Another "White" Topic

[stockdogranch]

Ok, so this all spins off from the white-headed thread...if a mostly white-bodied bitch (out of a run-of-the-mill white factored bitch (full collar, white inside of back legs, etc.), by a non-white factored (I think) male) is bred to a non-white factored male, what do you get? Or if she were bred to a white-factored male? Anyone have any idea how the white body plays out? Just curious...

A

[juliepoudrier]

Anyone have any idea how the white body plays out? Just curious...

I have *no* real idea, but just some intuitive thoughts. Any time you breed white factored to white factored, you run a greater chance of getting dogs with *a lot* of white on them, but the genetics of it are tricky enough, with so many other factors involved, that I don't think you can really predict.

 

The only real experience I have is the one litter I bred. Twist is white-factored, to the point of being what I would consider piebald. Roy Johnson's Sonny, the sire, is also white factored, but if you didn't know to look for white running up the hind stifle region, you wouldn't automatically know he carries the white factoring gene (he's pictured in a recent issue of The Working Border Collie and on casual glance looks like a classic B&W).

 

Of the 8 pups in the litter, only one was mostly white, and he has a black head/mask and a lot of ticking. One pup was piebald much like Twist, with maybe a little more white (maybe an illusion of more white because he has little or no ticking, unlike Twist, who is ticked). Two pups were classically marked B&W (and though I just saw one of them yesterday, I can't tell you if they have white factoring apparent). One pup is mostly black, with just a little white on the muzzle, small bit of white on the back of the neck, and on the paws. His white areas are heavily ticked. One pup is marked much like Twist, but is grey she is so heavily ticked in her white areas (Phoebe). The two pups Roy kept are classically marked except that they are also very heavily ticked and so very grey in their white areas (one looks almost exactly like Phoebe only bigger). It turns out that Twist's and Sonny's lines both carry the gene for ticking, and apparently we doubled up on it in half the pups, all of whom are very heavily ticked. The piebald pup and the classic B&W pups have little or no ticking. And Pip, the white pup, has a lot of ticking, but not to the extent of the other ticked pups (though if you rub his outer guard hairs backward, you find that he's mostly black underneath). So I bred two white factored dogs, worried the whole time that I would get a litter of white pups, but really got just one that was mostly white, and the majority are quite dark due to ticking.

 

That said, I know of a breeding of two white factored dogs who are both piebald, and the litter was mostly white, with just a bit of color here and there on the pups. So perhaps you run a greater risk of mostly white puppies if both parents have A LOT of white vs., say, two white factored dogs who are more classically marked. But then again, I know of another breeding of two white factors, neither what I would consider piebald, though the bitch had a lot of white (but less than Twist) and there were a couple of pups with a lot of white on the heads, and at least one was deaf.

 

The point of all this is to say I don't think you can predict. I always said that I wouldn't breed two white factored dogs together because the risk of getting all white pups was too great, and as I said I worried myself to death over my Twist x Sonny litter, but it came out fine. And then of course you need to consider what other color genes might be in play (like the ticking). Twist and Sonny both carry red, too, but apparently that combination didn't make it out in the litter, which answers the question of how red dogs can persist in lines without actually throwing red pups....

 

Oh, and in answer to your first question, even if the male isn't white factored, couldn't he carry a copy of the gene for white factoring? I don't know the answer to that, but thinking of one pup in this litter, Blue, the mostly black one, I wonder if it isn't possible that even though he isn't white factored, since he comes from white factored parents isn't it possible he carries the gene for it and could pass it on even though he's not white factored himself? If so, you'd have to look back in the pedigree further for white factoring.

 

All anecdotal evidence to be sure....

 

J.

[Laurae]

I know next to nothing about breeding, but I can report that in my Taz's litter, both parents were white factored, but black dogs (one a classic b&w, the other a black tri) with not much white. Of the six in the litter, three were mostly white, three were black (two were b&w, Taz is a black tri). Two of the white pups tested deaf at birth. Taz is white factored, and I'm not sure about the other two black dogs.

