove it) and one in which I thought some of the collective wisdom could comment:

 

Tom, I am not sure what you are saying by the front of the sheep- do you mean she comes in on them on your side of the sheep?

 

Emma is a 2.5 yo B/C, she has been with sheep now for more then a year, she knows all the basic commands, has a great "lie down" and recall and stop and walk up, also by whistle, I can send her out into our pastures and she will zoom up and bring them all down to the barn, (a dozen montadales)If i want to move the sheep to another field she will zoom out and rustle them up and move them out, she is a great "farm dog" once she is done with her "job" she zooms off and picks up her frizbee and wants to play.

This was how she was till about 6 months ago, I got an 8 yr old trained B/C from a rescue and he is amazing, he knows all his commands and knows more then me about working sheep, I ended up taking Emma and Kipp to lessons, mainly for me to learn, Kipp works great and the instructor was impressed, Emma was put in the round pen and showed great intrest and followed instructions, the lessons have been great for all of us.

Now heres my problem, I put Emma in the round pen with me and 3 sheep(yearlings) and she knows her sides, she lies down on command, she walks up and really does everything you want her to do, the problem is out in the pasture, to start I usually tie Emma and send Kipp on outruns, both sides and a slight drive, (working in a 3/4acre field) I then tie Kipp and then send Emma on an outrun, she usually heads strait for the sheep, I make her lie down, bring her back and stand in front of her and show her where i want her to go, she will usually do this, she will go out and around the tree, which is about 30 yards out and then heads for the front of the flock, she also does this on her "away" side too, to me its like she thinks her way is shorter and the results are the same, the sheep move across the field, how can I get her to go all the way behind the sheep? she will stay on command, should i move behind the sheep and try to get her to come to me? maybe if I get help, someone to push her out on her way to me ? One trainer told me she was a "work smart" dog, she knows what needs to be done and its her work smart way to do it, Kipp has been a big help, she will watch him and when i work him she will follow and help if I let her, Is this a good idea ? Thanks for any Ideas, Tom

[Smokjbc]

In my non-expert opinion,

 

It sounds like this dog has been gathering pastures at home "her way" for a year and the owner didn't realize that she was getting into a bad habit that may be really hard to break. If this were my dog, granted I can't see her for myself, I would walk out with her to round pen outrun length to start. Instead of calling her back when she crosses over, I would down her and push her out around the sheep. By calling her back to his feet, she isn't learning anything useful IMHO, he needs to get closer to the sheep and lie her down as soon as he sees her shoulder drop in to crossover.

 

The thread on "spiraling" a dog out until it learns to to seek that balance point properly would be helpful I think as well, although I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one (I didn't say I was a very bright non-expert ) and feel that the basic- get up there and push her out would be easier for a novice to grasp. I do think the dog needs more at hand balance work where she is keeping a good distance and flanking correctly around the sheep, whatever the method.

 

Once he has a good down and get out on her, he can start stretching that outrun back to "pasture size" SLOWLY, always going back to the distance the dog is right in if she is having trouble. I would only call her off if I was not fast enough to stop her from crossing over- I would still not allow her to bring the sheep but it would be far better to catch that shoulder dropping the second she thinks about crossing over.

[kelpiegirl]

I agree with Jamie- sounds like this dog needs to go back, and learn the basics again.

[Albion Urdank]

>Actually, the dog might be right. It sounds as if in your relatively tight pasture, where there's likely to be pressure, the dog is stopping short at the head of the sheep, which may in fact be the point of balance . The point of balance is not always at 12 O'clock, directly behind the sheep. If she's stopping at the point of balance on the sheeps' heads, ask her to walk up and see how they lift. If they lift directly to you, then the dog stopped in the right spot. If the sheep lifted way off in the wrong direction, then she needed to be further around them (that's how the outrun/lift is normally judged in trials). You could also force her to go all the way behind her sheep if she stops short at the heads, not by walking up to her and pushing her out, but by simply giving her another flank command so that she gets behind the sheep. If she does this and the sheep take off in a direction other than straight to you, then by flanking her around, you released pressure at the point of balance, and so you then must know that she was right in the first place. Does your dog have eye? If she does, then she's probably sensitive to pressure that might draw sheep in a particular direction, and in a small pasture where there's pressure, say from a pen where the sheep are accustomed to being housed, her eye will be drawn out more strongly, which is why she may be stopping at the heads [border collies are by instinct, incidentally, headers; they balance stock by working against the movement of the sheeps' heads]. So I'd say trust your dog to read the sheep right, and correct only after she's proven herself wrong. This means you will also have to read the sheep and the pressure situation before deciding to make a correction. After all, it's better to make a correction before the dog actually makes a mistake.

Cheers,

Albion

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought this was a good topic, (I REALLY hope you don't mind me putting this hear Tom- if so, let me know, and I will remove it) and one in which I thought some of the collective wisdom could comment:

 

Tom, I am not sure what you are saying by the front of the sheep- do you mean she comes in on them on your side of the sheep?

