Introducing a new dog

[sweet_ceana]

Ceana is a dominant & fear aggressive female. I know, great combo right? LOL. We are currently meeting dogs in the local rescue to see if any of them would make a good companion for the three of us. We are looking at males around the same age as Ceana... 1 &1/2 ish. Here is my question... should I expect Ceana to be snippy (she is with almost every dog) and then after they have established boundries the bonding will begin, or should I look for a dog that she bonds with instantly? We are learning that we are a lot less educated on this process then we thought.

[notailabigail]

Have you had other dogs come stay in your home for any period of time? For fostering, dog-sitting, etc.?

 

I would call Abby a fearful yet very pushy female. She can be quite snippy with strange dogs if I'm not constantly keeping tabs on her. Before getting Ryan, though, I fostered a few dogs and so did my roommate. I found out that way that Abby absolutely loves living with another dog. A few of them Abby took an instant liking to, and a few of them she was snarky with at first. Either way, within a day she was fine.

 

Maybe you could try fostering a dog to see how Ceana does?

[sweet_ceana]

Chris and I would love to foster eventually, we would both feel more comfortable adding a second dog of our own before bringing in a foster. I just wouldn't feel right bringing in a dog that could possibly be shell shocked or abused into our house with Ceana. She is still unstable enough that we want to make sure she has a very confident and stable friend. This will hopefully build her confidence and improve her dog on dog skills. I would be scared that by fostering at this time we may do some very sensitive dogs more harm than good.

 

We learned today that Ceana is extreamly dominant. A dog (Casey for anyone that read the other thread) that we thought would run all over her was actually pretty scared of her. Poor guy would cower if she looked at him. He even lost interest in playing with her (which is pretty much what this dog does- no ball or frisbee just playing with dogs.) Ceana is so small and he is so big, it was just odd to see that dynamic. He was really hyper the first time we met him & Ceana's presence replaced the hyper with his fear of pisssing her off. We wanted a submissive dog, but I do not think that it would be fair to pair him with Ceana. We are going to have another play date when the foster comes back from out of town to see if the two can maybe warm up to each other after the initial meeting.

 

Ceana was dominant with the other dog we met today as well. (Poco.) Chris and I thought her pushy-ness may have been because he is still young (10 months) but now we are not so sure. They barked and bared teeth but no one actually touched the other. Poco was put in his place by ceana as well. Both are very toy oriented & when we went down to one frisbee Ceana let Poco get the frisbee the first time, then scolded him, and took the frisbee from him. After that if Ceana wanted the frisbee he would back off. I don't know if i like this or not. He is following the rules she sets, but once again they did not play together. They definetly tolerated each other off leash while playing seperately. The only difference is Poco was not afraid of her. He was confident and attentive to what she was doing, he would try and engage her in play- which always went snarky- but he kept trying. The other dog did not. We have another play date scheadulaed for friday with Poco & Ceana so we will see how they do the second time around. ( I am in love with Poco but I cannot have him unless he and Ceana can get along. He cried again when we left today )

 

Do these interactions sound like we are looking for the right kind of dog? Should I abandon hope that Ceana will learn to get along and wait until she instantly gets along with another? The latter has happened on rare occasion. Do we need a female that will stand up to my bossy dog? She actually did best with another alpha female just like her- they growled at each other, but they played ball with the same ball. I think that was just temporary and I fear another snarky female would make our house a living hell... Chris is not so sure. Could that possibly work in the long term? Has anyone seen that work? Wouldn't the two dogs need a higherarchy of some sort to co-exist (especially two very dominant dogs?)

 

What do you guys think? Am I looking at the wrong kind of dogs or do I need some patience?

