Couple of BC behaviorial questions

[Zabbitz]

Howdi Everyone,

Firstly, I'd like to introduce myself. Thirty something, home owner, and proud owner of little miss Molli.

That picture was taken at about 6 weeks old, she's now 10 weeks.

 

I got a border collie after about a year of getting to know the mother, and also learning about the BC breed. Molli is a great fit with me, as I'm a hi-energy person myself, and I have a great love of dogs in general (especially intelligent ones). Right now, Molli is quite enjoying our 2 hikes a day on a local trail (known as the bruce-trail for any that might be Ontario residents) and I'm hoping to eventually get her comfortable running along side of me while mountain-biking....but we'll cross that bridge sometime in the future. Something else you should probably know about me is that I'm a psychology buff and have had a little introduction to NILIF and fully intend to do more research on it, and implement it to its full extent (starting this evening), as I've seen a couple of behavioral issues in recent days with Molli that I would assume are from lack of consistency on my part, which is what I'd like to inquire about.

 

Ok, firstly biting / nipping. In the past 5-6 days, she's been escalating the biting, and it came to a point last night where I know I needed to look for help. We had a busy day, hiking and a 45 min car-ride to visit my parents for dinner where she got lots of attention and playtime as 'the new puppy'. When we got home, it was again playtime, so I played fetch with her a bit on the couch (~30 min) and when I thought the little one was beginning to tire, she paw'd the couch to come up (for what I thought were snuggles) and it turns out, there was still some left over biting/chewing to be done. She layed down beside me and proceeded to softly bite at my hand, arm and shirt. I tried to ignore this as much as I could, while giving a soft yet firm "NO's" where I thought appropriate. Eventually she got met with a pretty strong bite to the chest. I responded by biting her ear until I heard a little yelp, and then gave her a very strong "NOOoooo Bitingggg!". After escalating the nipping little by little, she started essentially whipping her head around, and caught me in the cheek with a bite, which I promptly responded to by biting her neck skruff quite firmly, and giving a firm shake. I then picked her up, held her with 1 hand under front paws, and another under tail/bum, faced her toward me and gave her another firm "NO" and was met with exposed teeth. At this point, I had to put her down, and shoo her away because of how angry I was. Am I portraying myself as an equal to her? and is this confusing/stressing her? is this why she keeps escalating the biting/nipping and testing me more and more?

 

The second question I have relates to leashing / walking. I live on a somewhat busy street between a highschool and an elementary school, and as such, I tend to put her on a leash for the start of our walks. At first, she is VERY reluctant to walk forward down the street away from our house. She turns and faces back, trys to stall with every object/leaf/twig imaginable, and when I force her forward, she obviously has a problem with that, and essentially lays down. I can get her to move forward if I crouch down and whistle her to me from the leash length, but as soon as she gets to me, I stand up and try and continue walking which has mixed effects. Now. Our walking looks like this. We walk the length of one block, and then turn right (where there is no sidewalk, yet properties are set way back) and proceed slightly down that street (which leads to our forest paths)where I let her off the leash, and rely on holding her attention using whistles, running and voice tones to keep her close to me. She responds very well to this, and seems to VERY much hate the leash altogether. I as well hate the leash...but again, am I confusing her, is this the rebellious/reluctant behaviour I'm seeing in the initial (leashed) block? Am I confusing her by taking the leash off her for the hike (at this age/stage)? (also another note, hiking seems like work to her, as she never goes more then 4' from me, and has yet to pee/poo while on a hike, which max at about 45 min).

 

Thanks in advance to any guidance that you can provide,

Zab

[bc4pack]

My 2 bits about the puppy nips... pups explore the world thru their mouths and they do outgrow it. Kinda sounds

that you were interacting enough that the pup thought 'play'. You can do a high-pitched 'Ouch! That hurts!' yelp and walk away! Ever watch pups play? They can get rough but if one gets hurt, the game STOPS!

