TaliC2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 How did you know that your dog had what it takes to work sheep? Did you just take them out and see if they were interested and had any natural ability? What happened that made you know they did? What about instinct testing? I have heard various opinons about it but would like to hear all of yours. I have an appt. for my 7 month old puppy, Hammie, to be instinct tested and was wondering what to expect, and if it is really something that is a good indicator. The place where I am going to have him tested raises and trains working sheepdogs and they have a massive herd of sheep. They raise sheep to sell and also to eat. They sell the meat. I didn't have any interest in doing this at first, but the more I read and watch, the more I think I want to. thanks ahead for all of your replies. Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 From everything I've read, learned, and heard, at 7 months it won't mean much if he doesn't 'turn on' yet. That's still pretty young. They barely know what their bodies are doing at that age. Then again, some dogs turn right on anyway and seem ready to start. I don't know anybody that has an issue with 'instinct testing' as long as it's done by a qualified individual in a safe setting. The problems, I think, are with AKC's title that proclaims that a dog has been instinct tested. They actually give titles for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I think the problem with instinct testing is that it's a term that's used by AKC and it is essentially meaningless. As Rosanne notes, in AKC you will get a herding instinct certificate I think, meaning your dog has shown some interest in stock. Showing "sustained interest" or whatever they call it isn't an indication that the dog will actually work sheep or work them well. You need to introduce your youngster the sheep that are well dogbroke and see what he does. He may chase and try to bite or he may be scared of the sheep. Even if he "fails" an instinct test the first time out doesn't mean he's not worth training. I don't think it can hurt to have him introduced at this farm, unless they do something really strange, but if you're thinking of training him up, then I think you should research and make sure you find yourself a good trainer and personally I'd stay way away from anyone who's training dogs for AKC types, unless they have also shown ability to train a dog to the highest standards of USBCHA trilaing, which is the open class. JMO. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Frankly, any time I see someone going in for an "instinct test", I want to say "Run away!!" It's not that one doesn't evaluate a dog's instincts and talents when first exposing them to stock, it's that people who use the term "instinct test" tend to be selling a neatly packaged product which is not terribly worth having. It takes quite a bit of time observing a young dog with stock to see whether they have what it takes. The very best trainers can see a lot in a hurry, of course. My point is that, by itself, taking an interest in livestock and/or chasing stock all over the place proves very little. And this last bit seems to be the gist of those things called "instinct tests". I know this may piss people off, and I know I am making a vast generalization, but that's how I feel. Not that I am any great expert, but I have had the good fortune of getting help from a number of very good handlers, trainers and stockpeople. None of these ever seems to advertise an "instinct test". Somehow the whole concept of the "instinct test" has the ring of yet another ribbon or title you can put on your dog. It's just not that simple. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Hi, Charlie!! Then what else would you call it--a pup's first exposure to stock to see how it acts/reacts? I mean, we've got to call it something, no? And while that first time on stock (by itself) is never any great indicator one way or another, at least for sure, it certainly can tell us something, I think. Or, at least, that's been my experience. Personally, I've never really had an issue with the term--it's just the one that's been used since I've been messing with these dogs. See ya soon! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Tammy, I'm glad you're exploring this with Hammie. Whatever they call it, "instinct test" or introduction to stock, I think it's worth taking your dog and seeing what transpires. He's young, so he may or may not show much right now. If he doesn't "turn on", you can always try later as he matures. Julie makes a good point, in that, if you decide to pursue it beyond the first time, make sure you've got a good trainer. When's your appointment? I'd love to hear how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Thanks to you all. I am basically wanting to do what Anna and PSmitty said, just expose him to the sheep and see what happens. I'm glad to know that he may be too young at this point. I am not expecting a whole lot, but if he shows some interest I would love to learn with him even if we only ever do it for fun. So, that brings me to another question... How do you know if someone is a good trainer? This place is fairly close to where I live and they seem like good people. This is the link to their outfit if anyone is interested in looking and giving their opinon. The web site isn't much but it should give you a good idea of what they are about. http://www.realitycaninecenter.com/ I have exchanged emails with them and they sound