Teaching a Solid Down

[Ninso]

Hi All,

 

I am new here. I adopted my 2-yr-old border collie, Lok, from a shelter about two months ago. He is overall an incredibly good dog with perfect house manners. He aims to please and will most of the time do anything I ask once he figures out what I want. Eventually, my goal is to get into agility. So far, he has learned sit, down, sit from a down, stay, come, heel, "place" and we have just started working on "back up." We also go to basic obedience twice a week to get him used to working around other dogs. He has some focus problems, but is getting better. Inside he will work for food, although he is not what I would consider "food motivated." Outside he is a frisbee machine and will not take treats. So I am trying to get him to work for the frisbee, which is more difficult because he gets really revved up and doesn't listen.

 

When I first started asking him for sits or downs before I threw the frisbee he just wouldn't do them. It was like he was saying "Are you nuts! How am I supposed to chase a frisbee if I'm laying down?". I've also found that he is resistant to doing the same things over and over again (can't really blame him--so am I!). So first, I tried asking him for a down every ten throws or so, with little success. He would stare at me for awile and eventually slowly sink into something resembling a down.

 

Then I took a NILIF approach, first reducing my criteria and just asking for a sit for every frisbee throw. I also turned my back for 10 seconds or so if he didn't sit right away. He caught on to this fairly quickly, so then I started asking for a down for every throw. It took him a lot longer to comply and he has not done it consistently yet. I figured he might be sick of doing the same thing over and over, so I then I mixed it up with sits and downs, so he had to actually think about what I wanted. When he got the hang of this, I decreased the frequency. Then I started asking him to run out for the frisbee before giving me a down.

 

All of these things he "gets" very quickly, but I still can't get a consistent, immediate down from him, although I can almost always get a very nice sit. I have tried giving different physical cues to help him out - backing up or crouching down, both of which seemed to help a couple times, but then stopped working. THe only "patterns" I can see are the usually the very first time I ask him for a down far away from me he complies right away. The rest of the time, he usually gives me a "crouch and stare" as if he is trying to use "the force" to get the frisbee to come to him. Up close, he will usually sit right away and then slowly sink down into something resembling a down, but if I ask him a few times in a row the subsequent couple of times he will usually give me the enthusiastic "belly flop" I am looking for. If I continue to ask for downs I will get mixed results.

 

It seems like if he gets the fact that "down" makes the frisbee go, he should be complying more consistently. I always release him as soon as his belly hits the ground and I never throw the frisbee unless he has given me what I asked for.

 

Is this something that I just need to keep working on (it has been a few weeks now, and we work on it every day) or am I missing something? Is there a particular body posture that will help? I have found that when I just kind of give the command without thinking about it and without worrying about whether he will do it or not, he does it. Is this just coincidence or can he read my mind?

 

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions!

[Northof49]

Sometimes dogs get over fixated on their reward, particularly if it is in plain sight. They sort of warp into their own little world, and are so highly anticipating the reward that they don't compy with our requests very well. A down takes more effort than a sit or a stand, and really, to the dog, what a waste of time getting down and then just havint to get back up again to go get the frisbee that they LOVE LOVE LOVE!!! LOL

 

Yout could try getting him to work for food rewards outside and put the frisbee away for now with the downs. Then I would get him to freely offer you the down to be rewarded with food, or something else he doesn't get so fixated on. Once he is working good on that, bring out the frisbee again. Put it on the steps, or some place away from you where he cannot help himself. Ask him for a down, and if he is slow, just tell him that was a good try and ask him for another down. If that is even slightly faster, get really excited and tell him - let's go get your frisbee and give him a couple of tosses. Put it away again and ask for a down again. You just have to be patient and work through it. This is where I will use an extended training period to work on just one thing. Once the dog is getting better, then I wait for the dog to offer the done on its own.

 

I have found that when I just kind of give the command without thinking about it and without worrying about whether he will do it or not, he does it. Is this just coincidence or can he read my mind? Is this when you have the frisbee as well?