I don't think it has got anything to do with 'dominance'... but it seems the pup has learned it's ok to get rough because the game escalates... Make sense?

 

BTW make sure there are plenty of APPROPRIATE things to chew on... teething makes for sore gums hence

the urge to chew.

 

My next question is how far are you going with this pup? Pups tire easily... 45 mins could be an awful long time

out and about.

Have you used any treats to help entice her along? Could be she's scared of something right in that area?

 

As far as not leaving your side.... normal at this age and even into adulthood for many BCs and IT IS A GOOD THING. Remember we are talking a BABY here... use the time to make coming to you FUN and happy

I don't think you are 'confusing' her... you may be expecting just a little much perhaps...

[Zabbitz]

Hey BC,

Thanks for the response.

 

Yes, it does make sense. I'll try ending the game when someone (aka I) get hurt, and see how it goes. Ironically though, I did take her back to her farm for a little visit, and when she was playing with the dominant pup of the litter (that the family is keeping) the game did escalate, and even with whelps and whines, it never did stop....but I do know what you mean, and I will try that. Thanks.

 

How many is plenty? I've got about 8 different chew toys for her, and I also soften up puppy-size rawhides for her with warm tap water. Is that enough?? As well on that note. How long should play-time be, and how many of them should there be in the course of a day?

 

I couldn't agree with you more about hike length, but honestly, it does seem like I can't tire Molli out. I do stop if there's any indication of her getting tired, or I will pick her up and carry her....but honestly...she has crazy amounts of energy. And I agree, more treat enticement during walks is needed.

 

As well, I do agree that its not only a good thing....its an Awesome thing that BC's stay so close when walking. I'm curious on how much I should depend on this though. Eg...I've walked her up and down this street a couple times without the leash on at all, and she is amazing, but people again are telling me I'm crazy/stupid to trust her...and I'm wondering how much of that to believe. Am I being irresponsible or training her incorrectly by 'Not' leashing her - I guess is really what I'm asking???

[SoloRiver]

Do not take a puppy on long hikes unless you're really into having a dog with joint problems later. She's just a baby and her joints aren't done developing. Lots of short training sessions are better than too much exercise.

 

I would never recommend biting back -- not only is that just plain weird, it's easily misconstrued by a pup as play. Unless you want to keep biting your dog for the rest of her life, I'd change to some more appropriate human/dog interaction.

 

Get this book: Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. LOTS and lots of good ideas in there, including how to train recalls, how to engage a dog's mind as well as her body, and how to train a puppy to have a soft mouth.

[Zabbitz]

Thanks Solo,

will do.

[Maralynn]

As well, I do agree that its not only a good thing....its an Awesome thing that BC's stay so close when walking. I'm curious on how much I should depend on this though. Eg...I've walked her up and down this street a couple times without the leash on at all, and she is amazing, but people again are telling me I'm crazy/stupid to trust her...and I'm wondering how much of that to believe. Am I being irresponsible or training her incorrectly by 'Not' leashing her - I guess is really what I'm asking???

 

That is asking a bit much of a pup. Sure, she may stay with you 95% of the time, but what about the 5% that she doesn't?

Or what happens if she gets spooked by something? I know you'd feel awful if she bolted for some reason and you could have prevented an accident by holding her leash instead of letting it drag. She is a baby, and you should take the same precautions with her as you would with any baby. And then keep in mind that the "teenage" period is coming up - your wonderfully focused and obedient pup may start testing the limits and "forget" to listen to/watch you.

 

If you want to give her a bit more freedom, just get a longer leash. That way she can wander a bit, but you are still 100% in control. But also keep walk time fun and interesting - take some of her kibble along and treat her every so often. She'll get used to the leash in time.

 

Molli looks like a sweetheart, and I hope you two have many, many happy years together!

[bettilu]

Hi!

