Novice question about Novice

[Rosanne]

Hey guys,

 

I've been working my boy on and off on stock for about 6 months now. It's been usually once a week, around my agility schedule, but he's made real, definitive progress every time I work him. I'm working with an experienced USBCHA trialer; she doesn't trial a lot now but has run several dogs in Open in her time and has a working farm with plenty of sheep and dogs of her own. I get on with her real well and haven't asked many questions here because, generally, I'm happy with my progress and she answers my questions.

 

I have an opportunity to let her keep my dog for a few days over the summer to really get his outruns down pat and settled. I ALSO have the possibility of working her sheep an additional time a week besides my weekly lesson, AND may get to farm-sit for her.

 

So. . . I was wondering about Novice/Novice.. . I am having trouble finding any real info about where it's offered online, and I understand it isn't a "real" class and as such isn't sanctioned, but it sounds like a good idea to start there and get some ring time when he's ready. Anybody have any resources to help finding where trials are that offer Novice? Would it be an easier idea to maybe start with some AHBA and then transfer to ProNovice when we're ready for that (probably not till next year since I'm still an agility person)?

 

How advanced was everybody when they entered their first trial, and what level did you start at? Did your dog actually listen at the trial or did they revert quite a bit?

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Rosanne,

You're in luck, because you're in an excellent place for finding trials that hold novice classes. I believe the best resource for you will be the NEBCA (Northeast Border Collie Association) website: NEBCA.

 

I haven't checked there lately, but I'm pretty sure they have a calendar of trials and such on the site. ETA: Just checked the site and it looks like the next trial coming up closest to you would be Green Lane in September, where they offer all novice classes, plus open. If you're willing to travel out of state, there are trials in NY (Leatherstocking) in August and VT (Mad River Valley) next weekend (which may be sooner than you'd like).

 

NEBCA is a very active group, with very friendly folks, so you should be able to find something you can do!

 

As for how good we were when we went to our first trial (N/N), well, let's just say that we definitely reverted. My dog stopped at the exhaust, and then once I got him away from there and on his way to the sheep, he decided to cut in and bust through them to get behind them. I don't remember the rest of the run, but it may actually have improved from there. I had been working dogs for just 3 or 4 months, but this particular dog wasn't one to chase and grab or anything, so even though we had a rough start we weren't endangering sheep or spectators when we stepped to the post. And I think the next day went much better.

 

I think as long as you can recognize when things are going badly enough that you should leave the post to go help your dog--and do so--you'll be okay. Expect that there will be some reversion, no matter how well schooled your dog is. It's a new place, with different sheep, and you will no doubt be nervous, which your dog will pick up on. If you have the chance to get your dog to different fields with different sheep before your first trial, so much the better. Mileage really does make a difference, and I try to drag my youngsters around and work them everywhere I can for just that reason (they are much less likely to become some unrecognizable freak at their first trial if they've already been dragged hither and yon most of their lives).

 

As for starting in AHBA or something similar, I suppose you could do that, but in my experience, the trial entries are usually much higher than they are for your average novice trial, so I think I'd try to go to as many novice trials as I could for that amount of money (probably two or three per one AHBA trial). At least at a novice trial you'll be competing with people at your level and you'll have a chance to watch and maybe ask advice from any open handlers there as well.

 

IMO, there is no perfect time to go to your first trial. If you're doing well at home and your dog has a recall (should things go badly), then you're probably okay to try. In fact, if you're confident that you could be running in P/N in, say, six or eight months, then your dog is probably capable of doing N/N at a trial.

 

J.

[Rosanne]

Thanks Julie,

 

I'm not so confident we'd be up to P/N in 6 or 8 months More like a whole year, maybe. . . Or more. . .I do plan to spend more time with sheep and less with agility next winter/spring. This year I had some aspirations for the USDAA's world team, but he showed me that perhaps that requires a *bit* more consistency then he's ready to give me, so I'm more relaxed about it now. I'll not push him to do what he won't do. (Actually HE's been pushing ME! this year)

 

You know, I know about NEBCA but I always, for whatever dumb reason, have trouble remembering their website.

