Observation on a useful dog

[Little Bo Boop]

Wormed my sheep tonight. Used my young dog Liz (2 1/2 yrs old) she was So helpful, did everything I asked...made me think I'd like to have a big sheep operation ;-) not in 95 degrees or 90% humidity , but I think I'd like the life. Anyway, Liz, as a trial dog, can be very aggravating. I know what she can do, beautiful outruns, lovely flanks, good feel for her sheep, plenty of power, yet very kind to her sheep....but take her to a trial, and she gets so wound up ;-(...if she could just crank it down a notch...I'd be in heaven :-) but then after tonight, and there have been other times as well where she's really got 'er done...so I really do appreciate her :-) I'm going to make extra sure I keep that in mind this trial season. I just hope that one day...somebody besides me will be able to see what a special dog she is. ANybody else in the same boat?

[Laurae]

Um, I think you are actually talking about my Taz dog...

 

ETA: Oh, I just read the subject line. I guess you're not talking about my Taz dog after all, unless we're talking about usefulness in finding lost tennis balls in the yard. I was more noting that I haven't yet been able to get the kind of seriousness on the trial field from Taz that I get when we work at home. Which I am sure really has more to do with my training than anything else

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmm...your subject line implies that a useful dog and a trial dog might be mutually exclusive things, and I'd have to disagree with that.

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

Hmmm...your subject line implies that a useful dog and a trial dog might be mutually exclusive things, and I'd have to disagree with that.

 

J.

 

 

Oh no, not at all (although I think there is an argument that can be made for that, and I'm not the only one that thinks that way, but thats a topic for another day) but thats not what I'm talking about in this case. I was just observing that I really enjoy my dog being able to help me, watching her her work in a practical manner, and then the frustration of trialing a young dog....no more no less...

[kelpiegirl]

I think some dogs excel in some things more than others. Some dogs are more suited to farm work, and some trial, and some do both with aplomb. Whatever- as long as the work gets done- and on the trial field y'all remember it is just simply a test of the dogs ability to work unknown sheep with an open ear

 

Lucy really likes to do "real stuff". I work on o, l, fs with her, and then some walk ups, etc, and then we move sheep from one place to the other- that they don't want to go. This really is up her alley- the challenge I guess? She knows her flanks, but not always on the fly, and well, we are still a young team.

 

The other day I wanted to move sheep from pasture a to b. I was in b. The sheep were sticking along the fence to the right of the gate in pasture a. I stayed in pasture b, and asked for a come bye, which meant she had to lose her cover (they were facing the draw), and flank behind, and then stop long enough to let them come in. She looked at me when I gave the come bye, and she flanked, and then I downed her behind the sheep, I then let the sheep see me, and she on her own, covered the draw and let them come to me. I know it sounds TRES simple, but that moment that she looked at me and got what I wanted was a memorable one.

 

Hope we have many more of those.

[Lenajo]

I've never seen a really good trial dog, that wasn't a good farm dog. However I have seen good farm dogs that cannot handle the detail and precision required to trial.

 

2.5 years is a *baby*. With an experienced handler she might be further along, but even they wouldn't expect her to be calm and complacent at public events. That takes time, years, and miles.

 

And for what it's worth, its not just the trial. You could take her to a stranger's farm tomorrow, and with new sheep and the farm owner looming, you'd likely have the same issues. It's a matter of experience.

[stockdogranch]

Well, I'll jump in here with my .02...I think all dogs (well-bred BCs, that is) should just be taught to work livestock. Period. Clean, honest, decent work--no cheap shots, no cheating on lie downs, no sloppy stuff. Taught to do jobs with stock. Taught to think for themselves, too. So, any dog that can work should/could be useful in some capacity on the farm/ranch (doesn't mean they can all do all the jobs, as they all have particular strengths & weaknesses). Then, those that have that "extra" are the ones that can make a trial dog. Mostly what it takes for trialling, I think, is being able to handle pressure. Pressure from the stock so (in sheep trials) they don't grip out; pressure from the handler who has to "micromanage" (at least sometimes) to keep all those lines straight; pressure from the whole trial setting: different setting & stock, other dogs, nerves, bagpipes, whatever else is going on.