like they know what they are doing, and they sell their working dogs for 1700.00 ! (crap!) and they also just sold one to someone in Wales. thanks again, Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Oh, yeah, you asked what to expect. I think others will be more qualified to answer, but here's how it went with my dogs: the trainer brought the dog into a round pen with several dog-broke sheep. We walked around the perimeter with dog on leash a couple of times, so the trainer could gauge their reaction to the sheep. Then we dropped the leash and backed off. The trainer did all the "work" and we just stood there and grinned. (this is the part I'm not qualified to answer, but...) The trainer will be looking for things like, is the dog circling the stock? If he's circling, they'll try to get him to circle in both directions. They'll want to see how the dog is watching the sheep, and reacting to them. It really just depends on what your dog does. The most important thing at a first introduction is that the entire experience is positive for the dog. This is key! ETA: I know that the more knowledgeable working folks will say that I've simplified it, or dumbed it down. I realize that there is so much more that goes into whether or not a dog will be a good worker, but I think for Tammy's purposes, this is the kind of info she was looking for, at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 The trainer did all the "work" and we just stood there and grinned. Thanks Paula. That made me laugh. I know I can do that. I really can't wait to see what he does now. It will be fun and interesting if nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Frankly, any time I see someone going in for an "instinct test", I want to say "Run away!!" It's not that one doesn't evaluate a dog's instincts and talents when first exposing them to stock, it's that people who use the term "instinct test" tend to be selling a neatly packaged product which is not terribly worth having. It takes quite a bit of time observing a young dog with stock to see whether they have what it takes. Thanks Charlie. So if you don't have sheep yourself and you don't really know much about the herding world, how do you find someone who will help you with exposing your dog to sheep? I actually looked for someone who did instinct testing because I didn't know what else to look for. thanks, Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 As for that facility, Tammy, I checked Littlehats (linked from the main page), and they are listed as a recommended place to find a trainer. The website doesn't give much info on their experience and training philosophy, but you can't go wrong with a Littlehats recommendation, I don't think. And I like all those saddle back sable border collies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 As for that facility, Tammy, I checked Littlehats (linked from the main page), and they are listed as a recommended place to find a trainer. The website doesn't give much info on their experience and training philosophy, but you can't go wrong with a Littlehats recommendation, I don't think. And I like all those saddle back sable border collies! Thank you. I didn't know there was a place to check them out on here. That they are recommended makes me happy because they are pretty darn close to where I live I also like those saddle back sable border collies. But then again, I like just about any Border Collie, or any dog for that matter. thanks again, Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hi Tammy I know Bridget F. the owner of RealityCanineCenter. I have never taken a lesson with her personaly but know several people who have. If I lived in her area I would certainly go see what she has to offer. She is a good handler and from what I've seen a good teacher. If your close to Reality C. C. then your probably close to (as in dog driving close....a coulpe hours) Jack and Kathy Knox. They offer spring and fall clinics in their area and they're my favorite clinics. IMO I think 7 months is a bit young for training but checking to see if your dogs intrerested in sheep is a good thing. Also getting a feel for the trainers before your ready for lessons is good. Good luck Kristen PS if you like her saddle back dogs looks, you should see them on the trial field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted August 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hi TammyI know Bridget F. the owner of RealityCanineCenter. I have never taken a lesson with her personaly but know several people who have. If I lived in her area I would certainly go see what she has to offer. She is a good handler and from what I've seen a good teacher. If your close to Reality C. C. then your probably close to (as in dog driving close....a coulpe hours) Jack and Kathy Knox. They offer spring and fall clinics in their area and they're my favorite clinics. IMO I think 7 months is a bit young for training but checking to see if your dogs intrerested in sheep is a good thing. Also getting a feel for the trainers before your ready for lessons is good. Good luck Kristen PS if you like her saddle back dogs looks, you should see them on the trial field. Thanks Kristen, I am looking forward to meeting her. She has emailed me a couple of times and seems very nice and see has a great sense of humor. It's good to hear from someone who knows her and gives a good recommendation. I will let you all know how it goes. I am going to try to get a hold of the knoxs, they live about 45 minutes from me, as does Bridget, only in the opposite direction. If nothing else, I would love to take their clinics. thanks, Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 seems very nice and see has a great sense of humor So does her husband Sug. You will enjoy your visit I'm sure. I'm jealous of the area you live in. There are good dog people all over that area. A nice stock dog association too. It's the ShowMeStockdogLeague. There are several trials coming up in Oct. right in that area. If you get a chance look them up on the USBCHA site or ask Bridget about them so you might get to know some of the people in your area. Keep us posted as to how your pup turns on. Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 How did you know that your dog had what it takes to work sheep? Did you just take them out and see if they were interested and had any natural ability? What happened that made you know they did? What about instinct testing? I have heard various opinons about it but would like to hear all of yours. I have an appt. for my 7 month old puppy, Hammie, to be instinct tested and was wondering what to expect, and if it is really something that is a good indicator. The place where I am going to have him tested raises and trains working sheepdogs and they have a massive herd of sheep. They raise sheep to sell and also to eat. They sell the meat. I didn't have any interest in doing this at first, but the more I read and watch, the more I think I want to. thanks ahead for all of your replies. Tammy The "J" tail drop. Saw it in pups. Took them away. But KNEW........ Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 You can't do any better than Jack and Kathy Knox. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 This is a related question to the one originally posted. I have heard people sometimes claim that an educated observer can see a lot about a dog's future working style and abilities watching its first exposure to sheep, before it has any training on it at all, and that this first scene is a special, not-to-be-repeated opportunity to watch a dog and evaluate its potential. And dear friend of mine, now dead, when confronted w/ that idea claimed that, in that case "most of my dogs just have an instinct to chase sheep over the north half of Texas," which is funny, but it seems like more might be said. I personally have always found that when under stress dogs (and humans!) tend to revert back to natural, untrained behaviors: this would tend to support the theory. Do those of you who have started many dogs feel like you can evaluate the kind of dog you will have right at the beginning, or are the changes so pronounced or unpredictable that you can't judge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 How did you know that your dog had what it takes to work sheep? Did you just take them out and see if they were interested and had any natural ability? What happened that made you know they did? What about instinct testing?Tammy "Work sheep" is not all or nothing; it's varying degrees. Playing the piano is not all or nothing, there are varying degrees of ability/talent and levels of learned skill. The first thing you'd like to see in a pup is the desire to get to the livestock; without it there's not much one can do to train. Training is a balance between negative corrections (not allowing them to get to the stock) for being wrong and allowing them to get to the stock when they are right; without the desire to get to the stock there is no reward. Not all pups show this during their first exposure to stock. Some have lots of drive to get to the stock but not enough of the other parts of the herding instincts to make useful working dogs; this you may not know until after months of training. Sometimes, a pup will show you things that are in them during their first exposures: natural outrun, confidence in the face of stock, etc. These happen because they have no training to rely upon and they are running on pure instinct. The lack of seeing these do not mean the pup cannot be taught these skills or these cannot be brought out with training. I suspect "instinct testing" is often just testing for the desire to get to the stock; prey drive could also evoke this reaction in a pup. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Caroline, I don't think a first exposure can tell you much beyond whether there's interest there, as Mark said. I wouldn't even want to try to evaluate the potential of a dog on the first and only exposure. I've seen enough variation in youngsters (my own and those of others) to know that making a snap decision based on a one-time view could have resulted in passing over some really nice dogs. Youngsters literally can change from one time to the next on stock, or even within one session, so I think it would be risky to decide after one viewing. For example, I have three youngsters now, two of which are littermates, and I would have thought that the male littermate would be slow to mature and hardheaded and the female would be a little star from the start, and that's what it looked like in the beginning (once we got past the alligator bowling ball stuff--if I had gone on the absolute first exposure I would have said both dogs were quite keen, but getting to the sheep meant running straight at them and splitting them repeatedly all the while pulling wool at every opportunity--the male was much worse about the wool pulling), but it turns out that the male is already doing good outruns of 100+ yards and driving a bit, whereas the female is still wanting to