 

Green Lane is 20 minutes away! I knew about that trial but I thought it was the following weekend, the 15thish weekend, which is a USDAA Regional so I could not attend, but I don't think I have anything that weekend, so there's a good reason to get polishing. We haven't really worked on much driving yet, and we do have a few oddities from all the agility training (NOT that he looks at me too much, though, no not that at all!), but overall I'm very encouraged at the way he progresses. I also find that my background in horses and animals in general means I tend to do well with the sheep (no expert, but no quivering city girl either!).

 

My years of experience with agility tells me that Yes, of course my dog will act like an idiot that first time out. Probably requiring me to embarrassedly march in to the ring and catch his eye and call him off. He is not a gripper, normally, but of course if gets too excited he's been known to pull a touch of wool here or there. And I do have the ability to practice in several places, which I'm sure will help!

We DO have a bit of a problem with him not stopping off balance and that will have to be fixed before I can enter him. We're both green still.

 

Thanks!

[Bo Peep]

Making sure I get this right- your dog hasn't run in any open trials and you haven't either, right?

Then you qualify for novice/novice neither the dog or you is a pro. I am the most nervous person in the world and I'm sure it transfers to the dog, but my dogs had a really good recall, except maybe 1/2 a mile away- LOL. I'm sure we've all crashed and burned a few times on the trial field. I'd try a novice/novice first. It's fun and see how it goes. Once you move you or your dog up, you can't move back. So be careful. If you have purchased a pro dog, you can still run a n/n course- with another dog-you being the novice and your dog being the novice, but if you move yourself up into the pro category then you must stay there and never run a n/n course again. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not really sure of this so I'd like to know the answers.

[juliepoudrier]

BoPeep,

You're correct. Novice-novice is for handlers and dogs who are both just starting out. In this area of the country (where Rosanne is), pro-novice means one part of the team is a "pro" and the other a novice, and either can be dog or human (and the class is one step above N/N). Around here you can run in novice-novice as a novice handler as long as you have a novice dog and have never run in open. Once you run in open, then you must start any new dog in pro-novice (since an open handler is by definition the "pro" part of any team). You're correct that the dog can't move back with the same handler, but should the handler get another dog (and the handler has never run in open), then s/he could start that dog in N/N as well. Different regional associations have different rules, but most around here will allow a novice handler (having never run in open) to drop a purchased dog down two levels, whereas an open handler may be allowed to drop the dog one level. So a novice handler could buy an open dog and run it in P/N (east coast P/N), but an open handler would have to run that same dog in ranch, and would be expected to move it back to open pretty quickly. For example, when I was still running in novice, I was given a retired open dog to learn from. I ran her in P/N for maybe three trials, just till we could get our act together (i.e., I learned to whistle), and then moved her up to ranch (open course, no shed in this part of the country). After a serious injury put things on hold for nearly a year (and we ran ranch in maybe 3-4 trials), I moved her right up to open, as my goal with getting her was to learn to run open. Where Rosanne is, NEBCA club rules allow for an assisted drive in N/N. This means you can either wear the sheep through the course, or, if your dog is starting to drive, walk with the dog and drive the sheep through the course. That's a very nice way to prepare the handler and dog to transition from the wear in N/N to the drive in P/N.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

I just did my first novice/novice trial a month ago--we've been working for a little more than a year (and my learning curve is STEEP--I have exactly zero natural instinct about sheep, but I'm slowly learning). Hamish ran into the exhaust pen on the first run--but that was partly (or mostly) my fault. He did o.k. the second run--we at least got a score. I was often too slow with my commands and several times gave him the wrong flank, so I would say it was mostly me being an idiot rather than him.

 

I was pretty much on the trigger ready to leave the post if necessary, but he was reasonably controlled on the fetch and the exhaust thing happened after I'd stupidly retired, so i was already walking away.

 

Watching the Pro/Novice runs, I'm certain I'm not ready for that (maybe by next summer, but I rather doubt it). The Pro/Novice trials usually include a drive, I think, so you would want to be sure you and Drifter can do that.