 

So I guess it seems to me that perhaps not all dogs are cut out for trialling. Unfortunately, we now have a culture in which a great many dogs are bought and trained solely for trialling, without much "real work" at home, and without much "practical" training. So maybe we're expecting too much of every dog we buy, thinking it can/should become the next National Champion. I think most of the top trial dogs could easily handle farm/ranch work, but not all really great farm/ranch dogs could do well on the trial field.

 

An opinion probably not even worth the .02

 

And now I see I've crossposted with Lenajo, who pretty much says the same thing...

Anna

[Shoofly]

Yeah, what *they* said. I've yet to see an Open level dog that can't be useful on the farm, even the crappy ones. Might some of them let you down sometimes when the going gets tough? Yep. Same thing is probably true for countless "old Sheps" who never leave their own farm. Put them on another farm on different stock (or on a trial field and ask for some precision) and so might they. But i bet more trial dogs can do a good job on the farm than farm dogs on the trial field.

[Little Bo Boop]

ok, looks like I better clarify :-) The point I was trying to make was this. In this particular case, this young dog is fantastic helping me with practical work, she is IMO a little jewel, and I get/got a real sense of satisfaction when we are doing chores etc...last evening it just made me smile watching her work, and thats what I want to keep in mind as we continue on our trialing career. I fully understand that she's just a baby, and that hauling and miles are in order....as my friend keeps telling me, 'Your gonna love that dog as a 4 year old! " Her real problem though is she just gets so amped up at trials, she's like another dog...I've even spoken with Hub about her, as he had the same problem with one of the dogs that he's running now...he said he'd run her/him (can't remember now which dog) and think he had the best dog in the world...go to a trial and the dogs a basket case, said it just made him sick....and its just a matter of trial and error on what you do once you get to the trial---Leave them crated, let them out. Let them see the other dogs run, don't let them see any runs...run them or distract them with something before their run....I'm just going to have to hunt and peck I guess till I break the code with her. Hope thats all clear as mud now ;-)

[Lenajo]

We all understand you pride at having a useful farm dog. You are entitled!

 

It's just that being Border Collies ourselves, we took the conversation apart and addressed it line by line

 

My first herding dog was an Aussie, and a really good one - a little "catch dog" bred girl from a local bloodline. We went from 4 people versus 50 goats to 1 person + 1 dog controlling and managing 300 goats with ease. Nobody told me that stockdogs were not only unbelievably helpful, but something that would make you grin from ear to ear.

 

So yeah...we get it

[Little Bo Boop]

Nobody told me that stockdogs were not only unbelievably helpful, but something that would make you grin from ear to ear.

 

 

You do get it! Like I said, I just want to keep that vision, of the work that I know she can do, and that big grin on my face, even if we're not having the most beautiful moment on the trial field. Thanks.

[Lenajo]

Maybe you need to start looking at the trial field differently. That is, it's just like work. The only way the dog knows the difference if you tell them it's different.

[Little Bo Boop]

:-) I was thinking that exact thing today. Although I'd like to think its the same, it's probably not, but I need to just go to the post with her like I do my made dog, no worries, just send her and know she's going to be right...looks like I'm going to have to work on some mind control! :-)

[mobcmom]

I don't do hearding, but I find value in reading the postings.

 

The qestion reminded me of an article by Kathy Knox. The jist of the article dealt with the diference she noticed during trials, with one of her dogs, when she slowed down, changed her tone of voice, and relaxed her body language. They had better communication.

 

Border Collies seem to be very connected with their handlers/owners. I wondered if there was less stress and pressure working at home vs the stress and pressure of a hearding trial.

 

Just a thought ...

