Moss training video

[Shoofly]

I put up a couple of short videos of Moss working yesterday. The first is on a larger mixed flock of 40 sheep, and the second is on a smaller group. He's just starting out and I've only really started training him in the last week. He'd been on sheep several times before but wasn't really ready for training - sometimes he wasn't keen enough and others he'd be gripping like a fiend. I'm not "fixing" a lot in this video - for example, he's tight on his left hand outrun and i'm leaving that alone for now. I think he'll be a good outrunner and gives decent ground on the other side, so it should even out. He was really bad about not covering his sheep before, and also about diving in and gripping really hard on the sides. Now you'll notice that he covers very, very well and doesn't think that much about gripping. I accomplished this with him by doing the opposite of what you might think (pushing him out) - I call him in with his name (which also serves to remind him to not grip) and I shush him around so he's going fast and enjoying catching the sheep, and I'm emphasizing that he over-cover on the away side (the one that was so bad). I also don't let him switch back to the come bye side - he was flicking back over from the away direction well before covering, so i just cut that out for now. There's a decent example of this towards the end of the "big group" video though i'm not sure how well it really comes across on video.

 

Anyway, he's bringing sheep pretty fast but he's not thinking bad (chasing) thoughts, he's enjoying himself, and he's doing some nice work for where he is and where he was a week ago, so I thought i'd share. Oh, this is a littermate to May from Denise's video and to Grace's Eve.

 

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVW2RqY9kT8

 

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzwCHG1uts

[Marilyn T]

I sure hope lots of you folks that are novice level or starting young dogs watch this and really study these videos that Robin and Denise are providing for us. First of all, Moss is only 13 months old, and if you notice, Robin has already introduced the concept of driving, and even the shed to this young dog. It is obvious he is not yet perfect on his gather, yet as an open handler, she recognizes the need to make all the future complicated work less scary to a young dog. When the flock folds around her, and she is with Moss, she turns and takes him on a couple of driving steps. No stress applied, just walking along on the same side of the flock with him, then calling him off before he tries to go to the heads. When she wants to call him off, sometimes she will take the opportunity to call him towards her and the sheep, while she is still in the middle of the flock, introducing the first baby steps of shedding.

 

Keep posting these videos Robin. If people watch, it will be a fantastic training lesson for them on what to do with a young dog. Plus it is great winter time entertainment.

[Sue R]

One big mistake I made (I am convinced) is working on outrun, lift, and fetch so much that, when I attempted to introduce driving to Celt, it was extremely difficult and remains a huge problem several years later. With Bute, I do try to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves to "broaden his horizons" and make him comfy with doing different things. I can't say I'm very successful but at least I'm trying, and so is he.

 

Thanks to Robin and Denise! It is wonderful and educational to see these videos which, thankfully, I can now view because of an improved internet service.

[Shoofly]

Aww, thanks for the kind words. I was really proud of the Moss man, it's amazing the change in him in just 7 days of training. If i get brave, i'll post a link to the video from 30 days ago (ick!).

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks Robin. I enjoyed watching!

 

J.

[Marilyn T]

it's amazing the change in him in just 7 days of training. If i get brave, i'll post a link to the video from 30 days ago

 

Aha! But you have to wonder, is it the 7 training days, or the 30 days of increased maturity? The true quandry of dog training.

[Shoofly]

I'm pretty sure it was the change in method. I didn't actually put him up for those whole 30 days, that was just the gap between videos. I probably tried him 2 or 3 times between videos (even had a friend try him on some wilder sheep to see if it would kick something in) and when i brought him out last wednesday, he was still worried and silly. The look on his face when i started this new stuff was amazing, total relief and sheer joy from him. He hasn't looked in the rear view mirror since. I wish i had video from each of those days because the change from day to day was incredible. BUT, i think the extra maturity surely helped. He's from a slower maturing line. I expect it will help even more in the future as well. It is a quandry!

[Chesney's Girl]

Loved the videos! I added them to my favorites on Youtube so I can watch them over again when I need. Thanks!