 

Usually if you look at the entry form for a trial, it'll tell you if there are Novice/Novice classes. And the Novice/Novice classes are often pretty small (not so the Pro/Novice). The trial we ran in only had 8 Novice/Novice dogs. Novice/Novice usually runs first thing in the morning or last in the afternoon (depending on the weather, I think--so the Open dogs and sheep don't have to run in the hottest part of the afternoon)

 

Many of the trials in Michigan have Novice classes, so you might watch for some of them. The folks have been very nice and quite helpful all along. Some of the people who do training around here also occassionally offer novice clinics that they announce on Sheepdog-L.

 

Be careful, you might soon find yourself shifting your alliances away from agility....

[Marilyn T]

Many years ago, when I first started (grasshopper!!!) Jack Knox offered a great yardstick to measure yourself by. He said to NOT enter a trial until you can complete the work one class above the one you will enter. It is superb advice, but basically nobody follows it. If they did, there would be way less wrecks at trials, and more people would offer novice series in order to give locals a way to grow.

 

His reasoning was (I think) that in order to get the training on your dog for pro-novice, you will have a stop, and some reasonable flanking commands. Usually, you will have a pretty reliable outrun by that point too. At your first trial, you will most likely turn into a blithering idiot, and transmit your fears to your dog. When that happens, the dog will likely decide you don't know anything, and stop listening. It happens to all of us. However, if you can do the job of the higher class, the novice class will seem like a piece of cake, and all will more likely go well.

 

Also, Novice is really boring to run in. I never thought driving 6 hours for a 3 minute run was worth while. Much more fun to drive a course in pro-novice. Whatever you choose, good luck. However, there is less to lose by overtraining for the class than by jumping in unprepared.

 

Go watch some trials, Get a feel for what the dogs will be required to do. Volunteer for pen duty to learn more about the sheep.

My 2 cents

[Bo Peep]

BoPeep,

You're correct. Novice-novice is for handlers and dogs who are both just starting out. In this area of the country (where Rosanne is), pro-novice means one part of the team is a "pro" and the other a novice, and either can be dog or human (and the class is one step above N/N). Around here you can run in novice-novice as a novice handler as long as you have a novice dog and have never run in open. Once you run in open, then you must start any new dog in pro-novice (since an open handler is by definition the "pro" part of any team). You're correct that the dog can't move back with the same handler, but should the handler get another dog (and the handler has never run in open), then s/he could start that dog in N/N as well. Different regional associations have different rules, but most around here will allow a novice handler (having never run in open) to drop a purchased dog down two levels, whereas an open handler may be allowed to drop the dog one level. So a novice handler could buy an open dog and run it in P/N (east coast P/N), but an open handler would have to run that same dog in ranch, and would be expected to move it back to open pretty quickly. For example, when I was still running in novice, I was given a retired open dog to learn from. I ran her in P/N for maybe three trials, just till we could get our act together (i.e., I learned to whistle), and then moved her up to ranch (open course, no shed in this part of the country). After a serious injury put things on hold for nearly a year (and we ran ranch in maybe 3-4 trials), I moved her right up to open, as my goal with getting her was to learn to run open. Where Rosanne is, NEBCA club rules allow for an assisted drive in N/N. This means you can either wear the sheep through the course, or, if your dog is starting to drive, walk with the dog and drive the sheep through the course. That's a very nice way to prepare the handler and dog to transition from the wear in N/N to the drive in P/N.

 

J.

Thank you Julie- It's been so long I've forgotten, or maybe they might have changed the rules. I'm glad you clarified that for me. I actually stayed in N/N for too long. I just enjoyed the trials and had no expectations of moving the dogs up. Just liked hanging out and learning from the other handlers. I just wasn't motivated to go on or had the experience, although I did have the the luck of "playing with some of the best" in Oregon and Idaho. I actually treasure those moments where Kathy Brunetto, Mike Ryan, Cliff Steelman, Don Helsley or Pat would just want to play with no fee applied. Now ,new dog, that all mine have since died off and I'm starting from scratch- it's a tough road. Tough dog- he's been off sheep for awhile, working on basic manners. He's about ready --------almost-----LOL. not a perfect "that'll do........"

Thanks again for the refresher course.

