evaluating dogs at a clinic

[Laurae]

With all the recent clinic talk, I have a question:

Has anyone ever been to a clinic where you felt the clinician read your dog wrong? For instance, perhaps the clinician did something to elicit an atypical response that took the dog the rest of the clinic time to work through and the clinician thought that response indicated something you didn't agree with. Is this very unlikely?

I mean, obviously I understand that clinicians are very experienced and know what they're doing, yet no one is perfect. This is hypothetical and I'm just wondering if it's practically unheard of or does tend to happen from time to time...

[Marilyn T]

A clinician, usually sees stuff you don't. Frankly, that is why you pay them money for their expertise. They usually have higher standards of work ethic for a dog than most people paying for their advice. Also, until you have trained one dog to the Open level, you don't know exactly what you need to train early on in order to make the whole dog. That can lead to your scenario. Hopefully, the clinician is a successful open handler, who has trained multiple dogs to the open level. Be careful of the clinician who has bought trained dogs and been successful with those.

 

In my opinion, most people go into a clinic thinking they know what they want to work on...be it driving, inside flanks, not stopping, stretching the outrun blah blah blah. You set out to show the dog to the clinician, and low and behold, something that you haven't noticed is the first thing that 'needs to be addressed'. You might never have noticed that your dog always sliced that flank, or starts their lift at 3 or 9 o'clock. Maybe you are satisfied with the results you are already getting in that area. Now the clinician isn't necessarily ignoring what you want to work on, but sees that no mater what you want, these things really need to be cleaned up before you go ahead with what you want to do. They want to make sure your foundation is stable before they build on it. It is their duty to address that problem. If they ignore some of the basic skills your dog needs the foundation will crack and major problems can arise in your training program with that dog. The bottom line of a clinic, is to help you train your dogs to a better level. They feel that they cannot overlook step one, or two, in order to work on step three which is what you ask about. The joy of a clinic is that there are dogs present at all stages of training. You will most likely not end up working on your original intent, but somebody will during that clinic, and you will be able to see how it is dealt with on their dogs. You will also likely see dogs working on stuff a couple of months in your future.

 

Another thing, most trainers of the caliber to be giving clinics will not put up with a dog being in the wrong frame of mind. It might not be the problem in your mind, because at home, where you train, maybe everything works out okay. You compensate, the sheep compensate, your dog gets to do a do-over! At a clinic, when a dog is in the wrong frame of mind, not much good work will get done. Thus, the clinician works on getting the dog into the correct frame of mind. You might have continually adjusted yourself to live with that frame of mind, therefore do not agree with where the clinician is headed. These dogs are our babies, and we often cut them slack or offer them the chance to do it over again, instead of correcting. This can lead to the dog not taking a handler seriously. Then, when corrected, that dog will often pout at a clinic when they cannot get away with stuff they do at home. Very frustrating for both handler, and clinician, but alas, it needs to be addressed.

 

Now I will clarify that if you feel something is absolutely wrong for your dog, feel free to voice that opinion, and walk away. I have a personal policy to watch a training clinic before I ever enter one anymore. You will get to see the methods, and see if they fit in with your style.

[red russel]

Not necessarily wrong but the clinician sees what he or she sees at that moment. I've been working with a top notch trainer and handler with my dog for over a year. He has gone to her for three months of training during that time. I don't expect the clinician to know my dog as well as my regular trainer nor to provide me with a game plan for the future. I'm hoping to pick up a few new tools for my bag and to, perhaps, gain new insight from a different perspective. If I may suggest, I've attended 3 or 4 Kathy Knox clinics. Not only is she wonderful but the format of her clinic allows for a tremendous learning experience.