 

Your pup is adorable....anyway, here is my 2 cents about the leashing... you should definately get the puppy used to a leash and walk with a leash at all times unless you are in a fenced in area....I used to take Bo out without a leash when he was young like that, because he would ALWAYS stay with me and my other dogs....then one day....he spotted the cars driving by on our busy road, and next thing I knew, he was a car herder.....and although I am STILL training him that is not the thing to do, I can't trust him off leash in the front yard....and he is 13 months.

 

Anyway, my point being is you never know WHEN they will bolt, but know that eventually, they will (doesn't have to be cars, could be kids, squirrels, butterflies, etc....)

 

Good luck and happy training.

[PSmitty]

I second the Culture Clash recommendation.

[shatchp]

It looks like this has all been said, but I'll toss in my two cents.

 

I'm not speaking from a lot of experience...but, as you know, puppies use their mouths a lot, especially when teething. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in biting back, but would instead make some alarm noise like "Ow!" and turn your back. If it persists, a time out...no interaction with you for a few minutes ( in the crate...) ...then redirect to something that's appropriate to bite on, like a toy or rope. Show her how to play bite appropriately. Mouth on toy=happy sounds from you, and continued playing and tugging. Mouth on human=alarm noise and the play/attention stops. (she'll figure out it's not as much fun when she lets her teeth touch you.) Reinforce the positive behavior, set her up to succeed.

 

I'm only on my first puppy now...7 months old...so no expert here...but it sounds like what you're doing isn't working, and you're getting frustrated. I can certainly empathize. However, I've found that if I'm not getting what I want from my dog, it's my fault...and I'm still trying to undo little mistakes I made early on with Ollie. So, maybe try a different approach...and expect the puppy to act like a puppy for quite a while. You're right that it's not OK for her to have her teeth on you. However, especially if you're getting frustrated, I'd stay away from biting back or other forms of punishment. I've found a few books really helpful in firming up how to think about my dog's behaviors and my own responses and expectations. The Other End of the Leash, by Patricia McConnell, and Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor are good.

 

As for walking....Ollie wouldn't leave our porch for a week and a half, and it took longer to get up the street. It's a big scary world out there, and the sounds of the city were a bit much for him. I just kept it positive, and the more he realized the glorious array of sights and scents out there, the more he began to explore. Now, getting him to walk with me on leash isn't the problem...it's stopping the pulling! The teacher of our obedience class has extremely well-trained dogs....and she says she'll never be cocky enough about her own training prowess to take her dogs off leash in the city. It's just not worth the risk...and you have a breed that's know to herd cars. Any dog can learn to walk well on leash...it's the teaching them part that can be difficult.

 

As for exercise, you won't likely know where "too much" is from watching your dog...you'll need to set the limits. Our 7 month old gets 30 minutes of good, run till most dogs drop exercise every day (ball chasing)...and two walks around town. Obedience training is not rough on joints at all, and is just as exhausting as physical exercise...so there's a session or two of this thrown in each day as well. He won't be running or doing long hikes with me until he's at least 1 yr old, maybe 18 months. I'd like him to have a long, comfortable active life. Hiking on trails with hills can be especially hard on growing joints...think about how it feels to run down a hill, lots of pressure on your grown up knees and hips. Even harder on a puppy. Don't forget this is a baby...and in your case, a very cute baby. Good luck...pardon the long-windedness.

[TaliC2007]

Hi and welcome,

I won't add to what the others have already posted. They know far more than I do anyway, but I did want to make a comment on this.

I also soften up puppy-size rawhides for her with warm tap water.

 

I have a 7 month old puppy and I was giving him smaller rawhides that he would chew on until they were soft. One day he got one very soft and I don't know if he tried to swallow it on purpose or what happened, but it slid down his throat and he was choking on it. I had to put my fingers down his throat and pull it out. Now I never leave him alone with any kind of rawhide for fear that he will choke on it. It may have been a fluke, but I wanted to let you know that it can happen. Also, the puppy kong is great for a teething puppy. You can buy it at petsmart, or petco, etc...

