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slicing & overrunning at the top


Laurae
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Taz's outrun has been improving steadily to the point that he is finally capable of square flanks and consistently being nice and wide while we are at "home," which is actually my trainer's field (he is still much too tight when working at any new places, at least at first, and I'm actively looking to work him other places more frequently to address this). My question is about his lift, or maybe it's just the top of his outrun. He still slices and overruns sometimes--sometimes causing the sheep to start moving before he is properly behind them, other times causing him to overrun and then needing to double back.

 

He's youngish (turned 3 in late June) and we do work primarily in my trainer's field, which is really too small for him (it's maybe 300 yards long but kind of narrow). We can use a bigger field right behind her property but have to wait until the last of the alfalfa growing there is cut for the year--so this field is really only available to us after the first frost until spring. I am wondering whether Taz's slicing/overrunning is something we should be working on to fix now or whether it may be due to his age and the pressure he feels working in the confines of the field we're now working on and thus may actually resolve itself with some more time, miles, and room to run.

 

Any thoughts?

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Training advice is notoriously unreliable without someone actually seeing what's going on.

And it helps if that someone knows what the hell they are talking about. Since neither of

these criteria apply to me, I feel obliged to say something.

 

Seriously though, I was just having a discussion with a pro about this a few days ago, so I can't resist

commenting. (My 2 year old had a habit of over-running a little even when he wasn't too tight.

In his case, as it turned out, just calling his name and reminding him to take a little

more responsibility at the top has put things right, I think.)

 

Anyway, if a dog is too tight at the top, it is common for them to overrun as well.

These two things often seem to be coupled for at least a couple of reasons.

The dog feels they have to zip over there because they bumped them on the way in and the dog

worries about losing them, or sometimes the dog knows/feels it has crowded the sheep's "flight zone"

and is running through that unpleasant, illegal, high pressure area. Other reasons might be valid here also.

 

I bet if you fix the slicing he will give you a good, careful, deep approach,

i.e., the over-running will either go away or diminish to the point where you can fix

it just with a simple correction or two.

 

He's old enough to do it right.

And there's no point to practicing it the wrong way.

Sorry if this is already obvious to you.

 

charlie

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Thanks Charlie. Nothing about stockwork with my dog is obvious to me :D

Tomorrow, we are going to work in a big field (a new field!), so I'll see what he does. Fortunately, my trainer will be with me. I hope to see how big a role the pressure of the fences plays in his slicing because that pressure won't be there--though I suppose he'll probably run tighter than normal anyway just because it is a new place. In any case, I'll try to work on the slicing.

 

I am never quite sure when to work on something and when it's best to step back because "he's a young dog," which I suppose means that he will grow out of it. Taz is impatient, and I think that's why he slices. (Of course, I could be completely wrong :rolleyes: .) He uses his body more than he needs to and has only really been starting to use his eye the past six or eight months. As a novice handler training my first dog, I don't have much experience to draw on to compare Taz's progress with that of other dogs. I don't want Taz to practice too many bad habits as I work to develop judgment on these kinds of things...

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I have seen trainers work on slicing right up next to the fence, so I'm hopeful it's something you can fix regardless of where you are. Ted was highly uncomfortable on the (er, oh yeah) right side, but with a bit of encouragement to give to the sheep, it helped him relax quite a bit. I have to watch when he flanks that way and if he lays back his ears and gets that pinwheel spin to his eyes as he goes around, most of the time I can just steady him with a word.

 

I've noticed if I am stargazing and miss that chance, he will flatten out at the top and whiz by the balance point.

 

Likewise, Ben, who is the champion of flat topped flanks and buzzing by balance (he is very looseyed forsooth, in addition to being trained by me exclusively), is benefiting from my now being aware of where I need to fix this.

 

So, I don't know if that helps but you know, what Charlie said.

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I have seen trainers work on slicing right up next to the fence, so I'm hopeful it's something you can fix regardless of where you are. Ted was highly uncomfortable on the (er, oh yeah) right side, but with a bit of encouragement to give to the sheep, it helped him relax quite a bit. I have to watch when he flanks that way and if he lays back his ears and gets that pinwheel spin to his eyes as he goes around, most of the time I can just steady him with a word.

 

I've noticed if I am stargazing and miss that chance, he will flatten out at the top and whiz by the balance point.

 

Okay, so this kind of brings up the point that I don't exactly know how to fix slicing at the top. Right now, I just sort of try to catch him when it looks like he's cutting in and correct him. Are you saying you are looking for ear movements while your Ted is flanking? Oh my, I am clearly not paying close enough attention to my dog! I guess I should be watching for little tell-tale signs like that. And what is this about working on slicing right next to the fence? Is that the exercise where you stand against a fence with your sheep and flank a dog a few steps clockwise, stop him and then let him go a few more steps, then switch to the away side, and correct him if he cuts in?