[Marilyn T]

What was the change in method. Your approach to his gripping changed??? or what. Please enlighten us! M

[NRhodes]

Thanks for the great videos. Moss is looking good.

Where can we find Denise's video of May?

[Shoofly]

I wrote a really good reply to this and managed to lose it, grrr. Let me try again.

 

What was the change in method. Your approach to his gripping changed??? or what. Please enlighten us! M

 

What i changed was how i dealt with him not covering. I've always found that to be really hard to deal with. He was pokey going around and not just dying to get out there and catch the sheep. If i pushed him out a little and tried to speed him up to get on around and cover (or if i didn't push on him but just tried to hurry him up), he took that as pressure and he couldn't take that. So i started calling him in instead, using his name (Moss Moss Moss) and sped him up with little shushes. Without the calling in part, he was taking the shushes as pressure, not as encouragement. With calling his name, he started flying around the sheep and really enjoying himself tremendously. Off sheep, he's a dog that runs like a maniac and obviously just enjoys the activity, so i think he was relieved to get to do it on sheep finally and understand. It was actually very rewarding for him. So that was element one.

 

The second element was that he'd flick back to the other direction before covering. That was making me nuts. BTW, this was all in the away direction. The come bye side seems okay and i haven't put any time into it yet. So, he'd be going away away away and never quite catching the sheep, and then flick back to going come bye even though the sheep were still passing me on the left. Something there was rewarding to him, or he was avoiding the away side or something. So i just stopped letting him flick back. I'd stop him and make him continue in the away direction. What i did that was different is that i didn't let him switch to come bye even if he did manage to over-cover the away direction and had pushed the sheep across in front of me and to my right - normally I'd want the dog to switch back over to cover that side. I think he was anticipating getting to switch over to the come bye direction and this was making him under cover the away side even more.

 

The third element was the grip. He was really, really hitting the sheep hard and frequently. I thought he was going to tear an ear off one! It was mostly on the outside corners, he'd dive in and grab and pull like mad. He just couldn't take the building tension i think. I really didn't change my method for dealing with the grip though, i just tried to read him better and give him a voice correction sooner (when he'd have "gripping thoughts" rather than already being attached to one's neck ). I also tried to gear my corrections down so he'd stay "in the work" - I wanted him to know i wanted him to stop gripping, not stop working. The only thing that was really different here was that i was asking him to flank tighter and somewhat faster, so he had more opportunity to grip, but he's offered it a lot less frequently. He's gotten used to being closer to sheep and is more comfortable and more workmanlike, even though he's doing things faster. And because he's happier in general, i can give him corrections without it shutting him down at all. I think he feels more in control.

 

Anyway, maybe that stuff isn't so different for other folks but it was an interesting approach for me (maybe i'm just slow ). It seems i spend a lot more time trying to slow dogs' brains down to think rather than firing them up to think. I know a lot of dogs would get into a frenzy on being worked this way.

[Shoofly]

Thanks for the great videos. Moss is looking good.

Where can we find Denise's video of May?

 

Here's the thread

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=16158

[Marilyn T]

Okay... I get it. Now,... going back to the hard dog thread, describe the packed pen for me. Do you fill the area up with sheep to the point it is difficult to even move, like how many people can you get into a phone booth packed? or a foot around the outside available if the sheep decide to stand on top of each other in the center of the stall? Where are you in this stall? In the middle, on ther perimeter with the dog? What is the task you ask of the dog? ... to move around the sheep, squeezing between sheep and walls? To be on one side, holding sheep agains the other/ To stay in the stall, not trying to escape? What stage are the youngest ones you have done this with??? Are they keen, but scared? Not too keen? Do they know their flanks?

 

(It is kind of fun to pick at your brain!)

M

[Pippin's person]

I really appreciate how lively/interesting/informative the training/trialling discussions have become--and the videos are an excellent lagniappe.

 

I've found it especially helpful to lurk and read as people who've been doing this for a while talk to each other about various issues.

