Righting some Wrongs

[Kelly123]

I have spoilt Ollie, given him too much humaness, and not enough dogness so now ive got to revert back. He started agility today, (just a catch up on obedience though this week, next week intro to some jumps) and things that ive been doing have become realised to me. things i just never took any notice of before. He has been the dominating pack member at home, and i didnt even notice the change.

 

e.g, whenever i wash up, ollie gets a toy and drops it at my feet, and i kick it for him to get. Without even thinking about it ive allowed him to inniciate play, so therefore let him take charge. This has happened in many ways without me realising what i was doing, and i think this is probably a big reason for his stubborness at the park. He has stopped seeing me as his dominent leader, so is kind of challenging me. I cant believe ive been stupid enough to let so much training go to waste.

 

At his old training class he was a star, i was so proud of him, and to day, he was just so stubborn, ( and oh the shame, he got bannashed during the induction for barking too much, my bro had to take him to another room cause noone could hear the trainer), and it just took him about 15mins, to get all of his attention on me.

 

So i came home today with the task ahead of me to become pack leader again, to regain all of the respect i had before and to get my well behaved dog back in time for agility next week.

So far it has gone brilliantly and i already have him back to walking completely to heel again, and not lunging at chicken bones on the street. ( a bad behavior that i had accepted disgracfully). We went in a 1 hour walk he pulled only once and with the help of a rattle bottle to reinforce my command, he heft every bit of stray food on the road. I only had to use the bottle once and he knew the score.

 

Washing up this evening he tried everything he could think of to get me to kick his toy, jumping, barking, whinning, tipping his water bowl over, EVERYTHING, but i ignored and he gave in and in the end layed down, with his chewy rope.

 

So so far this is going well, and hopefully by the end of the week i will have my good boy back. I just feel so stupid that i let it happen, and so guilty that i have to keep shunning him.

 

Just thought id share my story. Any comments appreciated!

[dogsofmenace]

Its really easy to let your guard slip with these guys, especially if you're doing something else. You can be sitting there watching TV and they come up and nudge you to pet them, and drop a ball in your lap for you to throw, and you do because you don't really think about it. Its good that you've realized what you've been doing so now you can be more conscious. I know I have to remind myself constantly not to do things like that. Keep up the good work! I'm sure it'll pay off.

[Sue R]

It's always better late than never! While a smart dog learns good things quickly, it seems he/she can learn "bad" things just as fast or faster, and it takes longer to overcome a bad habit than to learn a good one.

 

We don't always realize it but, for better or for worse, we are always training.

 

I, too, am very culpable of doing things for my dogs without realizing that they are calling the shots and I am not. Thank you for your post, which is a reminder to me to do better by my dogs.

 

Don't feel guilty - you've made mistakes out of love and you both will get over it.

[Kelly123]

thanks for the replys, so far so good today, we have been on our wallk and he was still going to heel, and came back on 1st recall at park, i think i shocked him yesterday!

[mum24dog]

So i came home today with the task ahead of me to become pack leader again, to regain all of the respect i had before and to get my well behaved dog back in time for agility next week.

 

Hi Kelly.

Please ditch the outdated notion that you have to be "Pack Leader" and that your dog is trying to "dominate " you.

Dogs do what is rewarding for them, that's all. They don't have any ulterior motive.

He wants to play - you throw a ball. Great. That worked once so try again, and again, and again...... Collies are experts at that.

He is a dog, you are a human. He doesn't see you as part of his "pack".

An excellent book to read on the misconceptions surrounding the nature of "packs" is "Dogs" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

Your relationship with your dog will be much more postive if you recognise that and work on making the reward your dog gets for doing what you want greater than the reward for doing what he wants to do.

Instead of punishing him with a rattle bottle, make him want to cooperate. Yes, punishment works up to a point, but do you really want your dog to do as you want because he is scared not to?

If I were you, I'd try and find a trainer who uses positive methods rather than punishment if your current one is into rattle bottles and rank reduction programmes.

Have you ever tried clicker training? No better way of making the dog think it was all his idea, but you need to change your own mindset for it to work.

 

Pam

[Northof49]

Hi Kelly.