 

mobcmom

[Bill Fosher]

My dog Tweed is just like what you describe. When we're at a trial, he's very keyed up from all the whistling and activity. It takes an hour to calm him down enough to run him, and if anything exciting happens, you're back to square one. His brain falls out, and it's Katy bar the door.

 

At home, he's rock steady unless I lose my temper.

[Wendy V]

I think all dogs (well-bred BCs, that is) should just be taught to work livestock. Period. Clean, honest, decent work--no cheap shots, no cheating on lie downs, no sloppy stuff.

 

Anna, I've been thinking about what you said and how it relates to the old phrase, "taking a dog to the hill" to take its schooling on sheep. How does a real job versus "training" differ? Does it differ to the dog or to the handler? If the difference is so valuable, how does one recreate it, when there is so little stock work for the dogs to do?

[Little Bo Boop]

My dog Tweed is just like what you describe. When we're at a trial, he's very keyed up from all the whistling and activity. It takes an hour to calm him down enough to run him, and if anything exciting happens, you're back to square one. His brain falls out, and it's Katy bar the door.

 

At home, he's rock steady unless I lose my temper.

 

 

 

Yep, thats my Liz. But I'm getting a glimmer of hope here lately :-) I've been hauling her to other places to work and having other people come out and work their dogs here (that used to freak her out as well ) and I think it may be working...haven't seen that glazed look on her face in a couple of weeks, that look she gets at trials, where I'm totally out of the picture...like you said, its like her brain fell out of her head LOL. So I guess we'll see. First trial of the season in a couple of weeks....wish us luck

[stockdogranch]

Anna, I've been thinking about what you said and how it relates to the old phrase, "taking a dog to the hill" to take its schooling on sheep. How does a real job versus "training" differ? Does it differ to the dog or to the handler? If the difference is so valuable, how does one recreate it, when there is so little stock work for the dogs to do?

 

Well, I know that many train just to get round a trial course. So they not only work on the course a lot, but they drill--flanks, back and forth, lots of outruns on small groups of sheep, driving, crossdriving, etc. I do those things with the dogs, too, but, I do them in the context of gathering a group of sheep, taking them all to a sorting pen, using the dog to gate sort some off. Making the dog leave the big group while we now take the small group somewhere else and deposit them. Going back to the big group, sorting more, taking them somewhere else, etc. I also make sure they understand how to go round a group of sheep in a tight area like a small pen and bring them out CALMLY. We load them and take them out of a trailer. I put them on various numbers of stock as soon as I can. I have them hold stock off the feeder while I fill it with hay, then they can gather them to put them on the hay. They gather them to turn them out to the pasture in the mornings, and to put them into their night pen in the evenings. I have them hold the sheep while I worm (I don't have a chute or squeeze). I have them hold them while I just walk through the flock to inspect them. I have them hold while I catch a ewe who has just lambed to make sure her milk is fine. Etc. Etc. Etc. I don't have all that much work for them to do, either. I do keep a decent size flock (by SoCal standards, anyway), which I think is useful so they get used to more than just five or so. I just invent jobs for them to do. Lots of the jobs have to do with lying calmly while I move, the stock move, I might yell and scream at the sheep, flail around, and the dog needs to just chill. Lots of the jobs also have to do with calling off one group while we go get another. I really like a dog that is calm around stock--ready to work, but not nutso--until I put them to work. So lots of the jobs are geared for that. The skills involved are all the same, and are taught pretty much the same--a flank is still a flank, and it'd better be square, and a gather is still a gather, and should be done properly, etc., but the dogs seem to like it better when it's contextualized than just drilling over and over.

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

Coming to this a bit late, but I think Anna is dead on. I believe dogs learn better and faster when they are working at actual tasks as opposed to plain old drilling.

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

Coming to this a bit late, but I think Anna is dead on. I believe dogs learn better and faster when they are working at actual tasks as opposed to plain old drilling.

 

J.