 

That said, I did have a clinician provide feedback and advice that was dead wrong. I just smiled and said thank you. We did the exercise at the clinic because this particular dog is pretty much a knuckle head so I was fairly confident that anything we did for 20 minutes wasn't going to sink it or set us back. But I have a young, less confident dog that I'm very careful with. 20 bad minutes could set us back a lot. So with him, to keep us out of trouble, I won't go to a clinic unless it is somebody at Kathy's level. We are our dog's caretakers. It is our responsibility to keep them out of trouble. Excellent advice to audit a clinic if you are unsure.

 

I agree with Marilyn... the greatest value of the clinic may not be what happens with your dog but what you observe from other dog/handler teams.

[Sue R]

I think Marilyn gave terrific advice. Being the novice that I am, I have found myself going to clinics, with my own expectations of what my dog and I needed to work on. The clinician quickly noted that there were foundation issues that needed fixing and was experienced enough and honest enough to tell me so and have me work on those things instead. It's very humbling when that happens but the best thing that could happen for my dog and myself if we wish to truly progress. Jack Knox is a perfect example of a clinician that will do this.

 

That said, I have been to a clinic where the clinician said I needed to do a couple of things that were, in my opinion, both dangerous for my dog and would prove disastrously counterproductive if tried. I simply don't go to that clinician any more. I think the same thing could be said for a trainer - if their approach or method isn't right for you and/or your dog, find another trainer. Anyone can hang their shingle out as a trainer or clinician, but that doesn't make them qualified to do so.

 

I do believe I have experienced what you describe but it's also generally been because my young dog is entirely different at a clinic than at home or at lessons. He is like two different dogs and I am not convinced that we make any progress at a clinic, while my other dog and I do. Yet, I realize that he and I need to "get over it" and be able to work under different circumstances.

 

I do think that, for some of us, it can be very difficult to know if a trainer or clinician's method will be beneficial or detrimental, particularly if your experience is limited. I'm thankful to people I respect who will be honest and open enough with me to give me their opinions, whether it's what I want to hear or not. It's often been said that one should choose someone whose handling you admire to be your guide - I think that's terrific advice.

 

Best wishes!

[kelpiegirl]

This is a great topic! Once, I was at a clinic, and we had to work the dog in a packed pen, which was fine, except the teacher had a working stick levelled just above my dog's head- and it really freaked her out. I don't know why that was done, but it didn't help. Yes, the dog went around, but she was more worried about the stick than the sheep...

 

I do think we know our dogs best, and it is always good to know your dog, and be comfortable with the clinician, and their practices, before you go.

[NRhodes]

I've come to the conclusion that it's best to audit a clinic first before deciding to bring a dog. Then you can see how the clinician handles other peoples dogs (and the people) and get a feel for their method and decide whether it's right for your dog and yourself. Not every method is right for every dog. If you learn nothing else from a clinic you can at least learn what you don't want to do

[Sue R]

That is terrific advice, Nicole!

 

See you later this spring at John's, if he gets Elvin back then?

[NRhodes]

Hi Sue! Yep, I plan on being there. Wonder when John is going to get a new schedule out. That was March when Elvin was there last year, right? I just noticed there are kittens on the Buckeye Cowdog page! o_o

[Sue R]

Saw the kitties but no new schedule! I did email John and he is planning on having Elvin, but they haven't gotten the date(s) worked out yet. I hope they do so soon as, if I couldn't make it to Elvin's clinic, there is a Jack Knox clinic I would go to that's already being booked, and I wouldn't want to be too late.

 

It was the end of May last year, on the Memorial Day weekend.

 

See you at a clinic this spring, hopefully!

[NRhodes]

Oh, good, if it's May again that would probably be better. I've already got a clinic planned for March- Joe and Laura Stimatze's in KS. Maybe Gary was there in March one time, I don't remember, everything fades together!

[Sue R]

I think you are right that Gary was there earlier in the year. Have a great time at the Stimatzes' clinic and tell us all about it.

[NRhodes]

Will do! I'm really looking forward to it. Joe and Laura shared some training tips and were otherwise very helpful at the Ranch Dog Forum's get together in Oklahoma.