 

Robin, I love it on your videos when I can hear you since one of the things I keep trying to work on is appropriate modulation of my voice. I tend to have two versions of a command: normal and verging on panic. So, hearing you give the command while also being able to watch the dog's reaction is really great. Thanks for posting these.

[Shoofly]

Okay... I get it. Now,... going back to the hard dog thread, describe the packed pen for me. Do you fill the area up with sheep to the point it is difficult to even move, like how many people can you get into a phone booth packed? or a foot around the outside available if the sheep decide to stand on top of each other in the center of the stall? Where are you in this stall? In the middle, on ther perimeter with the dog? What is the task you ask of the dog? ... to move around the sheep, squeezing between sheep and walls? To be on one side, holding sheep agains the other/ To stay in the stall, not trying to escape? What stage are the youngest ones you have done this with??? Are they keen, but scared? Not too keen? Do they know their flanks?

 

(It is kind of fun to pick at your brain!)

M

 

Well, it's good for me to try to put it into words, makes me think which is always good for me.

 

The packed pen, i LOVE the packed pen. I've used it with so many dogs, at so many stages of training, it's hard to even describe. It's been quite the miracle worker with many, many dogs. That said, i wouldn't encourage a novice handler to go home and try it on their own - there's so much going on mentally with the dog that i think you have to really know what you're seeing and what you should encourage and discourage, to do it right and not blow a dog's mind.

 

My pen is about 10x12 and i stuff it full of sheep. I want it so full that's it's hard but not impossible to get around the outside edges of them. Wool sheep work best i think. I'll use hair sheep but they tend to move more quickly and less predictably, like jumping backwards into you instead of moving off you and the dog as wool sheep do - easy for you to get hurt and not the calm correct movement i want the dog to see. So, if you were measuring by volume, i probably cover 3/4 of the floor space with sheep bodies, at least. I don't want the sheep to be able to move quickly at all, slow trudging movement and sheep bunched up in corners is what i want. You also want it to be more or less dog proof so the dog doesn't squeeze out when trying to go around the sheep - that defeats the purpose of creating the tight space.

 

My goal is for the dog to learn correct, calm, confident movement around the sheep in this small space. No darting, flipping back around to face/head, no stupid biting, no avoidance, just growing confidence and skills to handle the sheep with authority. I want the dog to come out of the pen feeling 10 feet tall.

 

I always take the dog in on a 6 foot leather leash attached to a buckle collar. I start with the dog next to my leg, with the leash shortened up so he has to stay right next to my leg, and him on the outside against the outer edge of the pen - me between him and sheep. Almost all dogs are going to be a little scared in this situation to start with and i want to be in total control of the dog's access to sheep, and the sheep's access to dog. I start moving forward around the sheep (keeping the dog right by my leg so i can sort of push it to the outside of the sheep) and just kind of talk sweet and encourage the dog to do things i like - pushing to go outside, moving calmly, soft appropriate grips. As the dog gets more confidence i'll start to let the leash out a bit and let the dog get ahead of me a bit though i stay close. If the dog does something i don't like - a stupid grip, dashing about instead of calm movements, trying to flip back and change directions, i'll put a harsh voice to that and use the leash if i need to, to keep the motion right. If the dog does something really hard for it (the timid dog that started out not even looking at the sheep that just squeezes like crazy between sheep and the wall, or the grip monster that stares down a ewe staring at him, and releases the glare to go on around) then i might get really excited and let the dog know i'm really, really happy with it. It's basically shaping behaviors with reward tones and correction tones. The trick is knowing enough about the work and dogs to do it right, and to have the correct timing and to read the dogs and know where they're coming from and what they're feeling. I want the dog moving slowly and calmly, feeling confident power and not moving the sheep by rushing and bluffing.

 

I've done this with dogs ranging from their first ever lesson on sheep up to Open dogs. I've only ever seen 2 that it didn't help at least a little, and for most it's a big transformation. The 2 that it didn't work on were the killer dog i mentioned in that other thread and one that was really not keen and came out of the pen thinking she should stay by my leg. I actually think that second one might have been okay if she'd stayed keen enough to keep in the pen until she felt comfortable going around on her own. With Open dogs, you can get rid of the leash pretty quickly. I'll progress to sitting up on top of the gate and just flanking them around the sheep on their own so i don't get smushed too.