 

I have had several dogs that I have worked through this same problem msyelf, and I am always working with other people's dogs with this issue. I just don't make a big deal about it. I will eventually work through it once I hit on the right things to do. Playing frisbee with my dog isn't important to me - it's important to my dog. Retrieving toys is important to my dog, not to me. I don't care if we don't play frisbee or retrieve games for a while because of a traning hump I have to get the dog over.

[Root Beer]

Here's what I did with Dean. When I did this, I actually wasn't trying to teach an immediate down, but that's what I ended up with!

 

I got a bath mat (a towel or small piece of carpet would do). I sat on the floor next to it. I free shaped for him to lie on the mat. He actually got it in like a minute. My other dogs took a bit longer when I did this with them. Every time he lay down on the mat, I clicked and tossed a treat. If you don't use clicker, you could say "yes", reward on the mat, and then toss a treat. The purpose of tossing the treat is to get him off the mat so he can lie on it again. It would be fine to use a release before tossing.

 

Once he could do that over and over - come to mat, lie right down, click/treat, toss, come right back, lie down, etc, etc., I stood and repeated the process. He didn't bat an eyelash when I stood. He kept right on doing this.

 

Once it was really solid, I saw that this would make a nice "quick down", so at that point I added a cue that means "quick down". I use "splat". "Down" would be fine. I like to use "down" as a more formal obedience down, though. Splat means "hit the ground!"

 

At that point I started doing this at random without a mat, and added toys into the mix. I would cue him to back up and then cue, "splat". If he downed, he was released and the toy was tossed. If he didn't, it wasn't. I made sure this was really solid on the mat with just food on cue long before I got to this point, though.

 

It's shaping up to be a really nice behavior.

 

And in agility, it's a treasure! If he's creeping at the start line in a sit, it's "splat!" and he starts from a down, which for him is more solid. For a down on the table, "splat!". If he starts to get over excited and starts to run by equipment and not pay attention to me, "splat!" and I get his focus right back and we can go on! That was actually the original reason I started to teach this exercise - to refocus him in Freestyle and Agility training!

 

Hope some of that helps!

[ziggzmom]

It seems like if he gets the fact that "down" makes the frisbee go, he should be complying more consistently. I always release him as soon as his belly hits the ground and I never throw the frisbee unless he has given me what I asked for.

 

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions!

 

 

Hi,

 

Instead of releasing him as soon as his belly hits the ground, you might want to try really rewarding him when he does a great down.....Press down gently on his shoulders, run your hand down his back, give him a treat and tell him what a wonderful down he did=)

 

Janet

[Ninso]

Sometimes dogs get over fixated on their reward, particularly if it is in plain sight. They sort of warp into their own little world, and are so highly anticipating the reward that they don't compy with our requests very well.

 

This is exactly what is happening I think!

 

Yout could try getting him to work for food rewards outside and put the frisbee away for now with the downs.

 

That's a good idea, but might have to wait until warmer weather. If I take my gloves off to handle treats for long my fingers will freeze off! Also, I will have to make it very clear that we are not outside to play frisbee (starting on leash I guess) because otherwise treats get completely ignored or else snatched roughly from my fingers like "fine, I'll take it if I must, now throw the frisbee!!!" But I think you are right about the fixation. He likes treats, but doesn't get fixated on them so he thinks better. Makes me really wonder how people control their dogs at all around sheep!!

 

At that point I started doing this at random without a mat, and added toys into the mix. I would cue him to back up and then cue, "splat". If he downed, he was released and the toy was tossed.

 

I have also taught Lok to go to his "place" (a towel on the floor) and lay down. He does this really well, but never "splats" to the floor. Inside the house, sometimes it feels like everything he does is in slow motion. (I think he might have gotten scolded a lot in the house. He always looks worried inside.) That's ok though. I would much rather have a normal-speed down than him just staring at me. (If I jump around and act like a lunatic sometimes I can get more energy from him.) I think if I can combine your approach with Northof49's I will get what I want. First get solid downs outside with a food reward, maybe rewarding with a game of frisbee after a training session. Then introducing the frisbee as a reward for an individual command later on.

