Lizmo Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I've been reading some older threads on commands that need to be tought for herding (great board!), anyways I'm confused as to why you need to teach a "that'll do" command if it means (correct me if I'm wrong) "stop what your doing and come to me". Is that not the same thing as a recall "Here"? Also, how do you teach the "that'll do" command? I've tought leave it commands, but obviously it's not totally like that. Can you use these commands like this in everyday life, when not working? Or should they be saved for just herding stock? What's a good age for a pup to start on sheep? Okay, I admit, I'm totally addicted to herding even though I don't have a pup yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 People teach "that'll do" because "come" and "here" mean different things in a working context. "Come" is a variation of "come by." People use "come by" to tell the dog to move in a clockwise direction around the sheep. In general, saying "come" indicates a shorter, usually slower flank, which you might use when you are closer to the sheep or do not want the dog to go all the way around them. "Here" is often used to ask the dog to come in closer to you. "That'll do" pretty much means that the particular task or work session is over. I never use "here" or "come" in a recall way off stock either. "That'll do" is just habit for me when I need my dog to stop what he or she is doing and come to me. So it's not confusing for the dog. Even Sophie, my nonherding dog, responds much better to "that'll do" than "come," which I trained first when she was a puppy. But I think I just started saying "that'll do" when I first started stockwork. I don't really even remember switching. I'll let the pros discuss when the best time to start a pup is, but I'd introduce a dog to working stock when he or she is about 8 or 9 months old. If the pup shown sustained interest, he or she is ready; if not, I'd put the pup up (so to speak) and reintroduce the following month, and so on until the pup was ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 And then there's Lucy who got wise to the "that'll do" command, and tried to get one over on me- she can be FRESH. Also, sometimes I would set her up for a come by, and then she would angle out to the right, so I would point to the away, and say "we are going THAT way" and OFF she would go. Oops- didn't mean to teach her that.... People teach "that'll do" because "come" and "here" mean different things in a working context. "Come" is a variation of "come by." People use "come by" to tell the dog to move in a clockwise direction around the sheep. In general, saying "come" indicates a shorter, usually slower flank, which you might use when you are closer to the sheep or do not want the dog to go all the way around them. "Here" is often used to ask the dog to come in closer to you. "That'll do" pretty much means that the particular task or work session is over. I never use "here" or "come" in a recall way off stock either. "That'll do" is just habit for me when I need my dog to stop what he or she is doing and come to me. So it's not confusing for the dog. Even Sophie, my nonherding dog, responds much better to "that'll do" than "come," which I trained first when she was a puppy. But I think I just started saying "that'll do" when I first started stockwork. I don't really even remember switching. I'll let the pros discuss when the best time to start a pup is, but I'd introduce a dog to working stock when he or she is about 8 or 9 months old. If the pup shown sustained interest, he or she is ready; if not, I'd put the pup up (so to speak) and reintroduce the following month, and so on until the pup was ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 In his 2nd DVD, The Shepard's Pup, Derek Scrimgeuer shows how to use "here" to mean "come straight into my hands," while he uses "that'll do" to mean to flank around behind him as he pats a leg to show the dog which side to flank on. Depending in what he wants, the dog will either stop at his feet, facing the sheep, on the side of his body opposite to the patted leg, or else it could continue a wide flank behind Derek. He'll use "here" for shedding and "that'll do" when he starts to teach inside flanks. From a distance, he calls them with a "that'll do," as I recall. Personally, I can't wait for his 3rd DVD, due out Real Soon Now, from Geri Byrne. Derek has a tremendous way of adding value to even the smallest behaviors in training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Keep hearing about this pup coming- Do tell!!!! Where, what sex, what colour? Okay, as you have admitted- you will be working sheep with your pup. Do yourself a favor, and start saving now- it will become something you can't control soon enough- that force to make you drive hours to work sheep, and go back and back and back. You will also see that your home life (as in tidy house) suffers, and the sun rises and sets out of the sheep's butts (kidding for us, but oh so true for the dogs!). I've been reading some older threads on commands that need to be tought for herding (great board!), anyways I'm confused as to why you need to teach a "that'll do" command if it means (correct me if I'm wrong) "stop what your doing and come to me". Is that not the same thing as a recall "Here"? Also, how do you teach the "that'll do" command? I've tought leave it commands, but obviously it's not totally like that. Can you use these commands like this in everyday life, when not working? Or should they be saved for just herding stock? What's a good age for a pup to start on sheep? Okay, I admit, I'm totally addicted to herding even though I don't have a pup yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 I think that many people use these commands in ways that