[Shoofly]

I really appreciate how lively/interesting/informative the training/trialling discussions have become--and the videos are an excellent lagniappe.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what's lagniappe?

 

I've found it especially helpful to lurk and read as people who've been doing this for a while talk to each other about various issues.

 

Robin, I love it on your videos when I can hear you since one of the things I keep trying to work on is appropriate modulation of my voice. I tend to have two versions of a command: normal and verging on panic. So, hearing you give the command while also being able to watch the dog's reaction is really great. Thanks for posting these.

 

I'm glad you're enjoying it. Nice to know we're not just spitting in the dark here.

 

Oh, regarding the voice thing, i use "lie" as a sort of transition from "lie down" to "time", just in case anyone was wondering why i was letting Moss not take some of his downs. "Lie" is more of a "there, time" command (a half halt) and since it sounds so much like "time", i use it as a sort of middle step towards using "time" exclusively. I realized watching the video that might be confusing.

[Marilyn T]

Excuse my ignorance, but what's lagniappe?

 

Oh... just Robin (Pippin's person) using some of her $4 words from her profession. Actually, it means a small gift, present.

[Pippin's person]

 

Oh... just Robin (Pippin's person) using some of her $4 words from her profession. Actually, it means a small gift, present.

 

I wish my profession used it--I could use some now that I'm in the throws of grade complaints....this one, I learned from my mom, who grew up partly in Louisiana--it's a Cajun term that she used for an unexpected bonus or gift.

[Denise Wall]

Moss looks good, Robin. Much different than a month ago. It's so interesting to see how the pups from the various litters are different and similar.

[Shoofly]

Hey Marilyn -

 

Let's hear some of your thoughts on gripping and such. I should be picking your brain since you whup me on the trial field so often!

[Marilyn T]

Warning... this is long! Wendy, I made paragraphs just for you. Gripping... hmmm. I'll start with ... it all depends on the dog, the situation, and the severity. Nice broad statement. I can only supply my own personal experiences. Now please realize, I have only trained 7 dogs total in my career. I kind of have limited experience. I'll go through each one and what the issues were/are.

 

First, I am a large person, and can't run at the dogs, or stuff like that. (Once I was in a clinic with Scott Glen and trying to keep up with him chasing off a pup was impossible. I just stopped and said 'go for it!) I need to have an emotional connection with a dog in order to train it. All my dogs basically are chastized with verbal corrections. In a pup, starting out, I allow some biting. I actually kind of like it when a young dog goes into a round pen and loses their head a bit in the begining. It is alot easier to work with a keen pup than a spooky insecure one. The one thing I really work on from day one is to teach that pup that I am in the picture. If I am in the picture from the beginning, then they are working to please me, not themselves, and my opinion counts with them. I physically cannot always be in the right place, so I need them mentally in tune with my wishes in order to achieve my goals. One of the things I do to achieve this is to stop mindless circling as soon as possible. I don't think it teaches a young dog anything.

 

I try and block the young dog to the back of the sheep from its first time to let them know I own the sheep, and I control what they get to do. Kind of like Cesar Milan (now don't anyone jump on this but I think he has some really good ideas!). I own the sheep, and they are not out there for the dog's entertainment. As soon as possible, I try and get the dog behind sheep and doing a couple of fetch steps. From there, I'll put in 90 degree turns and call offs. I also make sure that if a sheep faces a dog or is aggressive towards a dog, I am right there to help, swinging a stick, smacking the sheep on the face, and helping out that dog. We are a team, and I want the dog to realize that. I allow a puppy to do whatever they need to in that situation with my help. I am not impressed with the testosterone poisoned person (male or female!) who puts a dog into a bad situation then gets mad when the dog loses heart in the chore due to lack of help. I make a point of not putting young dogs into lambing situations where they can get blindsided by a nasty ewe. I also go and help out the older dogs in this situation. All of this helps the dog realize they are part of a team, not just my slave.