 

Thanks!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Say down, then stick the frisbee behind your back if he doesn't instantly down. Whistle a happy tune.

 

He'll get it pretty quick.

 

I fyou do get into a standoff, just say, "Oh well!" and go do something else. Stick the frisbee up the back of your shirt so it stays out of sight (yeah, nice and cold! we love these dogs, though don't we?).

 

Then whip the disk out suddenly and say "Down!" If he doesn't go down put it behind your back, then give it maybe a ten count, then say "Oh well!" and repeat the ignoring him and doing something else routine. If he downs after the "Oh well!" you still ignore him, but be ready to reward him when you ask the next time, because he will probably do it for you.

 

Repeat until he gets it - even a partial down is okay - you can keep raising the ante on him later. When you get something, anything, make sure you throw the disc immediately (that's why it's up your shirt and not in the house or something).

 

Good luck! Think of it not as battling his disobedience, but a fun game where you learn how he thinks. No stress. Smile, laugh, even when he's apparently blowing you off - "Silly dog, you just made the disc go bye-bye!"

[Ninso]

Repeat until he gets it - even a partial down is okay - you can keep raising the ante on him later. When you get something, anything, make sure you throw the disc immediately (that's why it's up your shirt and not in the house or something).

 

I will try that, rewarding him for less than a perfect down. This may be a stupid question, but should I be releasing him from the down before I throw the frisbee, or just throwing it? What I mean is, I usually say "down" when he does I say "okay" and he runs out and then I throw. Is the intermediate step of releasing him with the "okay" breaking the connection between him laying down and me throwing the frisbee?

[Root Beer]

I will try that, rewarding him for less than a perfect down. This may be a stupid question, but should I be releasing him from the down before I throw the frisbee, or just throwing it? What I mean is, I usually say "down" when he does I say "okay" and he runs out and then I throw. Is the intermediate step of releasing him with the "okay" breaking the connection between him laying down and me throwing the frisbee?

 

I don't think this will be a problem. This is more of a behavior chain - the dog is lying down, waiting, and releasing on cue. The reward is for all of it.

 

If you start throwing the fristbee without a release of some kind, he will likely learn to down and then pop right back up. That's fix-able, but I personally would hold off on the throw until after a release in this case.

 

I might reinforce the behavior with some indoor work with food where I would cue the down/reward the down, ask for a stay/reward the stay, then release and not reward.

 

But with a toy, I hold the reward until a release is given.

[Mudpups]

I probably shouldn't be offering comment seeing as Taj is only five months old, but he is ball crazy and once he learnt that the ball gets thrown only when he does as asked, well it became self-reinforcing:)

 

We started to teach him to wait until released by throwing the ball on the count of 'three' (this was from 8 or 9 weeks of age). Then we mixed up the counting so it was 1,2,14,9,7,6, three! It didn't take long to teach that 'three' was the cue to get the ball. Then we made him sit or stand 'wait', placed the ball on the ground at his feet (so it wasn't moving to break his focus and we would count to three, then he would grab the ball. By about 12 weeks of age, maybe younger, we could throw the ball the length of the yard and he wouldn't chase it until we counted down to three. At any time (very rare) he broke the stay (actually it was a wait command not a stay) the ball got put away and we played something else. He learned really quick what wait/stay meant.

 

To avoid him loosing focus, to keep him calm and to help increase times that he is staying in position (without a stay command) we reinforce in a low key voice by saying 'good sit, good wait' or whatever else we have asked (like waiting to go out the door when the door is held open). We use 'ok' as a release word for everything. I am only now introducing the stay command, and only when I can re-inforce it immediately, but he understands the concept because we have taught him to 'wait'. My reasoning for this is that a puppy is not mature enough to 'stay' and I don't want a stay command broken, so the wait command is more casual, and not a disaster if he breaks it.