 

 

I fully agree. And I try to keep away from that as much as I can. Drilling for a trial is boring for me as well as the dog. I try and set up practical tasks as much as possible. But thats not really the issue here, as I am very happy with the way my dog works---At Home, and now lately thank goodness, at other places as well. Its the trial nerves that get her/us. Guess I'll find out here soon if the extra hauling has helped any.

[Burnandreturn]

Take a twenty foot long 8 inches by 8 inches square beam lay it on the ground and most anyone of reasonable physical abilities could walk on down its entire length no problem turn around without touching the ground and walk back. Now take that same beam and raise it up off the ground thirty feet and try to walk it! Most people can't do it! It takes exactly the same physical skills and mental skills plus a little extra, not courage but concentration. The ability to focus on the job at hand, not the CONSEQUENCES of a miss step or mistake. The ability to focus in a relaxed efficient manner to do the job under a perceived pressure as in trialing takes special training not just lots of miles. The saying "practice makes perfect" is not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. Trialing is a little like shooting a gun. Lots of people can shoot and hit a target dead center time after time. Now just change one little thing......have someone start shooting back at you while you try to hit the target. The whole thing changes because of the mind worrying about the consequences of missing the target and getting shot. I won't write a book here but think about what you worry about and do some research on how to train your mind then your trialing will improve immensely. You all can think about how this little thing effects your dog. How you effect your dog thinking in a hectic nervous manner. It's not so much about controlling the dogs mind, it's about controlling your mind.

[C Crocker]

I won't write a book here but think about what you worry about and do some research on how to train your mind then your trialing will improve immensely. You all can think about how this little thing effects your dog. How you effect your dog thinking in a hectic nervous manner. It's not so much about controlling the dogs mind, it's about controlling your mind.

 

 

Your entire post was good, but this part I really think it extra important. At least it has proven so to me so far. I have shown horses for too many years to admit, but this year is my first to take my 4 yr old out to trial. She was professionally trained and trialed last yr as a Nursery dog, so I am fortunate to be trialing a finished dog. That said, I have been reading all year a column which is printed in an equine magazine that comes out twice monthly. Although it is aimed at the cutting exhibitor, I just substitute Border Collie for horse. These articles prepare one for showing , especially including "what can go wrong" and how to handle those situations. Between these articles, the excellent weekly lessons from my dog's trainer, the advice of a Welsh handler I know, and working at home, I have been able to keep my head reasonably screwed on right while trailing so far. Long way to go but I feel your advice is dead on --one must control one's own mind to achieve any level of success.

 

Carolyn

[Burnandreturn]

What kind of horses did you show?

[KathyF]

It's not so much about controlling the dogs mind, it's about controlling your mind.

That said, I have been reading all year a column which is printed in an equine magazine that comes out twice monthly. Although it is aimed at the cutting exhibitor, I just substitute Border Collie for horse. These articles prepare one for showing , especially including "what can go wrong" and how to handle those situations. Between these articles, the excellent weekly lessons from my dog's trainer, the advice of a Welsh handler I know, and working at home, I have been able to keep my head reasonably screwed on right while trailing so far. Long way to go but I feel your advice is dead on --one must control one's own mind to achieve any level of success.

 

Carolyn

 

Excellent points Carolyn!! I have read the book by Jane Savio, well I am on my third time of reading it this winter. It is an excellent book about preparing yourself for competition and your frame of mind.

 

BTW- What equine magazine are you referring to above?? I already get a couple of equine magazines as I find the articles in them very informative.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[C Crocker]

What kind of horses did you show?

 

 

As a kid everything I could get my hands on. Into my 20's I decided I liked the reined cowhorses best . I live in Ca , USA, where the reined cowhorse is a part of the state's history. So I started breeding horses and showing. Showed reiners alot ( stock horse with no cow work). Had a stallion for all his 24 years that I raised and stood to the public.

 

Hope you had a good Christmas.

 

Carolyn