[Pippin's person]

I too know almost nothing about breeding, but recently saw a litter from a white factored tri bitch and a white factored red tri sire (both fairly classically marked, though the male has a lot of white on his body--not so much on his head). They produced one BW split-face with a lot of white and white-factored; two almost completely white pups (both with white ears, one with a black split face adn the other with a lot of ticking); two red-tris, one white-factored; and a red split-face, white factored. None were deaf, but it seems that white-factoring was pretty dominant.

 

Another litter I know of was a blue tri merle bitch with white factoring and a classic BW sire with white factoring and all seven pups were white-factored, three with predominantly white bodies (but not white ears). None deaf.

[stockdogranch]

Thanks for all the replies. I have no idea yet if the mostly white-bodied bitch I am referring to will be worthy of breeding, but at this point, she sure is a strong one. The next several years will tell, when I see how she proves herself. Right now, she's lightening fast, and totally fearless (working cattle--she's way too strong for sheep), but I don't know yet how her thinking will mature. I think if I ever did consider breeding her, it would be to a non-white factored male, all other things being equal,

A

[Liz P]

Thanks for all the replies. I have no idea yet if the mostly white-bodied bitch I am referring to will be worthy of breeding, but at this point, she sure is a strong one. The next several years will tell, when I see how she proves herself. Right now, she's lightening fast, and totally fearless (working cattle--she's way too strong for sheep), but I don't know yet how her thinking will mature. I think if I ever did consider breeding her, it would be to a non-white factored male, all other things being equal,

A

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think the exact amount of white is not controlled directly by the genes (the exact amount is controlled by how the stem cells migrate). In other words, a dog with 75% white may have the exact same set of genes as a dog with 50% white. If you double up on white factored you get anywhere from piebald to full body white. I've seen 2 white factored dogs with just a little white up the thigh bred together and produce pups that were mostly black, classic marked, white factored, piebald and mostly white.

[KathyF]

Are there any health problems associated with mostly white dogs?? Is the only reason that a person might not want to breed two white factored dogs is because the white dogs are not supposed to be respected by livestock?? I have seen plenty of white dogs working stock just fine, yet they are still frowned upon.

 

Kathy

[stockdogranch]

No health problems that I am aware of. I think it's just a matter of most people prefer traditional markings, along with the theory about white dogs not having power or being tested a lot or whatever. This is my first experience with a white bodied dog, but she's all power. In fact, I recently met another mostly white dog, belonging to a new student. He's cattle bred, and he, too, is all power.

 

A

[KathyF]

My husband's dog is predominately white and I don't see any problems with him working sheep. He certainly seems to have enough power. I also know of a white dog down in Iowa who has plenty of power and also works cattle. My husband's dog has grown on me and now I don't mind a dog with a lot of chrome on it.

 

Kathy

[juliepoudrier]

Are there any health problems associated with mostly white dogs??

Kathy,

The only potential health problem I know of is the whole white ears = potential for deafness (there's another thread that discusses that topic). There is a strong prejuduce against white dogs because of the "stock will challenge them" thing, but I guess your and Anna's observations would indicate that such a belief may not be founded in fact. I suppose it would take a bunch of white dogs out there doing well and not being challenged by stock before folks may change their minds, and even then they may not. I'm waiting to see how my mostly white dog turns out in that respect.

 

Liz P wrote:

If you double up on white factored you get anywhere from piebald to full body white. I've seen 2 white factored dogs with just a little white up the thigh bred together and produce pups that were mostly black, classic marked, white factored, piebald and mostly white.

 

What you're saying is that there's no prediciting the amount of white any pup from a two-white-factored breeding might carry, and in fact, you might even get pups with little or no white at all. Personally, if I were breeding a mostly white dog, I'd try to find a dog who was not white factored, but if the best match for my dog happened to be white factored, I'd take the chance, realizing that there's the potential deafness issue and the prejudice of puppy buyers against mostly white dogs.

 

J.