 

We use wait and ok for everything from going through doors, chasing balls, eating dinner, taking treats etc and it has really made his stay training much easier. BC's are instant gratification kind of dogs - and failing instant gratification, if a down stay is the way to get the reward quicker (ball, treat, frisbee), they will catch on pretty quick, so I would suggest making him wait before you throw the frisbee.

 

Have you tried hand signals? I find that Taj respons far better to my hand signals than my verbal cues.

 

These are a couple of videos I took recently (Ican now send him away and get a down stay before retrieving the ball...at least most of the time as you can see by the last one which is a blooper.

 

 

The blooper:

 

[Bo Peep]

Here's my opinion, and you know the saying........ I actually used the frisbee to get good downs on my dogs. Of course I started in the house, moving further and further away. But every time I threw it, I would say "Lie down" no lie down from all dogs- no frisbee. I would walk towards the dog that didn't lie down until s/he did. I had 6 at the time. The others let them know they should lie down- LOL. I could take all the dogs to the park off leash- oops- and say Lie down and all 6 would drop. I avoided a ticket (which would have been pretty spendy for all of them that way) I really didn't care if they got up after I raised the frisbee. BUT if you do... I think you should go up to your dog and say...Hey, did I tell you to get up? You silly dog, I said to lie down- calmly, you know. Stand closer, raise the frisbee, then repeat, and repeat, and repeat. It's a border collie thing. Pretty soon, you will be able to toss that without the dog going for it. IF that's what you want.

BUT, why keep a border collie away from a good frisbee. LOL.

[Ninso]

We started to teach him to wait until released by throwing the ball on the count of 'three'

 

It's a border collie thing. Pretty soon, you will be able to toss that without the dog going for it. IF that's what you want.

 

Thanks. He doesn't have a problem with the "stay" though. Once Iget him into a down if I tell him to stay I can walk to either side, jump up and down, raise and lower the frisbee (haven't tried throwing it yet) and he doesn't move until I release him. My problem is getting him into the down.

 

Last night I tried the "too bad/walk away" strategy suggested. I think I just confused him since it was so different from what I had been doing. He would lay down after I walked away and was just confused when I asked him to get up and come to me and lay down again. I had been accepting downs he offered after I turned my back as long as he held them.

 

So then I figured, well, he can't resist a command that I don't give. If I stand and do absolutely nothing, he can't get fixated on the frisbee because it will do him no good. He will have to think to figure out what will make the frisbee go. So I just waited until he offered me a down (incorporating the suggestion of accepting a "good try" rather than demanding perfection). This seemed to work well, at least at first. So I think I might just keeping working on it this way until he is consistent. I figure, it takes the tension out of the game - I can't get frustrated when he doesn't comply, since I haven't asked him to do anything. I know he is trying, and I'm sure he'll get it eventually. It must be hard when what you're being asked to do doesn't seem to have any point (I know I would be frustrated).

 

Thanks for the suggestions, and if anybody has any other ideas I would be glad to hear them.

[Mudpups]

Based on the way you are now approaching it, teaching the down with a clicker and treats might work - one of the ways that I have read about is to keep the clicker and treats on you, say at night when you are watching tv - as soon as the dog offers a natural down, click and treat by throwing the treat a few steps away so the dog has to get up and get it. Wait - even if its ten minutes for the dog to do the same thing, rinse and repeat. It won't take long for the dog to associate the down with the treat, then bring in the down cue, C&T, rinse and repeat. So the dog gets treated for the behaviour without the pressure.

 

I might have missed it, but can you get him to down away from the frisbee without any problem? If not, try working on that side of his training until he becomes 100% reliable in all other situations.

 

While there might not be any real need to have a dog down and wait for the cue to chase a thrown ball or frisbee, personally I think it is an important part of their training that might save their life in the future if they see something that they want to chase in the path of an oncoming car, I want to know that my dog will down immediately, even when he is in high prey drive.