[juliepoudrier]

You need to remember that dogs generally will not exist as "equals" when in a pack situation (and two is a pack). One dog will have to be the dominant/leader dog and the other will have to take the "lower on the totem pole" position. The dogs will actually be happier if they know where they rank among each other. I think adding another bossy female would just set you up for constant snarkiness--as someone who has a bunch of females, neutered and not, you can trust me on this, and I don't think they start to get along better over time, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. I think you are right to look for a dog of the opposite sex, not necessarily submissive, but willing to let Ceana be alpha.

 

If you really like a particular dog and he seems to get along okay with Ceana then I think the rest can be worked out. You can't tell from just one meeting whether the two will become playmates or not. It takes time for them to establish a a relationship with one another before they will settle into anything that resembles playmates. Of course there are no guarantees either.

 

In my own pack Twist and Jill used to love to play with one another. Now Jill will initiate play sometimes, but Twist generally doesn't reciprocate (as she has aged, Twist is trying to climb the dominance ladder, which means butting heads with both Jill and Willow). Twist will play with Pip and Lark but generally not with Phoebe. Twist will play with Kat outside (and Kat will go to extremes like grabbing and pulling Twist's tail, which she wouldn't dream of doing when they're hanging out in the house) but is extremely bossy of her inside. Farliegh was undersocialized and really doesn't know how to play with anyone and often will react inappropriately in various situations, and yet despite that, all the dogs seem to get along with him and nobody picks him (maybe they feel sorry for him, LOL!). Boy pretty much stays out of it. Pip and Lark and great playmates, and Lark will play with Phoebe but not as often as with Pip. Pip and Phoebe (littermates) will play, but those sessions usually end in a fight. Jill and Willow do not get along, do not play with one another, snipe and snark all the time at one another. They were two dominant females who were brought together in one household and they have resented each other from day 1. And yet I don't live in a house of constant fighting and I cna sit here at the computer and work with all of them in the house and no fighting. I can walk the dogs as a pack and they are fine (well, except for the flybys Jill and Willow will do to each other, but that's usually just at the start of a walk). I kick pine cones for the dogs to chase on our walks and some steal from others with no fights breaking out. The point to all this is I don't think you can just find the perfect dog and know it instantly. I think you take the dog that you like the best that you also think will work with Ceana after one or two meetings and then you help them to make it work. That's just my opinion, FWIW.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

You need to remember that dogs generally will not exist as "equals" when in a pack situation (and two is a pack). One dog will have to be the dominant/leader dog and the other will have to take the "lower on the totem pole" position. The dogs will actually be happier if they know where they rank among each other. I think adding another bossy female would just set you up for constant snarkiness--as someone who has a bunch of females, neutered and not, you can trust me on this, and I don't think they start to get along better over time, in fact, the opposite seems to be true. I think you are right to look for a dog of the opposite sex, not necessarily submissive, but willing to let Ceana be alpha.

 

If you really like a particular dog and he seems to get along okay with Ceana then I think the rest can be worked out. You can't tell from just one meeting whether the two will become playmates or not. It takes time for them to establish a a relationship with one another before they will settle into anything that resembles playmates. Of course there are no guarantees either.

 

In my own pack Twist and Jill used to love to play with one another. Now Jill will initiate play sometimes, but Twist generally doesn't reciprocate (as she has aged, Twist is trying to climb the dominance ladder, which means butting heads with both Jill and Willow). Twist will play with Pip and Lark but generally not with Phoebe. Twist will play with Kat outside (and Kat will go to extremes like grabbing and pulling Twist's tail, which she wouldn't dream of doing when they're hanging out in the house) but is extremely bossy of her inside. Farliegh was undersocialized and really doesn't know how to play with anyone and often will react inappropriately in various situations, and yet despite that, all the dogs seem to get along with him and nobody picks him (maybe they feel sorry for him, LOL!). Boy pretty much stays out of it. Pip and Lark and great playmates, and Lark will play with Phoebe but not as often as with Pip. Pip and Phoebe (littermates) will play, but those sessions usually end in a fight. Jill and Willow do not get along, do not play with one another, snipe and snark all the time at one another. They were two dominant females who were brought together in one household and they have resented each other from day 1. And yet I don't live in a house of constant fighting and I can sit here at the computer and work with all of them in the house and no fighting. I can walk the dogs as a pack and they are fine (well, except for the flybys Jill and Willow will do to each other, but that's usually just at the start of a walk). I kick pine cones for the dogs to chase on our walks and some steal from others with no fights breaking out. The point to all this is I don't think you can just find the perfect dog and know it instantly. I think you take the dog that you like the best that you also think will work with Ceana after one or two meetings and then you help them to make it work. That's just my opinion, FWIW.