Please ditch the outdated notion that you have to be "Pack Leader" and that your dog is trying to "dominate " you.

Dogs do what is rewarding for them, that's all. They don't have any ulterior motive.

He wants to play - you throw a ball. Great. That worked once so try again, and again, and again...... Collies are experts at that.

He is a dog, you are a human. He doesn't see you as part of his "pack".

An excellent book to read on the misconceptions surrounding the nature of "packs" is "Dogs" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

That is a really great book.

 

Two other books I always recommend for dog-human relationships is Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash" and Suzanne Clothers's "If Dogs Could Pray Bones Would Rain From the Sky", although with my guys it would be Sheep

[Root Beer]

Well said, Pam!

 

I second and third what she said.

[Bo Peep]

I've been reading this and I don't see anything wrong with tossing the ball. Your dog just wants to play. I don't think it's a pack leader thing. Personally, when I'm cooking, I don't like the dogs in the kitchen, so I have a "no puppies in the kitchen rule" and they sit by the carpeted area. There's no reason they should be looking for a hand out. Now when I take a shower, I don't think it's any "pack leader" thing that they like to be in the bathroom with me. I think they just like to be where I am. Does this make sense to anyone? I used to fold laundry and roll up a pair of sock, then throw a ball, just thought it was part of being an owner of a border collie. Just a quirk that went with this wonderful breed.

[Kelly123]

dont get me wrong, i love playing with ollie, this was just one example! I have been having some behavior problems with ollie, and this was just one thing that had started to contribute towards it!

[mbernard2424]

Been there, done that, won't go there again. I run a pretty tight ship and my dogs are expected to follow rules. My male, Gel, did (and still tries sometimes) to call the shots about play time, sheep time, etc. When I realized what was going on and tried to put a stop to it, he started to shut down on me. It took a long time for our relationship to become whole again. I spend a lot of time playing with my dogs, but I initiate the games and end them. No, I am not the pack leader, but I'm the provider of food and shelter and if I were to let the dogs run the show, I can only imagine what life would be like ... there'd be sheep in the house, balls covering the floors and pizza for dinner every night!

[dogsofmenace]

Ah, I do agree with the people saying that you don't have to dominate your dogs. But I also think that if you don't set boundaries for them, they'll walk all over you. If they decide when you play and you always comply, then it won't make any difference if its the middle of the night or if your busy. I don't see anything wrong with doing it every once in a while, but if you always toss the ball or pet the dog when they throw a ball in your lap or nudge you, you can have a problem.

 

There are several good examples of this kind of thing in Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of the Leash". One example was a lady with a border collie who would always through the ball for him if he wanted her to. When she didn't, he went into a complete barking frenzy with frustration that went on for tens of minutes. His low tolerance for frustration then translated into other parts of his life to the point where he actually bit his owner. There were several other extreme examples in her book and your case probably isn't nearly as bad, but its an important reminder to not always give your dogs what they want just because they said they wanted it.

 

Its not about dominance. But I do think its about being a leader. Provide them with safety, food, shelter, happiness, but still decide when and when not to do things.

[Root Beer]

I think that whether or not it is going to work for you to allow your dogs to initiate games, or if you are going to run a tight ship, etc. has a lot to do with your own personal style.

 

I allow my dogs to start games. I allow them to end them. I also start them. I also end them. I keep things pretty fluid around here and it works for us. I make it a point to make sure that my dogs know that they earn good things by following the rules and listening when I give them direction. I also allow them plenty of "at ease" time, and none of them are any the worse for it. For us that has become the rule structure.

 

Sure, there are times when they want to play, and my reaction is "not now", but there are also times when I say, "good idea - let's play!"

 

I have a great job, but it brings me stress. I love my husband, but marriage is stressful. Keeping my house clean and the bills paid is stressful. I love having an area of my life where I can be laid back and free form and for me that's my interaction with my dogs. And this doesn't mean they run willy-nilly and just do whatever they want anytime they want (like the middle of the night!)

 

For example, I have trained all of them to wait at the door on a "stay" cue. I can trust both Speedy and Dean, who sometimes go to work with me, to hold that stay while I open the door to the office to make sure there is no traffic in the parking lot before sending them out to the car. But I only ask for a stay at the door at home about 10% of the time for training purposes. The rest of the time, they can go first if they want.