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Hi, Laura!

 

By no means an expert, but things I've recently been working on...

 

I was just working in a rectangular field for the first time on Saturday. My trainer asked me to stand in the middle and stare at an object directly across from me in the distance. She asked if I felt any pressure. I did - from the sides (the long sides, not the short front and back). She told me that's what the dog feels. In a bigger field, relatively less pressure, but still there.

 

Next - the outrun. Correct the slicing in as soon as you can!! Haley & I have been working on this for months!!! What I've been told is that you correct this by widening out the top portion of the outrun (3:00 to 12:00 or 9:00 to 12:00). My instructor has me working in half circles along the fence with me between the sheep and the dog, and stepping out just after the dog reaches the halfway point of the circle. This pushes Haley out (most of the time) and she and the sheep have changed sides. This sets me up to practice the other direction with her. There are times I have to chase Haley out at the top, running at her swishing the stockcane. We only do it for 5-10 minutes or so, so I don't burn her out on it. Create a clear picture in Taz's mind about what you expect now, so you are better prepared for spring trials. If he can do it in the hardest place possible (small, rectangular field), he can do it ANYWHERE!

 

When Haley slices in on an outrun, she goes from a nice head & shoulder turn away from the sheep that she maintains up until about 1:00 (or 11:00) and the head, shoulders, and upper body turn directly in on the sheep. My trainer says that she should maintain her head, shoulder, and upper body out of the circle she's creating, occasionally turning her head to check in & see where the sheep may be moving to, all the way through the outrun until she hits the lift point, where she should turn in quickly, bump the flight zone of the sheep, and then pause and settle into a walk for the fetch. We're getting there on the outrun. Lift & fetch have really improved since outrun improved. Sheep are more settled with a nice outrun. Sloppy outrun causes flighty sheep! Or so I've learned.

 

Now you've inspired me to practice on Sunday!

 

Good luck!

Liz, Dryden & Haley

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Shorten up the outrun distance and go partway between him and the sheep; also make sure there's enough room behind the sheep for you dog to go deep. If over running still occurs when your dog is deep behind the sheep try moving (in the opposite direction of the outrun, towards where the dog is over running) to really change the balance point so your dog is waaaaay off balance in an attempt to get him to pay attention. Scold the dog for not paying attention. Do some balance work where you're trying to catch the dog off balance (move one way, stop, move the other, stop, then move the same way stop), make it a game but make sure the dog stays correct in distance off the sheep. Do another short outrun.

 

Mark

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Warning, novice giving advice here!

 

What I was taught is that you don't teach a dog an outrun, you teach it to read the sheep and not make contact with them until it hits the balance point at the top. In other words, if you are having trouble with the top of the outrun go back to working really close to the sheep. Do mini outruns and reinforce the idea that the dog does not make contact with the sheep until it is at the 12 o'clock position. You don't practice any longer outruns until the dog is perfect when asked to not make contact until it gets to the right spot. Once the dog is doing that correctly you start to ask the dog to do longer outruns, standing about midway between the dog and the sheep so you can push it out if it tries to drift in.

 

ETA, I know this is really basic beginner stuff, but when practicing your mini outruns keep your pressure on until the dog stops at the balance point and and make sure he has come around wide enough so that he actually has to take a few steps forward in order to make contact. Don't let him come forward to make contact unless he is in the right spot and he is listening to you. Being able to lift the sheep is the reward for doing a proper outrun. If he came in too close walk right at him through the sheep and start over again.

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Note that while we may talk about 12 oclock, it's really balance point which may or may not be at 12 oclock.

 

Mark

 

Very true, as long as the dog stops so that when he puts pressure on the sheep they will come straight toward the handler he is in the right spot.

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Okay, so we went to this new, enormous field today. Taz ran a bit tighter than normal, but he was clearly feeling his sheep in a much better way. He did not overflank, but he did still slice in at the top. Closer in, Taz responds to an "ach" but further out, he often acts like he cannot hear my correction (I think this is more to do with my timing than him blowing me off, though; I think by the time I register that he's cutting in and manage to get out a correction, he's already well on his way). Although he slices and at home sometimes has to double back, he seems to turn in in the right spot--that is, he corrects and recovers to find the balance point fairly easily. That's why it looks like impatience to me.

 

Am I making excuses for him again? (I have a really bad habit of doing that.)

 

I will work him again on Sunday in yet another field (he's been to this field before, but not very often), and I am going to work on the slicing. We'll shorten the distance and do the mini outruns, and try the fencework as well. Thanks for the suggestions.