[Laurae]

I have a reactive dominant female as well. I was very nervous about adding other dogs to my household. I went the puppy route with Taz because I didn't think I'd find an adult dog I was sure Sophie would accept. I think I wasn't giving her much credit, as we'd lived with roommates with their dogs before, but I've continued to learn a lot more about her throughout her life. Anyway, she wouldn't acknowledge puppy Taz for five long days before she finally caved in. During that period, I might have thought Taz wasn't a good fit for Sophie, but on the fifth evening, she couldn't stand Taz running around my apartment squeaking her toy any longer and she ran to take it away from him. He took it back, and the game was on! They've been best buddies ever since, and in many ways Taz was the best thing I could have done to improve Sophie's quality of life.

 

Still, I was nervous bringing adult Craig into the house. He is a no-nonsense dog who doesn't play...or didn't before he met Sophie. He nips other dogs if he's out when they are playing (which he isn't, but sometimes spontaneous play breaks out in the yard). But Sophie turns out to like Craig also, and in fact the tension in the house is between Taz and Craig. I think the boys respect Sophie's "authority," and never really challenge her, and this makes her comfortable, so she's not such a bitch. I would only go with a female addition now if that female were a pup (Sophie likes puppies and accepts Callie, a pup we watch from time to time, who is definitely going to be quite the little alpha bitch when she grows up). Of course, I don't know how similar Sophie is to Ceana, but if I were you, I'd definitely go with a well-adjusted male

[sweet_ceana]

Ok this is what i wanted to hear. I want Poco! He is such a good dog and Chris thinks they should just magically get along... but i didn't. Thank you for your in put. Even if he and Ceana take a while to arm up to playing the little guy is a sfocused as she is with ball and frisbee so we can still all do our activities. I am calling chris right now, I want this dog.

[donna frankland (uk)]

molly was miss dominatrix and at time fear agressive. i dont think that perhaps i went about it the right way though. i got my mate to come with me and we brought all of our dogs who generally walk together (one factor in either of us getting a new dog is it has to fit with our combined pack). we went for a walk and molly's owner at the time came too. she tried snarking but then simply seemed to relax in the bigger group!

when i brought her home things were a little tense over beds/toys/attention etc but i couldnt tell who was boss. i waited knowing that they would have to sort it out and they did. i dont know what tikki did but she flew at him guns blazing (no damage done) he snarked back, i hit the roof and chucked one out in the garden and the other in the hall!

lesson learned. molly was top dog, tikki wasnt, mummy is the biggest bitch on the planet so dont try that crap again!

after that molly got fed 1st, lead on 1st etc and 3 days after that they started play wrestling and generally being the best friends they could possibly have been!

once in a while, molly and one of my friends bitches would set to, but nothing more than a scab on the ear and a nicked nose ever happened in the nearly 4 years she was here. molly was 3.5 when i got her and most of the snarks i feel would have been avoided if she learned the pack lessons as a younger dog, but i could be wrong.

[TheStacks]

Zoey is also fear aggressive and dominant (a down right bossy little bitch if I do say so myself). I knew when I added dog number two that I needed a dog willing to be second seat. I adopted Fenn without meeting him based on conversations with his foster mom. I was slightly panicked about the possible outcome, but something told me to go for it.