grab when she can and just being a hardheaded little cuss. She may end up the better dog, but I wouldn't want to have to pick one over the other right now, even after multiple exposures to stock. I agree with Mark that most instinct testing, which is supposed to be looking for sustained interest, could just as easily be picking up sustained prey drive. Caveat: I haven't started many dogs, just four or so. But so far, I wouldn't have wanted to make claims about any of them based on their first exposture to sheep. For example, one of my current open dogs and my go-to farm dog was *scared* of the sheep the first time she met them in the round pen at somewhere between 3 and 4 months old--didn't want anything to do with them. The second time a few days later, an unplanned exposure, she took off after the sheep when I had let them out of the round pen and they took off for the barn. So she was pretty much chasing. But she's actually a naturally wide outrunner, very sensible, square flanks, silent-gather sort of dog--pretty much the perfect dog for a beginner to bring up to open, which we moved to before she turned 3, but I could have missed out on all that if I had judged her based on those first two exposures. I can say that her pups were nothing like her when it came to their first experiences on sheep! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Julie, Mark, and anyone else- For the us newbies, can you talk about spotting the difference between sustained interest versus sustained prey drive? What sort of behaviors point you to think one over the other? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 I personally have always found that when under stress dogs (and humans!) tend to revert back to natural, untrained behaviors: this would tend to support the theory. Do those of you who have started many dogs feel like you can evaluate the kind of dog you will have right at the beginning, or are the changes so pronounced or unpredictable that you can't judge? Hi Caroline - I've been fortunate enough to start a lot of dogs now, 25 or more anyway. I think the answer to your question is the good old stand-by "it depends". I think it depends a bit on the age of the dog and the personality of the dog and how it was raised and what "other" training it's had. Mostly though, I can get a pretty good idea what type of dog I have in front of me, and how much natural talent and what natural strengths and weaknesses are there around the 3rd or 4th exposure to sheep. And i *totally* agree about reverting back to natural behaviors under stress. That's one you don't really see until you've trained a dog to a fairly high level sometimes too. But in the right situation, a dog can really pull up something from inside him or herself, and amaze you. Or he/she can try to do something and it's just lacking in the dog (power for example) and you'll get let down. No reason to get mad at the dog then, it just didn't come with the right tool in the toolbox - you can't drive a nail if all you have is a screwdriver in your pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Julie, Mark, and anyone else- For the us newbies, can you talk about spotting the difference between sustained interest versus sustained prey drive? What sort of behaviors point you to think one over the other? Thanks! I only have as much experience starting dogs as Julie, but in my mind the answer to your question is as difficult to put into words as the answer to this question. When two dogs are growling at one another, how do you tell whether it's play or aggression? (answer: reading the body language) Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 For the us newbies, can you talk about spotting the difference between sustained interest versus sustained prey drive? What sort of behaviors point you to think one over the other? I'm not sure sustained interest is really the correct term, though i know it's used a lot. I want to see a dog trying to control the stock, not trying to catch it and eat it. That said, sometimes it can be *really* hard to distinguish on first glance. I had a young dog recently come out, and if i didn't know it's breeding, i might have said it really was only chasing, with no real inclination to "control" anything. After 4 long sessions of trying to figure out how to get to this dog's proper instinct without someone (me or sheep!) getting smeared, it finally came out and a good talented little dog presented herself. Had i not known the line, i might have given up and just called it total prey drive. It was hard work getting there! (edited to add) I really can't think of a BC off the top of my head that i've discounted as only having prey drive, BTW. There have been a couple that just didn't want to work at all, no matter what, but they didn't even want to chase. I have seen a few from other breeds, and a couple that were BC mixes, that i did think just wanted to catch and eat the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 The first exposure for one of the dogs from our litter was scary. All he did was run as fast as he could to get around me and get to the sheep. A few times he split one off and attempted to catch it against the fence. He was whining (like when a pup is chasing and cannot catch what it's chasing) the entire time he was running. After a month off he had a significantly different attitude towards me and the sheep and started developing into a nice young working dog. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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