Reviews on DVD

[Dixie_Girl]

I just ordered the DVD Come Bye and Away by Glyn Jones. Has anyone seen it? What did you think of it? I have it set up to resume Jackson's herding lessons next week and was hoping this would help.

 

Also I ordered a 54" working wand. Is there anything I could or should do to help Jackson not be afraid of it? Or should it only be used when we are working sheep?

 

Thanks for any info or help!

 

P.S. Jackson had the wand used during training before and didn't show any "fear" of it. Don't know why I even asked!,,,,,,,

[Shoofly]

Derek Scrimgeour's puppy DVD is waaaaaaay better. I've never gotten much use out of the others you're talking about.

[juliepoudrier]

I haven't seen the Glyn Jones video, but I can second Robin on the fact that the Derek Scrimgeour DVD is great!

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

I have all three of his videos. They're great as far as the entertainment value goes, and as far as the scenery goes. I didn't learn a whole lot about training my dog from it though - as I need a more "this is what you do, and this is what you do when" type approach coupled with a how and why. I just marked them up as interesting to watch, but don't depend on them for learning specifically how to train my dog.

 

Then again, I watched them before I got my dog. If I went back now the things I might take from them would be different.

 

As for the stock stick, my crook is 54" and I find it rather unweildly, and plan to saw it off. My stock stick is much shorter, and easier to use. I don't have much use for it other than when we're working stock... except maybe to wave it at the little terror down the street as he comes charging me and my dogs.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

I just ordered the DVD Come Bye and Away by Glyn Jones. Has anyone seen it? What did you think of it? I have it set up to resume Jackson's herding lessons next week and was hoping this would help.

 

Also I ordered a 54" working wand. Is there anything I could or should do to help Jackson not be afraid of it? Or should it only be used when we are working sheep?

 

Thanks for any info or help!

 

P.S. Jackson had the wand used during training before and didn't show any "fear" of it. Don't know why I even asked!,,,,,,,

The Glyn Jones video is good. Don't know your experience level working stock, but, in my opinion, the best thing you can get out of most of these videos, or watching an experienced handler working a young and/or inexperienced dog, is how the handler positions himself in relation to the stock and dog to get the response he wants. It's ABSOLUTELY the most essential part of training: when to move away from the dog to give him the freedom to work; when to move toward him to apply pressure; when to allow him to fetch the sheep toward you; where stock, dog and handler should be to help the dog take the down. And all this is happening while everything is in motion.

 

Once again, depending on your experience level, the "wand" is going to be a hinderance to both you and your dog because, while this rodeo is going on, things will be happening so fast that you won't know how it should be used. You'll stick it in front of the dog when it should be on the other side, or try to push him off the sheep with it, or be unknowingly waving it around confusing the dog, or some such ineffective, or even worse, detremental thing. In my early days, I carried that thing because I thought I was supposed to, since everyone else seemed to. I, however, didn't have a clue about how to use it. And when I did use it, it was usually wrong. You're better off without it until you learn where YOU should be.

 

By the way, personally, when I get one of those long ones at Tractor Supply, I cut it off to about 48 inches or so because it's easier to handle.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

I reiterate, all these videos are helpful IF you carefully watch how the handler moves in relation to the dog and the stock.

 

Regards

[Shoofly]

What i really, really like about Derek's DVD is how he uses his voice. It's worth studying.

[Valhalla]

And of course, Denise Wall's DVD "In The Mind of a Champion" is a must have in my book! Someone with limited herding experience might not fully understand all of Scott's and Alasdair's descriptions of why they did certain things during their runs, but it will definately be an excellent learning tool!

[Carson Crazies]

I got that one Christine, and I LOVED LOVED LOVED it. I'm planning to get Derek Scrimgeour's video too.

[Sue R]

I "third" Robin's and Julie's recommendations of Derek Scrimgeour's "The Shepherd's Pup" DVD (and I also enjoy and benefit from his "A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies" but the puppy video is more complete and inclusive).