You can put treats, or peanut butter, or cream cheese, or whatever in it, and it gives the pup something great to chew on, plus it gives them something to figure out for a little mental stimulation. They are supposed to be indestructable and so far ours has held up. If you go to dog.com and do a search on Kong, you will find all kinds of things that are good for you puppy to play with and chew on that are not harmful.

 

Tammy

 

Edited to add: I forgot to say that I have also heard rawhides can be very hard on a pups stomach. I basically stopped with the rawhides. Nyla bones are a good alternative as well. Hopefully someone else can comment on the good/bad of using rawhides. I may just be a little paranoid because of the choking scare and they may be fine.

 

eta: Real meat bones work really well for us too. You can buy them at the grocery store. If they don't have any out just ask the butcher to cut up some for you. They only cost about 50 cents a piece and they last my puppy a long time and he loves them. I am not sure if you puppy is too young but I am guessing not and she will love them.

[Ruger's Dad]

You got a lot of good advice so far. The two best pieces of advice, quit biting your dog and teach her no. Second, keep Molli on her leash. The leash is the best training tool you have. It will keep her from chasing kids, bikes, cars, etc. It will teach her who is in charge. By the way, Ruger took at least three weeks until he became comfortable walking in the outside world.

 

You really need to attend an obedience class of some sort. You can try Pet Smart if there is one near you or even a class sponsored by the AKC.

 

I have had two bird dogs and now my Border Collie that I have trained. Raising two children helped as well. I think the Borders are a lot harder mouthed dog just by their very nature. The bird dogs are a blast to horse around with. Ruger is just flat painful even at 2.5 years old. Molli may not get gentle in the biting for a long time. I would not encourage her biting at all. Channel the energy into something else such as fetching.

 

10 weeks is really young. You need to watch it. Keep the play simple and the training sessions short. Patience is a virtue.

[Zabbitz]

Aye, good point Ruger. Patience is a virtue.

 

Firstly, thanks everyone for all the great responces.

 

I made some changes to my behavior last night to incorporate a bit more NILIF into our (Molli and I's) relationship. I also left out the walk in place of a couple of shorter sessions of fetch and tug, and some good old fashioned backyard stick chewing and digging. Also, I incorporated treats into her learning of multiple things last night, and decided to crate her for a couple of short times while I was home (crating is new to me, and so I buried the guilt, and closed my ears to the Pleas!) and all of this had a full and complete 100% positive turn around effect on her behavior. She was more relaxed, she was more attentive, and she was completely co-operative.