 

Back to gripping. When I got my first dog, I also had horses. My place is set up so that there was a gate across the back of the barn, and horses in the pasture could come up and hang their heads over it. I used that to teach my first dog to take hold. He decided he owned the aisle, and no horse was allowed to put their heads over that gate and into the barn. I used it as a game, and taught 'take hold' and he would try and bite them on the nose. He was my most appropriate gripping dog that I have ever owned. I didn't feel too bad for the horses, since they could get away, and didn't have to hang a head over that gate. It was pretty safe for the dog too. He thought he was superman because of it.

 

My next dog was a gripper. She would take every opportunity to bite sheep in the butt as a young dog. I ended up going to Lyle for help, and we firmly corrected every cheap shot she did. I AARRGGHH'd her as fast as I could, trying to correct the first 'I'm gonna bite those sheepies' thought in her head, and went towards her as threatingly as possible, and drove her off the sheep; to the point where she was considering leaving the field. I wanted to make an impression. Mostly, I wanted her to be more worried about what I thought than losing sheep, teaching them some lesson, or losing her temper. It was never an issue to get her to bite if I wanted it after that, but I made sure there was a justifiable cause for it, and I tried to be in total control. Amusingly, I used to teach KPT obedience for puppies, and used her as my 'demo' dog. She would lay there, grumbling and showing teeth, but not doing anything until I gave her the okay to 'correct' the puppies. Of course, she is now 13 and most of that training has gone out the window.....she is the house mother, and nobody better forget it!

 

Scott would never bite, and I needed to teach him a bite to increase his confidence. I never managed to get it right with him. I put sheep in the corner, and flushed one or two out, letting him do the cutting horse thing and put them back in. Another thing I tried was to put on leather gloves, straddle a young sheep, and whap it on the nose, asking him to bite. He just wouldn't participate! I think his breeding is 'anti biting' as a ccouple of other dogs from his lines also are reluctant to bite. He will try and stop a sheep if I ask him to, but will be reluctant to confront them on the heads. He would rather try to widen out to stop them, or if they are outrunning him, he will grab a side or butt and try that way. Not my choice, but managable. ( I no longer had horses to train on at this point)

 

Queen used to lose her temper a bit too and bite inappropriately. Corrections would excite her into worse behavior. With her, I needed to anticipate the temptation to bite, and use a 'get out' command to prevent it. That makes her do a fading away from the sheep flank, and increased her distance from them, releasing her tension, and removing her from her 'zone'. Most of her gripping was when sheep were going away from her and she felt out of control. Even now, when she sheds I still sometimes have to use 'out' with her to keep her from getting into trouble.

 

Lena (Queen's littermate, and an epileptic) was too funny. In a packed pen with Kent, she would go and put her mouth around the hocks or feet of the sheep, then be worried she hurt them. She actually licked one where she bit it once. Stuffing a chute with her was hysterical. She would go up, bump them then look to me like "Mom, I don't want to hurt them!" However, in a stall or pen, I could touch a sheep with my stick, and she would bite it exactly there! Nose, shoulder, butt, leg, didn't matter. I learned that at the pen during a trial! I was threatening a sheep to tryand close a gate, and in flew the tiny tri-colored dog. (For those of you that never met her, she was like a hairy version of Julie's Lark) For only being 27 poounds, she would try anything I asked of her. Go figure! Needless to say, I learned to not wave my stick around too much when I ran her. She ended up standing up to a ram, and getting smashed into a concrete waterer, and dying. I think long and hard now what I ask the dogs for.