 

I also must compliment Denise Wall's "In the Mind of a Champion". It is amazing and educational to listen to Scott Glen and Alasdair MacRae as they explain and assess their runs at the Bluegrass.

 

As for GR's comments about the handler's position - they remind me a lot of Jack Knox's approach. I have been to a couple of arena cattle trials and found handler position to be one aspect of handling that definitely separated the best handlers from all the others.

 

Bill Reed was an outstanding example of this at one trial I attended. He was calm, quiet, and always in just the right place with a minimum of movement. You see that with a person who sheds well, also.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Valhalla:

And of course, Denise Wall's DVD "In The Mind of a Champion" is a must have in my book! Someone with limited herding experience might not fully understand all of Scott's and Alasdair's descriptions of why they did certain things during their runs, but it will definately be an excellent learning tool!

Originally posted by Carson Crazies:

I got that one Christine, and I LOVED LOVED LOVED it.

Hmmmm. While I found this video interesting, my opinion is that it is of no practical use for someone trying to learn how to train a dog on stock. It's really a curiosity, not a training video. I've seen it twice, with the most interesting action that of MacRae's dog heading a breaking single and turning it WHILE BACKING UP. You won't see that every day.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Sue R:

As for GR's comments about the handler's position - they remind me a lot of Jack Knox's approach.

There's a good reason for that.

 

 

Originally posted by Sue R:

I have been to a couple of arena cattle trials and found handler position to be one aspect of handling that definitely separated the best handlers from all the others.

But, more to the point, it separates the best TRAINERS from the rest.

 

Regards

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with GR regarding stock sticks. I generally don't even train with a stick and if I do have one, it's more for affecting the sheep (sorting, etc.) than for training the dog. In fact, the other day I was trying to catch a lamb and it took a few minutes before I realized that I could go get a crook to help with that endeavor. In experienced hands, training wands can be useful tools, but for a novice it's just one more thing getting in the way of learning how to read stock, read your dog, and work your dog, IMO.

 

As for the utility of training videos, there is no substitute for a good mentor who can be right there to show you and correct you. I enjoyed Derek's videos because his training philosophy is similar to what I aspire to. I think the usefulness of any of those videos for the beginner lies in seeing how things should go (that is, what good work and good training looks like). I do think a more advanced trainer/handler, can learn a lot from watching them, though, as they introduce different training philosophies/approaches (and they're just plain entertaining).

 

J.

[Sue R]

I think one value to Denise's video is not that it teaches you how to train but that it gives you insight into the many complexities that come together when working a dog on stock.

 

The video and commentary show that's not just a simple matter of sending a dog and then telling it where to be and what to do, and that the stock will react in an easily predictable manner.

 

It shows the complex interactions between many, many factors - time of day, whether the stock are hungry or full, type of stock, individuals within the group, draws like the exhaust or other animals, terrain, weather, how your dog tends to work, and the list goes on.

 

I have spoken to casual spectators at trials whose comment is often, "It's amazing how that dog knows just what to do." They don't have a clue what is involved in the partnership and communication between dog and handler (and the interaction between dog, handler, and stock).

 

As a novice, this DVD gives me an insight into the subtleties of what is going on during these runs and within the mind of two superior handlers running two outstanding dogs.

 

Rather than a "curiosity", I'd call it an "eye-opener", and for that reason alone consider it educational.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I was offline for about a week and totally missed how to get the "Mind of a Champion" video.

 

If this is anything like sitting quietly and listening to handler "chatter" under the handler's tent, I'd say there's a great deal one could get out of it. I can take away a lot from just watching someone like Scott or Alisdair run a dog - heck, I'm at a level (is there any level where it's not true though?) where I can learn something from watching anyone experienced at handling dogs and livestock.

 

I don't think anything can take the place of going to trials and watching one run after another but this sounds like a great second best. So, how do I get one? Quick, while I've got money burning a hole in my pocket (and Patrick still owes me a b-day present, lol).