suit them particularly well. I like to use "here" like Derek Scrimgeour - come straight to me. He explains that that is preparation for shedding. I also use it when the dog is on one side of the stock and I need an off-balance flank, and say "here" to get him started towards me and then say "away" or "come bye" to get him to continue in that off-balance direction. Once he's learned the flanks well, he wouldn't need the "here". I use "that'll do" to mean the job is over (or whatever you are doing that is a good thing) is done (versus "leave it" which means that what you are doing is not a good thing and you must stop and leave). When I say "that'll do", I don't much care if the dog comes right to me or just off the job. For instance, I might say, "that'll do, go hop" if I want him to head straight to the stocktank. If I want him to come right to me, I say "that'll do, here". What I find interesting and challenging is trying to teach something with the future in mind - in other words, what will you be doing in further work that dictates how you should be approaching what you are doing now. A simple example is not teaching a recall with "come" as you will be using "come" and "come bye" to mean something else later on. That is something I like about Derek Scrimgeour's DVDs - he explains why and how he is doing things a certain way with regards to further training. It makes what he does understandable and reasonable. I have to say that I don't always remember to do what he shows when I am working with my dog, and that won't be helpful to me if I can't/don't remember to do it right the first time and all the time. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Keep hearing about this pup coming- Do tell!!!! Where, what sex, what colour? Okay, as you have admitted- you will be working sheep with your pup. Do yourself a favor, and start saving now- it will become something you can't control soon enough- that force to make you drive hours to work sheep, and go back and back and back. You will also see that your home life (as in tidy house) suffers, and the sun rises and sets out of the sheep's butts (kidding for us, but oh so true for the dogs!). LOL! I've got a trainer lined up and been to a few of her classes. I think I like how she works, though I'm totally new to this. I've been in contact with Christine Henry, though no final plans have been made for who she and David are breeding and when. So, time will tell Heh, though I do want a male - black and white. But yes, I fully plan on training this dog on stock even though it may be that I can only take classes right now about 2-3 times a month due to how far the trainer is. I have a friend that has a farm with stock so I'm going to see if maybe I can use his place for some time after I've taken more lessons - and know what I'm doing. I think that many people use these commands in ways that suit them particularly well. I like to use "here" like Derek Scrimgeour - come straight to me. He explains that that is preparation for shedding. I also use it when the dog is on one side of the stock and I need an off-balance flank, and say "here" to get him started towards me and then say "away" or "come bye" to get him to continue in that off-balance direction. Once he's learned the flanks well, he wouldn't need the "here". I use "that'll do" to mean the job is over (or whatever you are doing that is a good thing) is done (versus "leave it" which means that what you are doing is not a good thing and you must stop and leave). When I say "that'll do", I don't much care if the dog comes right to me or just off the job. For instance, I might say, "that'll do, go hop" if I want him to head straight to the stocktank. If I want him to come right to me, I say "that'll do, here". What I find interesting and challenging is trying to teach something with the future in mind - in other words, what will you be doing in further work that dictates how you should be approaching what you are doing now. A simple example is not teaching a recall with "come" as you will be using "come" and "come bye" to mean something else later on. That is something I like about Derek Scrimgeour's DVDs - he explains why and how he is doing things a certain way with regards to further training. It makes what he does understandable and reasonable. I have to say that I don't always remember to do what he shows when I am working with my dog, and that won't be helpful to me if I can't/don't remember to do it right the first time and all the time. Best wishes! I guess I'm just going to have to get these books/videos by Derek Scrimgeour Everyone recommends them! I've got the books "Lessons From a Sheepdog" and "Herding Dogs" coming. Thanks for explaining more to me! Also, I'm sure this will be explained in some of the books I read, but what does shedding and flanking mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Shedding is splitting off one, or more sheep from the group, and holding it separate. It is a very useful job- and thusly, is tested at open BC trials. Flanking means to go around the sheep, either clockwise- come by, or counter clockwise- away to me. LOL! I've got a trainer lined up and been to a few of her classes. I think I like how she works, though I'm totally new to this. I've been in contact with Christine Henry, though no final plans have been made for who she and David are breeding and when. So, time will tell Heh, though I do want a male - black and white. But yes, I fully plan on training this dog on stock even though it may be that I can only take classes right now about 2-3 times a month due to how far the trainer is. I have a friend that has a farm with stock so I'm going to see if maybe I can use his place for some time after I've taken more lessons - and know what I'm doing. I guess I'm just going to have to get these books/videos