 

My youngest dog, Gin has something of a temper too. (If you remember Kentucky this October, she ended up in the woods chasing after a sheep on each run! Her temper came out when the lambs at the pen tried to run over the top of her to the exhaust. That said, she has been the easiest of all the dogs to train, usually being in the correct spot, with proper attitude. However, she gets really mad at what she thinks is a 'stupid' sheep. All bets are off when that happens. I think that she is usually so nice to them, they usually don't question what she says, but when they do, it really pisses her off. What I did with her, was put about 15 sheep in a corner, with me in there too. First, I asked her around behind them in both directions. Initially , she would race through the corner, and do whatever she could to head them. Fortunately, she is extremely biddable, so an ARGHH! with the 'thought' of the grip was enough to stop it. She got to the point where she could come through the corner, and drive them away without any issues.

 

With very little of that work, most temper tantrums from her totally went away until I introduced shedding to her at about 2. Then it showed up again. There is a fine line between correcting a grip at the shed, and ruining a dog for shedding, so I tolerated it until recently, doing nothing more than chastizing her for it and continuing on. She is 3 1/2 now, and solid on shedding, so I feel comfortable raising my expectations at the shed . If the sheep sheds off normally, she is fine, but would grip if it was a lamb making a 'stupid' decision. She lost her temper on her first run this past year at the Bluegrass, and although we got the shed, the lamb went out over the fence into the crowd, with her in hot pursuit. This fall however she was firmly committed to her shedding, and so I decided to address the gripping. I put her into a situation that would most likely bring out the bad behavior, and when she lost the temper, I over-reacted to it. I hollered, got between her and the sheep and whacked my hat at her chasing her away from the sheep. I had never done much more than say her name to correct her prior to this. Now, this was a HUGE difference to the little dog who stopped the first time she heard a down whistle with no prior training. I made a serious impression on her. I stood there, and 'discussed' her transgressions loudly for a bit, then dropped the attitude, and just went on to set it up again. The next time, I could just give her a soft warning at the shed, and she avoided a grip. It isn't totally fixed yet, but will be by spring I bet.

 

I'm sorry to be so long winded. One thing I learned early on, and took to heart. Do not hold a grudge against the dogs. Correct immediately, as harshly as necessary, then get over it. We hate a dog that sulks... well it is a version of sulking when WE hold a grudge. GET OVER IT. Expect the dog to be correct the next time, and sound like it. Just keep a sharp eye on the attitude, and correct again if necessary.

 

I'm not sure I answered your quesiton Robin, but those are some of my thoughts.

[Shoofly]

This is wonderful! I'm off to a holiday work party but plan to study this later. I hope you novice folks out there are reading and studying, there's great stuff here about a lot of parts of training dogs, not just grips.

 

Thank you!

 

Okay, who's next? Wendy, Denise, somebody?

[borderlicious]

Robin, I don't have a ton of time to post but I wanted to say THANK YOU!!!!

 

The issues you had with Moss are very similar to the issues I've encountered with Eve, except I'm pretty sure her flaws are tied in to mine as a handler. She does a lot of diving and gripping, not hard like Moss, but it still flusters the stock. I'm thinking it's just a lack of confidence, and I probably add to the tension by getting tense myself in anticipation for an explosion of sheep all around me.

 

Loved seeing Moss work. I have bits and pieces of a crappy video of Eve that I'll piece together later.

[Liz P]

The issues you had with Moss are very similar to the issues I've encountered with Eve, except I'm pretty sure her flaws are tied in to mine as a handler. She does a lot of diving and gripping, not hard like Moss, but it still flusters the stock. I'm thinking it's just a lack of confidence, and I probably add to the tension by getting tense myself in anticipation for an explosion of sheep all around me.

 

Grace, I have the exact same problems with my two, so don't beat up on yourself. With maturity and practice they will sort out. Besides, I prefer a dog who grips too much to one who gets chased off the field by the sheep!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I was having very similar issues with my Rocky pup and Robin decided to try the same thing with him. It really worked wonders for him - it's not something that would have been easy for me to try a few months ago but now my timing is much better and I believe I also have a "new and improved" youngster.

 

I have a video of this but I'm short on space on my hard drive and haven't had time to reorganize and archive stuff so I can download the zillions of megabytes I have of vids and pics on my camera, after last weekend's stockdog extravaganza!