[Northof49]

Ok, so this all spins off from the white-headed thread...if a mostly white-bodied bitch (out of a run-of-the-mill white factored bitch (full collar, white inside of back legs, etc.), by a non-white factored (I think) male) is bred to a non-white factored male, what do you get? Or if she were bred to a white-factored male? Anyone have any idea how the white body plays out? Just curious...

A

 

It also depends on what is in the pedigree. They could still end up producing pups with a lot of white on them. You can't predict just from that - you have to see what is behind both the dam and the sire, and what their littermates are like, have produced etc.

[Laurae]

My Taz's uncle Ben is a split-face white and has tons of power. But sometimes when he's driving, if the sheep are particularly tough (and with all other things being equal), his owner noticed that he likes to keep on the side where the black side of his face is facing them.

 

I'm not saying white dogs have less power--as I said, Ben is plenty powerful. But the way he positions himself is interesting.

[blackacre]

Well, I'd say it was a lot more complicated genetically than one's observation of a dog's phenotype ie how much it shows and where. I've seen predominantly white pups produced from a breeding between classically marked black and white parents (no white up the stifle etc.) In fact, I seem to recall that Stu Davidson's Craig produced a lot of white even though he was not, to all appearances, white factored himself.

While I'm thinking about it, I also seem to recall that it is now understood that the gene that causes white on the body in a piebald pattern is different from the white factor that produces white heads.

A

[Liz P]

Many dogs do not look white factored but are. I know a stud who looked like a classic marked dog except for a group of about 5 white hairs on his back. When bred to a bitch known to be white factored but who was mostly black (she did have white up the inside of her thighs). They produced piebald pups.

 

No, I don't think you can really predict how a breeding of white factored dogs will turn out. You just have to decide if you are willing to take the risk, or rather, how much risk you are willing to take. Any time you breed dogs it's a risk...

 

I don't personally buy into the white dogs not being respected thing. A dog either has power or it doesn't.

 

The main health problem with white dogs is deafness.

[Lenajo]

Sp gene (the piebald gene) is incompletely dominent so you can get lots of variation of the amount of white.

 

The amount of white is also determined by when the myelin (color) stops coming down the neural sheath. That is...how much black will "cover" the white on the dog. This is what you see in Dalmations in particular...born white, the myelin keeps coming and the spots "appear". As far as I know there is no research showing understanding of the "why" of when and where myelin stops.

 

I'm told this is is also the reason (in general anyway) why you can clone a calico cat, and get a tabby. Perhaps one of our gene experts can tackle the explanation there (or any errors in terms above LOL)

 

The biggest concern in white is deafness, but there are other concerns about health as well. Dogs with excessive white (per Dodds DVM, and related research) and/or dilution are more prone to autoimmune disorders such as AIHA (auto immune hemolytic anemia), lupus, vaccine and chemical sensitivity.

[Liz P]

The biggest concern in white is deafness, but there are other concerns about health as well. Dogs with excessive white (per Dodds DVM, and related research) and/or dilution are more prone to autoimmune disorders such as AIHA (auto immune hemolytic anemia), lupus, vaccine and chemical sensitivity.

 

I've read that as well, however, all the studies I have seen lumped the white dogs with albino, dilute, merle, etc.

[Lenajo]

I've read that as well, however, all the studies I have seen lumped the white dogs with albino, dilute, merle, etc.

 

yes, they did. Lack of pigment - how much, where, and even what breed played a big role imo. I would be less leary of a mostly white BC from strong healthy working lines than any white doberman or boxer for example.

[HotshotH]

Just thought I would add my two cents. I don't know a great deal about this but what I can tell you is I know of a long coated white factored male that was bred with a shortcoated NON white factor the result was 6 pups 3 of which were long coated white factors and 3 which were short coated NON white factors? Strange coincidence probably but very bizarre!!!

[Lenajo]

Just thought I would add my two cents. I don't know a great deal about this but what I can tell you is I know of a long coated white factored male that was bred with a shortcoated NON white factor the result was 6 pups 3 of which were long coated white factors and 3 which were short coated NON white factors? Strange coincidence probably but very bizarre!!!

 

Sounds prefectly normal actually.