by Derek Scrimgeour Everyone recommends them! I've got the books "Lessons From a Sheepdog" and "Herding Dogs" coming. Thanks for explaining more to me! Also, I'm sure this will be explained in some of the books I read, but what does shedding and flanking mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Ah, thank you!! LOL I've been reading those so many times and always wonder what they mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 I'm sure I left some detail out, and someone will remind me, but that's the general gist Ah, thank you!! LOL I've been reading those so many times and always wonder what they mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 In terms of books, I would heartily recommend Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs" as a first book. It is rather short and sweet in terms of explaining the very basics, with excellent illustrations. It's limited in it's scope (I think it's really a beginner's book) but generally very clear and concise. I found the books you ordered very good but a bit overwhelming for me as a beginner - too much information for me to start. Derek's book was something I could get my mind around. "Only" getting to lessons 2-3 times a month? I have considered myself fortunate to get to lessons once a month! It slows the progress down, and I am glad you can go more often. Be cautious of practicing on your own, at least until you and your dog have a reasonable grasp of what you are doing. It is easy to make mistakes on your own and get them engrained when working without someone to show you your mistakes. David and Christine have good dogs and are careful about breeding. I wish you the best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Do you mean "Herding Dogs, Progressive Training"? I think that's a good beginner's book, too. (I'm a beginner, and it was easy for me to understand and the little illustrations help) I hope to get "Talking Sheepdogs" soon, too. Also, I use "that'll do" to mean "stop whatever you are doing". I don't use it as a recall. The only dog who really seems to "get it" is Alex, since I trained him with it from the beginning, but I'm hoping Jack will catch on next. Good luck with the puppy search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted October 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Do you mean "Herding Dogs, Progressive Training"? I think that's a good beginner's book, too. (I'm a beginner, and it was easy for me to understand and the little illustrations help) I hope to get "Talking Sheepdogs" soon, too. Yes, thats the book. Glad to hear it's a good book. Thank you! In terms of books, I would heartily recommend Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs" as a first book. It is rather short and sweet in terms of explaining the very basics, with excellent illustrations. It's limited in it's scope (I think it's really a beginner's book) but generally very clear and concise. I found the books you ordered very good but a bit overwhelming for me as a beginner - too much information for me to start. Derek's book was something I could get my mind around. "Only" getting to lessons 2-3 times a month? I have considered myself fortunate to get to lessons once a month! It slows the progress down, and I am glad you can go more often. Be cautious of practicing on your own, at least until you and your dog have a reasonable grasp of what you are doing. It is easy to make mistakes on your own and get them engrained when working without someone to show you your mistakes. David and Christine have good dogs and are careful about breeding. I wish you the best of luck! Well, I was just considering lots of people have sheep to practice on everyday, hehe. But yes, I am very grateful to be able to go just 2 or 3 times a month. I will be very careful to practice on my own, and like I said, it wouldn't be for a while till I have a good handle on things. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Here is a list of commands that you might like : http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/sheepdog-...terminology.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted October 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 ^^^ Oooo thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 Have you put any thought into purchasing a started dog instead of a puppy? They can help teach you so much more, BC tend to bond quickly, and you could start working pretty quickly, as well as the dog would have to some degree proven to have the ability to work. Just a thought. Darci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted October 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 Have you put any thought into purchasing a started dog instead of a puppy? They can help teach you so much more, BC tend to bond quickly, and you could start working pretty quickly, as well as the dog would have to some degree proven to have the ability to work. Just a thought. Darci No, I do not want to purchase an already started dog. For the reason that it won't be working for me on a farm - as I don't have a farm. I'm not sure how to put this, so just bare with me.... I made many mistakes with my first dog, purely because I didn't know anything, I was just a child wanting a puppy. I want to change that. I want to raise, socialize, train, ect with this puppy right - hense why I'm here asking questions I would like the experience of training my first working Border collie. As this is something I want to do for the rest of my life. I'm not sure if that made sense, but basically, I would like to start from the beginning and do things right this time. Thank you, though, for the suggestion ETA: Sorry, that sounds very selfish, it is not ment to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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