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Just a thought...

 

Often times, the dog is "wrong" long before you think.

Put differently, by the time you see the dog slicing in, it is too

late - the dog is committed to the error - and a correction is not very effective.

Put still more differently, the dog often is going wrong early in the outrun,

but it is not apparent until the slice occurs.

Even over-running can be looked at this way: the dog is running out like

a maniac and is not thoughtfully thinking about the sheep. The error may

have occurred when the dog left your feet!

 

May or may not apply here, but...

Consider whether you can correct the dog much earlier on the outrun.

 

charlie

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OK, not like I really know what I'm talking about either but that said...

 

When you say he slices and overruns, do you mean he bumps the sheep off line (for what would be a nice fetch) and then has to overrun to compensate? The reason I ask is that I think that "flat" depends a lot on the dog and his/her effect on sheep.

 

Fly often has a somewhat flat topped outrun, but she "gets away" with it because she is not particularly "hot" and does not unsettle sheep unduly. She has one of those lovely, quiet demeanors around sheep such that while they are aware of her, they are not scared of her (works great with light flighty things like hair sheep and Cheviots; not so much with range ewes who probably need to be a little more scared of her than they are), so she can come in closer than some other dogs and her lifts are usually quite nice with no cues from me. I have also seen her go deeper when warranted, so it seems to me that when she is "flat" what it means is that she is reading her sheep and judging that she can get approximately so-and-so distance away without shifting them.

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One way I tell my students to see if they dog is going to slice....If you ride horses and the horse does a lead change, the body shifts, the nose turns a bit and the feet begin to shift...all in a nanosecond.....so my students begin to look for that one nanosecond body-lead change and that is the time for the corrrection. After that, the dog has committed and your time has passed.

 

 

Diane

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When you say he slices and overruns, do you mean he bumps the sheep off line (for what would be a nice fetch) and then has to overrun to compensate? The reason I ask is that I think that "flat" depends a lot on the dog and his/her effect on sheep.

 

He usually will start coming in subtly (at least, it's subtle to me) and the sheep will perhaps start moving away from him, but not necessarily at a run. He overruns past them and doubles back so that the beginning of the fetch is often zig zag. Then he usually settles and brings them in a pretty straight line to my feet (though he is not necessarily following behind them nicely, he's keeping them on line by guarding against the various draws). He can be a little sticky about draws, a little unwilling to give up the sheep, but seems to be getting better about that with experience.

 

It sounds like Fly has a calmer effect on the sheep than Taz. He sometimes fetches too fast--I am also working on his pacing. When Taz is reading his sheep and thinking, he is slow and relaxed and very calm with the sheep. He is not slicing or overrunning then. But I don't see that as often as I think I maybe should by now.

 

I try to look for earlier signs of him coming in, but it's a struggle for me. I will just have to pay more attention...I may have to change my avatar saying to "too little too late" :D:rolleyes:

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Before you send him on an outrun, pick out locations on the field along the correct path of the outrun that you want your dog to be outside of; this will help you locate when and where your dog is wrong. You may even start to see the changes in body language that Diane discussed.

 

Mark

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Before you send him on an outrun, pick out locations on the field along the correct path of the outrun that you want your dog to be outside of; this will help you locate when and where your dog is wrong. You may even start to see the changes in body language that Diane discussed.

 

Mark

 

Being spatially challenged, I used a cone. If my dog wasn't going to be outside of the cones I corrected her. The pen was on the other side of the field so I used that if she was fetching the sheep from that end. It worked for me!

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Even over-running can be looked at this way: the dog is running out like

a maniac and is not thoughtfully thinking about the sheep. The error may

have occurred when the dog left your feet!

 

This is what I meant by being aware of Ted's ears and eyes. He gets this panicked look and sometimes it's just a step from my feet! Robin had me break that up a bit with my body language and now he'll respond to a quick, "Ah!"

 

I am also having to remind myself to include some encouragement when he corrects himself and gets on track. Otherwise you can end up with a dog that goes off contact by default. Or worse, goes between the panicked buzz and the blowing off contact. Yeah, I made one of those.

 

I definitely prefer a dog that needs a bit of this to a dog that will lose contact. I need dogs that are looking for sheep all the way out there, because my sheep don't just collect when the dog comes. If they think they can get away with it, they'll stand and wait for the dog to notice them! :rolleyes:

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I have noticed Lucy, when she is thinking of tightening up, her head turns oh so little in, and then I say "GET OUT", and she does. She self corrects too, if the sheep are unsettled by her. I also make sure that she has more than enough room to get deep enough. I think slicing etc., should always be fixed asap, as these dogs do pattern well.

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