 

~~~Disclaimer~~~~

{please forgive the proud daddy moment..~!!!}

 

Last night she learned fetch to a 100% effectiveness (15 consecutive fetches brought right to my open hand AND Dropping them!!!) and is now sitting and making focused eye contact before supper/going outside/and the fetch throw. (Pretty amazing for a 10 week old IMO) Her confidence in me seems to be somewhat restored, my confidence in me is restored, and our ability to relate on a much more 'appropriate' level seems to be the successful way of doing things overall.

 

Something I probably should have put into my original post, is that I'm not new to puppies, nor training them. Molli is the 4th that I've had a hand in raising/training (bovier, husky-lab, retriever), all of which had unique trainging needs, and all of which responded very uniquely. It has been a few years though, so...... As well, the Border-collie breed in particular and its hi-intelligence/hi-energy needs, and the effects of these things on the happiness of the pooch is really where the issue lies, and all of your responses have helped me very much in that regard. Thank you.

 

Oh...I guess I really should share the happiness. This was the sight at 7pmish last night.

 

cheers folks,

Zab

[Guest LJS1993]

I know it has been said already but, man, the biting back thing is strange in my mind. Also, pups, like kids, have developing joints and do not need to be taking long hikes. As for tiring a pup out, okay here is my advice. Give the pup exercise, mental stimulation, but don't expect that little pup to have the perfect off switch. Tucker, my twelve (approx) week old is a great little pup. He knows how to sit, and has a decent stay. However, he nips, chews, and still needs to learn what is appropriate and what is not. Tell him "no", walk away, be firm, but keep things and your expectations into perspective.

[vickim]

I've heard about the biting a dog on the ear to get him to accept you as his superior--it was in a really bad (bad as in poorly adpated to screenplay, poorly acted--astonishing since I read the novel and it was good. It also bore absolutely resemblance to the movie other than the fact that there were sled dogs involved) movie about dogs, where the actor did bite the dog on the ear--and in the movie, it worked. I've also seen where it was done to horses. I don't know if it really works; I wouldn't do it myself.

 

Molli looks like a cutie!

[Guest LJS1993]

I've heard about the biting a dog on the ear to get him to accept you as his superior--it was in a really bad (bad as in poorly adpated to screenplay, poorly acted--astonishing since I read the novel and it was good. It also bore absolutely resemblance to the movie other than the fact that there were sled dogs involved) movie about dogs, where the actor did bite the dog on the ear--and in the movie, it worked. I've also seen where it was done to horses. I don't know if it really works; I wouldn't do it myself.

 

Molli looks like a cutie!

 

 

Yes I saw a movie with Cuba Gooding Jr. which dealt with him biting a sled dog in the ear. It really made me laugh.

[Ruger's Dad]

Several years ago I picked up a DVD titled Water Dog at Wal-Mart. It is based on Jim Wolters training methods. He wrote a book called Gun Dog that is a great read. Anyway, it was a great tool for my non-water dog. He basically broke down the training by age and then went through various exercises for training a bird dog. I ended up employing a lot of the ideas to training Ruger. I know the sheep people on this board will think I am nuts but it is worth checking out.

 

One thing I will give Wolters a lot of credit for is making the working dog part of your family. Gun Dog was written in either the 50's or early 60's. He advocated that your bird dog should be living in the house with the family. All my grandpa's hunting dogs were kept outside. I know he had at least one inside dog when I was really young. I think it was a Pomeranian. Yuk. Today I think it is funny to have your most prized working dogs kept outside on a chain instead of making them a full time member of the family. I can see the exception on a dog that works sheep everyday and not wanting all the dirt in the house. However, how many times a year is a bird dog really used?

 

Just a couple thoughts.

[hoku's mum]

Hi and Welcome! Molli is a cutie! You have gotten lots of great advise, I will just chime in about the leash thing. The leash is your friend. I am similar to you in not liking a leash, and had lovely ideas about Hoku always being able to be off leash. Well, great till he hit about 5-6 months, and then all kinds of craziness broke out. The best thing recommended to me was to use a light weight long line (30-50 feet) for walking him 'off leash'. It gives you the ability to enforce your recall. You really don't want her to learn to blow off your recall. We did lots of hiking with that on our neighbors ranch, and he learned manners and recall even with cows in the field with us. But that is down the road for you at this point. Work on loose leash walking as she gets more comfortable going out. Take her to lots of place (once she is all set with her shots), busy streets, playgrounds, parks, shopping areas, walk her on all kinds of sidewalks (this is one I learned the hard way.... we live in a rural area, so I take Hoku up to town once in while... He flipped out on sidewalks with lots of grates and manhole covers....had to pick him up and carry him he was such a mess one day...) I have realized that leash walks are fine and fun, too, and really good for him to have good leash manners.

 

The other thing is to do short (1-3 minute) training sessions for basics: sit, down, stay, leave it, here, and simple tricks. Make it big fun, and quit before she is ready to quit (good advise for all play time...after all, all toys are yours, and you say when to play) Mind work is as tiring for them as exersize, so lots of tiny training through the day is great. Still helps soooo much at 2 years old! A great resource is the ClickerSolutions list. Here is a link to so of the articles.

 

Good luck, and keep the pics comming!