 

Fennec was exactly what Zoey needed in a second dog..."Okay you want the toy? Whatever, I will just run behind you."

 

Was it magic instantly? No, they had to figure each other out. Fenn was a little shell-shocked in the new environment and had to warm up to Zoey and her in your face, noisy play style. They had to learn the rules, learn how to be a pack, and figure out what ticked eachother off.

 

It does help to set rules and let them go at their own pace. My rules are simple, if you have it in your possession, it is yours. If you leave it, it is fair game. I am the pack leader and Zoey looks to me for encouragement to enforce her rules. I do correct her if she is wrong (taking a toy/bone that Fenn is actively playing with) with a simple ahh ahh or no. If you maintain your position, at the same time letting them naturally figure each other out it can work. I was surprised how seamless it went. I was prepared for way worse, trust me if you knew Zoey a year ago you would understand.

 

Adding a second dog has done wonders. Zoey is no longer as bossy and bitchy as before. She is much nicer and tolerant of other dogs. Her confidence is up and her fears have calmed down. Having Mr. Reckless Abandon Live in the Moment in our home has been a tremendous influence.

 

If you heart says Poco, then go for it. It does not sound like a disatrous beginning and if Poco was still trying to engage her then perhaps all it will take is a little time.

 

Fingers crossed for your second meeting.

[sweet_ceana]

Everything in me says that Poco should come home with us. It is just such a big decision. I think Chris and I are psyching ourselves out. This dog is everything I could ask for. He is small enough that our apartment can't be run in just one stride, he is affectionate, he is smart as a whip, he is a very focused dog, and he is high drive but I can keep him busy with games and activities not just running around. (The other dog expends all of his energy physically, he likes to learn- but is not very good at it) He plays frisbee, which is a must in any house with Ceana lol. I love his confidence- he is cautious, but in a good way. Once he has met you or even Ceana he is as confident as can be.

[Patty Abel]

If you really like the prospective new addition I think it will work out! There will be scuffles, but be patient. I think Polo's continuing to try to intiate play is a good sign. They will fall in love. My Jack was a very dominant alpha. I got Max, a fearful and reactive deaf dog. It was just awful at first...but they ended up great buds. That's the two of them napping together on my web-page. At the time I was not very dog savvy and my vet told me to make good things come to Jack when Max was around(only treat Jack when Max was there). You are already way beyond that stage with all these play dates and planning. Good work and best wishes for your new family addition.

[Tassie]

I'd agree about going with the dog that you want. Miss Ceana will sort herself out if you guys do what others have suggested. And hey - even when you have a situation like mine when I've had both my dogs from puppyhood, they can still have scuffles every now and again. They are a bit over 5 and a half, the boy is 7 weeks older than the girl, but on the whole she is dominant. The scuffles are usually over resource issues. Most times they are very mild, but occasionally I have to actively step in and enforce a time-out.

 

I too like Lauren's rule - as long as it's something they're allowed to have, whoever has it gets to keep it. I'd add another one, to protect a dog who doesn't want to be bothered at the time.

 

Good luck with the decision.

[Bordercentrics]

The other thing to keep in mind, since you haven't ever had a second dog, its that there will be ups and downs as the new dog settles in/matures. This is NORMAL. We have found that when things go off, if we sit back and think about who was involved, and who they are, we can always find a way to manage a situation and change the dynamic. Some of this stuff would even be true when you adopt a single dog and have no other in the house. We tend to worry more when it involves two or more dogs. We now have four dogs, three of them being female Border Collies (so we're nuts). We have one queen bitch, and two soft girls. Even the softest one challenged the queen as she matured, but we made it clear that the status quo would remain. I doubt that Meg actually needed our help, but we gave it so she knew she had support. The youngest isn't there yet. I expect she will be at some point. It never seems to be all sweetness and light all the time, but know your dogs, manage the situations they get into, and just ask the boards for help if you need it. Poco sounds lovely, so good luck!

 

Kathy Robbins