 

I've heard that if you aren't 100% consistent, a dog can't learn to obey when asked to do something, but I've simply not found that to be the case. I've found that they understand the framework I've been using. If I give direction to wait, they do it. If I leave the option to go ahead, that's fine. It works for us.

 

I respect those who prefer a more structured pack management style.

 

But I'm so glad that it can be more relaxed for those of us who prefer it that way.

[Shetlander]

I've heard that if you aren't 100% consistent, a dog can't learn to obey when asked to do something, but I've simply not found that to be the case. I've found that they understand the framework I've been using. If I give direction to wait, they do it. If I leave the option to go ahead, that's fine. It works for us.

 

But Kristine, you probably are 100% consistent (or as close as humanly possible) when you ask and expect your dogs to do something. I'm with you as far as not wanting or finding that I need to be "in control" all the time. I usually pet my dogs when they nuzzle me. If I say no for whatever reason, they will subside. My sheltie, who is the most submissive dog I've ever had, is incredibly "demanding" about wanting to be petted. I don't see the correlation between asking to be petted and being dominant. Same with games. I usually start them and all the good fetch toys are out of Quinn's reach (most of the time). But I let him tell me when he needs a break or has had enough. And I let him start games with me if I'm in the mood and have the time.

 

I think you're right that it often comes down to individual preferences and what works for one person may not for another. At work today, I decided to let the dogs have a quick pee break off leash, after making sure the place was pretty deserted. When I opened my office door, Quinn made no effort to follow me, instead preparing to settle into a down as he always does to wait for my return. When I told him he could come, his eyes lit up and he bounded out the door and down the hall ahead of me. His eyes glowed with excitement. Such a HUGE treat I was giving him When we came in, he ran ahead of me and around the corner out of sight. However, I found him waiting in the hall. As soon as he saw me, he turned and cantered back to the office, just full of himself. He was so thrilled for the priviledge which only comes once in a while. But he behaved perfectly and the next time we headed outside, he waited for me to call him and leash him, before we headed out. Quinn knows the rules about the office which is that he needs to wait for instructions from me before leaving the room. There is no such rule at home because I don't need one.

 

Now the Lhasa probably could use a more rigid application of rules 24/7 but that isn't my style. We get by anyway.

[mum24dog]

Some dogs need more rules than others, but it doesn't much matter what the rules are as long as the dog understands what is expected.

And some people have more of a need to control than others.

It's getting the balance right that's the tricky part.

Even with dogs that do need rules, there can be different reasons.

Kye our BC is very headstrong and will take instant advantage if he spots a relaxation of the rules.

Ross our BC mix is a very worried and unsure dog who is afraid of getting things wrong (not my doing). He appreciates the definite structure to his life that rules give him.

Having said that, we don't have many rules - should have more, I know.

 

Pam

[Kelly123]

All of this feedback is great, Thankyou!

 

I should say that when i wrote the first post, i was very frustrated and it was more of a rant!

 

I do not want to completely dominate ollie, i love it when he comes to me for cuddles and games, and love the play with him. The toy thing had just become very consistant, and if i didnt play when he wanted he would up the anty all the time with the attention seeking. Thats when i had to step up and make it more equal. Im pleased to say its working. If he now comes to me to play and im busy, he accepts this, and lays down and plays alone.

 

 

"root beer"

 

"Sure, there are times when they want to play, and my reaction is "not now", but there are also times when I say, "good idea - let's play!"

 

This is where i needed to get back to and now i am!

 

"mbernard2424"

 

"My male, Gel, did (and still tries sometimes) to call the shots about play time, sheep time, etc. When I realized what was going on and tried to put a stop to it, he started to shut down on me."

 

This was my problem, because i was leeting him get away with to much he had tryed to be in charge when we were out, and started to ignore my recall, im glad to say after two days of intensive recall training( which ollie has obviously loved ) he is now back to normal with that too!

[JohnLloydJones]

Please ditch the outdated notion that you have to be "Pack Leader" and that your dog is trying to "dominate " you.