[Ninso]

I might have missed it, but can you get him to down away from the frisbee without any problem?

 

Yep. When no frisbee is involved he will do anything I tell him to do. (Meaning, when I do not have a frisbee in my hand, there is no frisbee outside with us, he is on leash, and has realized that we are outside to do something other than play frisbee.) He knows the down, just acts like he can't hear me when I have a frisbee.

 

While there might not be any real need to have a dog down and wait for the cue to chase a thrown ball or frisbee, personally I think it is an important part of their training that might save their life in the future if they see something that they want to chase in the path of an oncoming car, I want to know that my dog will down immediately, even when he is in high prey drive.

 

Exactly. I really wouldn't care otherwise whether he downs during frisbee play. He seems to think it doesn't make much sense, and I can sympathize with that. He is a thinker, and very serious! I have only had him for about two and a half months though, so I think this is just one of those difficult things that will take some time to work through. He is great otherwise. Listens well in the house, seems to like his obedience classes and does well, has about the best house manners you could ask for from any dog (especially a 2-year-old). This one is just going to take patience, and trying different things until I figure out what works.

[Root Beer]

Yep. When no frisbee is involved he will do anything I tell him to do. (Meaning, when I do not have a frisbee in my hand, there is no frisbee outside with us, he is on leash, and has realized that we are outside to do something other than play frisbee.) He knows the down, just acts like he can't hear me when I have a frisbee.

Exactly. I really wouldn't care otherwise whether he downs during frisbee play. He seems to think it doesn't make much sense, and I can sympathize with that. He is a thinker, and very serious! I have only had him for about two and a half months though, so I think this is just one of those difficult things that will take some time to work through. He is great otherwise. Listens well in the house, seems to like his obedience classes and does well, has about the best house manners you could ask for from any dog (especially a 2-year-old). This one is just going to take patience, and trying different things until I figure out what works.

 

If this were my dog - and Speedy used to be like this with ball - I would look at the situation as two possible options.

 

A. I could let it go and simply manage the frisbee. I could keep the frisbee out of training scenarios and use food only when I train, or lower value toys. I would likely choose this option with an older dog, especially one that I wasn't planning to do any competition with.

 

B. I could regard it as a training challenge and make a plan to slowly train the dog to respond to cues in the presence of this highly valued item.

 

If I chose B - which I personally would with a younger dog that I planned to do a lot of training and performance with - I would start by going back to the mat exercise that I described above. Once the dog had a solid "splat" (or whatever you call it!) on the mat, I would keep the mat in the picture and introduce the frisbee. I would start with the frisbee "dead". I would have it off to the side on the floor when the dog enters the room - maybe even with a chair between the dog and frisbee so he understands that it is "out of access" for the time being.

 

I would see if he could do the "splat" exercise over and over with the frisbee "dead" off to the side. If so, I would reward that by taking him outside with the frisbee and playing a quick game afterward and then quit.

 

I would gradually move the frisbee closer. The idea would be to get him to ignore the frisbee, or at least deliberately leave it alone, until responding to cues in the presence of the frisbee becomes normal.

 

Eventually I would make the transition to frisbee in hand, but not in play until after the behaviors were solid.

 

BTW, I would also not ask for the same behavior all the time. I might work a splat down, a sit, twirling around in a circle, backing up, etc.

 

Much later, I would start working the same behaviors with the dog outside without the frisbee, and then later do the same exercise outside with the "dead" frisbee before starting to ask the dog for behaviors during a game.

 

Hope that gives you some ideas!

[Ninso]

Thanks Kristine! I hadn't thought about bringing the frisbee inside and just working on his commands in its presence. Maybe that would be a lower-intensity way to get his focus when it is around. And I haven't done much training outside yet, so I think it will help to do that before I start asking for behaviors around the frisbee outside. I would love to get into agility with him, at least for fun if not for competition, so I think I will treat it as a training challenge, and eventually we will get there. Thanks for the ideas!