Dianne

[Rosanne]

Bo Peep: The closest I've come to an Open run is sitting outside the fence watching the dogs run by :-)

Thanks for your thoughts though, I do want to make sure I know what I'm doing before I get out there or move up. I think the rules said I could move back down from P/N to N/N as long as I don't accumulate points in P/N first. So if I get in too deep, I can change my mind for the next trial. Not that I think I'd do that, but the option is there!

No, I do not have any experienced trial dogs.

Robin: I do have some minimal livestock experience, and LOTS of dog trialing experience, so at least I've got a leg up on that stuff.

 

15 years of agility with multiple dogs has certainly taught me how to train to a higher level than I expect to trial at, and to deal with my own and my dogs' nerves. Doesn't mean we're always perfect, but at least it wont' surprise me.

 

 

Thanks a lot guys. I actually had thought maybe if we weren't ready for the full-blown drive yet I could do the assisted with him, since it is allowed in NEBCA Novice. Might help keep him a little more focused as well, to have me nearby. And if he seemed a little TOO silly I could step out in front and get him wearing. He's done LOTS of that all over fields and while he'll push a bit if he's excited he usually doesn't do anything stupid. He's very familiar with the job of Bring Mom the Sheep.

[Guest pax]

Well crap. I've been working in P/N with Starr because of what she's done, but I was working on the assumption I'd be able to back down work Nash in N/N.

 

Am I interpreting this right that once I've been in P/N I can't go back down? And let me just tell you all, Mark TELLS me this stuff but until I actually NEED an answer I am not always capable of storing what he's telling me.

 

 

I sent that poor dog on a badly planned escapade back to the set out pen the other day by inadvertantly indicating to her she should go back and get more sheep. We would have had quite a nice double lift, only, without double the sheep. And uhm, without the shepherd having done it purposefully. I am NO pro, by any stretch of the imagination and the only one who knows less than me at this point is SOME of my sheep.

 

 

The Pro Novice Team,

 

Starr (pro) and Celia (not as smart about sheep as the sheep)

[Rosanne]

I believe as long you haven't run in OPEN you can start Nash in Novice/Novice.

The other levels really don't count for squat, in the long run; they're just practice.

[Carson Crazies]

Well crap. I've been working in P/N with Starr because of what she's done, but I was working on the assumption I'd be able to back down work Nash in N/N.

 

Am I interpreting this right that once I've been in P/N I can't go back down? And let me just tell you all, Mark TELLS me this stuff but until I actually NEED an answer I am not always capable of storing what he's telling me.

 

Celia, at this point you should still be able to run Nash in N/N.

[Little Bo Boop]

Well crap. I've been working in P/N with Starr because of what she's done, but I was working on the assumption I'd be able to back down work Nash in N/N.

 

Thats the way it is here in Texas. If you move up to Ranch for instance (your pro/novice I guess) you can't go back to Novice, even if its with another dog. But you could just run exhibition in Novice if you just wanted to get your dog out there.

[laurie etc]

Hey Roseanne - If you're ready to "get your feet wet" you & Drifter should come down to VA on the weekend of July 28-29. We're doing 4 VBCA trials over 2 days (2 TRIALS EACH DAY) - all Nov/Nov through Ranch level and there are still openings at all levels. This will be a friendly trial. Sheep at Keepstone are appropriately Novice level (dog-broke), but can be challenging on Ranch and Open level courses. I'll post the premium in the Trial announcement section. Laurie

[juliepoudrier]

I believe as long you haven't run in OPEN you can start Nash in Novice/Novice.

The other levels really don't count for squat, in the long run; they're just practice.

Celia,

Rosanne is right. As long as YOU haven't run in open, you can start a NOVICE DOG in *any* of the novice classes, even if you have an open dog running in some other class. The idea of N/N is to have a class where novice handlers don't have to compete against open handlers or open dogs. You are currently running in P/N because Starr is an open dog, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a novice handler and will remain so until you have run in open. In the converse, I HAVE to start my young dogs in P/N because I do run in open. As long as you haven't run in open, you are allowed to start dogs in N/N.