This whole "Alpha" / "Pack Leader" thing has generated a lot of strange notions. Dogs have very fluid social relationships and most certainly do look for a "leader" in some situations (think prey hunting, for example).

 

 

He is a dog, you are a human. He doesn't see you as part of his "pack".

Exactly how a dog sees us is an interesting topic. The whole bonding between dogs and people has come about because we satisfy some needs for each other. In the process of becoming domesticated, we have selected for behaviours that suit us. Aggressive and uncooperative dogs were culled; playful and biddable dogs were kept and bred. We treat them like our children and the dogs we have selected, get pleasure from being "mothered" by us. That means that when my dog looks up at me, she sees part parent, part leader. Yes, she know I smell funny and I don't walk and run like her, but dogs take things as they are and don't get all philosophical. As to whether you want use the word "pack" or no is up to you; just don't put into the word more than it can carry,

[mum24dog]

As to whether you want use the word "pack" or no is up to you; just don't put into the word more than it can carry,

 

Agreed. The problem is that many people still attach an erroneous idea of a rigid heirarchy to the term so I think it's best avoided.

I also think it gives some people a buzz to see themselves as the "Alpha" in control of a pack of "wild" animals. After all, so many people claim that dogs are no more than wolves in disguise.

 

Pam

[Kelly123]

I also think it gives some people a buzz to see themselves as the "Alpha" in control of a pack of "wild" animals.

 

This is very true, i have met some people like this and it really is ridiculous! Re-reading my post i can see how my wording was a little extreme!!

[JohnLloydJones]

...an erroneous idea of a rigid hierarchy...

 

Dogs (and the wolves we believe they descend from) have highly developed social skills that allows them to maintain a fluid pack structure yet function well when the situation demands it. One moment, Senneca and I are just good buddies messing around together, the next -- say crossing the road or running an agility course -- I assert leadership and she is happy to respond. I get a bit frustrated by people using the NILIF principle to extremes. Hey, if your dog respects you as the leader, you can be relaxed about it most of the time. Your dog can switch on when you're working (sheep, running agility or whatever) and then switch off and goof around when you're done.

[mum24dog]

I get a bit frustrated by people using the NILIF principle to extremes.

 

Some people like rules though, don't they? Saves having to think.

 

(Just a general observation - not aimed at anyone on here.)

 

Pam

[gilli and jago]

Personally I’m a great fan of simple common sense….

[Kelly123]

Personally I’m a great fan of simple common sense….

 

 

[dogsofmenace]

As I've been rereading this thread I realize that my posts may make it seem like I'm a NILIF Nazi, which I'm really not! We had a tennis ball obsessed golden foster who would repeatedly through tennis balls at people and bark at them if they wouldn't throw the ball. Not a dog you would throw the ball with if they brought it to you. One of my dogs doesn't play much-so if she brings me a toy to play with, GREAT! Let's play! You just have to know the dog.

[mum24dog]

As I've been rereading this thread I realize that my posts may make it seem like I'm a NILIF Nazi

 

I don't think that.

The principle has its place, but if the only problem you have is a dog that is too pushy about one thing, there's no need to apply it across the board - as you obviously don't.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

I don't think that.

The principle has its place, but if the only problem you have is a dog that is too pushy about one thing, there's no need to apply it across the board - as you obviously don't.

 

Pam

 

I agree with this, too. I've used NILIF successfully with Dean in certain contexts. When we first adopted him, he thought it appropriate to try to dive into bowls of food as I was preparing the dog's meals. For the first month he was here I hand fed him in a separate room and used those meals to work his basic training exercises. The result was a dog who had his basic training exercises down pat, and is content to wait with all four feet on the floor as I prepare meals and wait for his turn to be served his meal (which is last for now because he is currently the youngest). And I never had to give a single correction, nor set myself up in a power struggle with him.

 

At the exact same time, though, he had free access to the other dogs for play, and when he wasn't "in training", he was permitted to just be a dog.

 

I really like the NILIF approach to specific problems where the dog is pushy, but I've found that I tend to save it for more "extreme" specific problems, and then "fade" the technique as quickly as possible.