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Sue R:

Rather than a "curiosity", I'd call it an "eye-opener", and for that reason alone consider it educational.

Curiosity (N):

An object that arouses interest, as by being novel or extraordinary. Something unusual -- perhaps worthy of collecting.

 

Regards

[Dixie_Girl]

Thanks all for your input. Carol Anne Tholkes (Herbert Baileys daughter) is who I am training with. She had me use the wand to get Jackson to turn the opposite direction he insisted on going. (he was circling the sheep). She suggested I get one.

 

As far as my experience goes, I have had dogs of all sorts my whole life and trained them to do what ever it was I wanted. I have been around cattle and I have owned horses. But I have NEVER had the experience of working two species together! In other words, I am as green as turnip tops when it comes to this. I just want to do the best I can and get the most out of Jackson and hopefully not ruin him in the process!

 

Thanks all again for your advice. I will check out the video In a champions mind because I think seeing and hearing what is SUPPOSE to happen could be helpful.

 

Jackson resumes training Tues. so I will definitly let y'all know how he does!

[Dixie_Girl]

P.S. Next time I believe I will ask about a video BEFORE I order it!

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

P.S. Next time I believe I will ask about a video BEFORE I order it!

You'll like the video and will learn something from it.

 

 

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

She had me use the wand to get Jackson to turn the opposite direction he insisted on going. (he was circling the sheep). She suggested I get one.

Sounds like she's showing you how to use it properly, but your body and arm could do the same thing. If it works and doesn't confuse you and/or your dog, have at it. Your trainer has seen how you handle yourself during the "rodeo", so maybe it's not the distraction it was when I and many others started.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

Sometimes dogs need a bit more than just body pressure to get the point through to them ("hard headed", too focused on the stock to notice you, likes to beat you to the right spot, etc) and having a tool available that they "respect" (and increases your reach) aids in their learning as long as you use the tool properly (i.e. timing and position) and use it only as needed.

 

Mark

[Dixie_Girl]

You'll like the video and will learn something from it.

 

Well I guess any exposure is good!

 

Mark, that is exactly what Jackson is, hard-headed! He will try to do it his way, even when he knows what I want! Someone, I think Bill Coburn, told me that a hard-headed dog is the worst to train, but he thought once they were trained, they worked better and were more dependable. I don't know, we'll see!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

[apologies for minor threadjacking]

 

dixie girl, I'm sending you a PM - it's the only way I can communicate right now!

[Dixie_Girl]

To all who responded earlier, I finally got the vid today! I watched it. And I have to say, it did give me some insight to the probs I had with Jackson on his last training. In the vid Glyn took a young pup about 5mos to a field with a couple of trained dogs. It was a very large field. He let the pup loose and used his trained dogs to keep the sheep from bolting over/through the fence, but let the pup enjoy chasing the sheep. He let the pup get tired and then he brought him in. He said he would not put the pup on sheep again till about 10mos. That was in a round pen and he just kept the pup from charging at the sheep helter skelter. Then he took a dog that was the same age as Jackson is and really started putting the preasure on as far as commands and such.

Now, I think what happened is when Jackson was about 5mos old I took him to Bill Coburn's as he is the closest and first "sheep dog" person I had met. We put Jackson on the sheep and he did just like the pup in vid did. However, Bill did not like the idea of Jackson chasing his bred sheep like the maniac he was! And now knowing the kind of dog he is, I think this is what did it for him. (Please note I am in no way, shape or form blaming Bill! He is a great guy and has some very nicely trained dogs!)We just didn't know how this was going to affect Jackson. I think being the way he is, he has it in his head that correction=leave the sheep alone. I could be wrong. I will speak to Carol Anne about it this weekend at the trial.

 

So what do y'all think? Is this asumption possible? Or probable? Or way out in left field and I am grasping at straws!?

[echo44]

where is the best palce to order bc video's?

[Dixie_Girl]

I ordered mine from Border Collies in Action. There may be other places.