 

Emma is a 2.5 yo B/C, she has been with sheep now for more then a year, she knows all the basic commands, has a great "lie down" and recall and stop and walk up, also by whistle, I can send her out into our pastures and she will zoom up and bring them all down to the barn, (a dozen montadales)If i want to move the sheep to another field she will zoom out and rustle them up and move them out, she is a great "farm dog" once she is done with her "job" she zooms off and picks up her frizbee and wants to play.

This was how she was till about 6 months ago, I got an 8 yr old trained B/C from a rescue and he is amazing, he knows all his commands and knows more then me about working sheep, I ended up taking Emma and Kipp to lessons, mainly for me to learn, Kipp works great and the instructor was impressed, Emma was put in the round pen and showed great intrest and followed instructions, the lessons have been great for all of us.

Now heres my problem, I put Emma in the round pen with me and 3 sheep(yearlings) and she knows her sides, she lies down on command, she walks up and really does everything you want her to do, the problem is out in the pasture, to start I usually tie Emma and send Kipp on outruns, both sides and a slight drive, (working in a 3/4acre field) I then tie Kipp and then send Emma on an outrun, she usually heads strait for the sheep, I make her lie down, bring her back and stand in front of her and show her where i want her to go, she will usually do this, she will go out and around the tree, which is about 30 yards out and then heads for the front of the flock, she also does this on her "away" side too, to me its like she thinks her way is shorter and the results are the same, the sheep move across the field, how can I get her to go all the way behind the sheep? she will stay on command, should i move behind the sheep and try to get her to come to me? maybe if I get help, someone to push her out on her way to me ? One trainer told me she was a "work smart" dog, she knows what needs to be done and its her work smart way to do it, Kipp has been a big help, she will watch him and when i work him she will follow and help if I let her, Is this a good idea ? Thanks for any Ideas, Tom

[1sheepdoggal]

Albion. I wish you'd post more often. The few Ive read that you've posted read very well, are easy to understand and apply, as well as being spot on. Please, grace us with your insight more often. I especially enjoyed this last one, it made me think and reminded me to look, rather than simply see.

[juliepoudrier]

Albion makes some good points. I also think that you may just be trying to send her too far too fast. If she can do it well in the round pen, then what you need to figure out is what the difference is between round pen and field. The obvious one is distance. And when the distance and pressure are great, heading up the middle may well be a default. I had two like that and I just needed to shorten distances and make sure I had appropriate sheep in a work area without a lot of undue pressure. One thing I did not want to do is push them out, mainly because their dam is a very wide runner, and the last thing I want to do is create that when it's already in there gentically-speaking and could show up later as the pups mature. The next obvious is different pressures and draws, as Albion explained. Yesterday I was working a youngster who certainly can run out fine at a longer distance. We were in a small field and the draw was really heavy to the top corner (behind me and to the right as I was facing the sheep). I sent this youngster to the left, which was away from the draw. When the sheep started to move, they headed toward the draw. The pup crossed over in front of them to stop them. In this case she wasn't really being wrong in her mind because she was doing what she needed to do to stop the sheep from getting away. When I sent to the right, she was covering the draw and instead would stop a little short. Again correct if she wanted to bring the sheep to me given the pressure and the draw.

 

You say in the round pen she knows her sides, etc. But does she do little outruns (the length of the round pen) correctly? If not, then you definitely need to move things back to a smaller area and make sure she isn't running up the middle. Also. stepping in to her as she sets off just adds pressure and more often defeats your purpose by making the dog speed up and get tighter as she tries to get around you. When you send her, step *away* from her to open up that side and release the pressure on her to encourage her to go around.

 

J.

[TDearstine]

Thank you all so much for your very informative posts, I am sorry it has taken me a little while to reply, work, lambs, fencing, kids, you name it, it has happend in the last week, So many of your posts are right on the money, and I will be digesting them over the couple days, Me being very novice at this has probably not helped her, Smokjbc is right, I let her work the pastures her way probably to long, now that I have my older dog and know a little more from both him and lessons hopefully I can head off her bad habits, she does have eye, though uses it sparingly, she uses her speed usually to head them off and usually eyes the leader to block, I have been taking her back into the round pen and making her do small outruns there and trying the step away also, I have been told that before by my instructor but seem to forget once i get home, (being a teacher we make horrible students) thank you all, Tom

[gail]

Hi Tom,

 

If I am reading your original post correctly, it sounds like Emma was doing well prior to when you got Kip and then started running straight up the field, crossing over and generally acting a bit over-excited. Also in your original post, you describe her as "zooming", which would make me think that in general, she is a fairly excitable dog. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something that you may need to manage.

 

It sounds like you are tying her up to do out-runs with Kip & she knows it & can see you & Kip & the sheep, then taking her out to do out-runs, it would not surprise me if a young, excitable dog would run straight up the field.

 

Maybe changing your management of her so she is calmer would help & allow her to think.

 

Just a thought...........gail