 

ETA: This applies to trials in the VA/NC area. If you're trialing in NEBCA, the rules are a little different, as mentioned by someone else. For example, in NEBCA you can run a dog in both ranch and open until you place in open, at which time you are no longer allowed to run in ranch (with that dog). Apparently this rule applies to the lower classes as well, if I'm reading here correctly.

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

So for you in the NE what are the progression of classes? We have, Novice, Ranch, Open Ranch, Nursery and Open. I wouldn't swear to it, but I don't believe if you are a Novice and you buy an Open dog that you can run that dog in Novice, I think you would have to run it in Ranch (I think you can drop down 2 classes) Also do you have a point system? After you garner a certain amount of points in a particular class (with the same dog) you must move up? In addition, our dogs carry their points with them. For instance, my dog that I run in Ranch, ran in Open Ranch before I got her...so instead of getting 54 pts. before we have to move up, we only get 24 pts. then we have to move up to Open Ranch.

[Rosanne]

According to NEBCA's website (link above in post #2), It's Novice/Novice, then Pro-Novice, Ranch. Then I guess you either move to Nursery if the dog's young enough or to Open.

If you get 40 points at any one level you must then move up.

A new handler can drop ONE dog down 2 levels, but then they can only accumulate 20 points before moving up. So for instance Celia can run Starr at P/N, but if she got 20 points she'd have to move up to Ranch. She could NOT run her in Novice/Novice. She could also NOT get a 2nd Open dog and move that one down 2 levels - the next one she got could only move down to Ranch.

 

I got all this from their website. I don't think we have 2 different Ranch classes around here. Just Ranch. I guess you guys don't have Pro-Novice?

[juliepoudrier]

Little Bo Boop,

The rules vary by region, and since I generally trial under VA rules, that's where I can speak. The class progression on the east coast is N/N, P/N, ranch or open ranch (they are the same here--open course, no shed) and open. Nursery is the ranch course with nursery-age dogs.

 

In VA, a handler-dog team must move up to the next class at the start of the *next* season after a season in which they have won three times in whatever class they're in (wins over two seasons count toward the total of three). For example, if you're running in N/N and win just twice that year, you can stay in N/N the following year. The season runs from August 1 through July 31 (same as USBCHA). We also have a point system, but it is used solely to determine year-end placing and not to require competitors to move up. The disadvantage of the system in VA is that it was abused in the past by folks wanting to stay in a lower level one more year or folks staying with an open dog in P/N solely to win year-end awards. That was addressed by the BOD changing the rule to state that a team is eligible for year-end awards only for two consecutive years.

 

NEBCA uses a points system. In that case (and I am not a NEBCA member, so someone will have to correct me if I get this wrong), once you have accumulated a certain number of points, you move up to the next class, even if it's the second day of a two-day trial. The disadvantage of this system is that a team might not really be consistent at trials but happens to do well at a large trial and so accumulate enough points to be required to move up, ready or not. That said, I still think that stretching (moving up before quite ready) is better than allowing folks to stay too long in a lower class. But then I've never been forced to move up before I felt ready, so my opinion is colored by that.

 

As I stated previously, in VA a novice handler can move a dog down two levels. So a novice can purchase an open dog and run it in P/N, which makes sense because in that case the dog is the "pro" part of the pair. Remember that P/N is just a step above N/N here in the east, so you basically as a handler are going up to a slightly longer outrun and generally a one-legged drive instead of a wear (occasionally there will be a short cross drive).

 

For an open handler who purchases an open dog and moves it down one level to ranch, the handler must move the dog back up to open immediately after three wins (with one or two wins on the same weekend counted as one win)--they can't wait till the start of the next season.

 

I don't know what NEBCA's specific rules are regarding the above, but I believe their trial rules are on their website.

 

ETA: regarding nursery, some folks will run a young dog in P/N and nursery; others will run the dog in ranch and nursery; and still others will run the dog in open and nursery. In the year I ran Twist in nursery and qualified her for the finals, I also ran her in P/N. But since the nursery course is the same as the ranch course, I didn't see a need to then spend a season running in ranch, so I moved her right from P/N to open. A lot of handlers, if they are planning to run in the nursery finals, will move a nursery dog up to open (if the dog is mentally capable) by spring of the year they plan to run in nursery since generally the young dogs who are experienced in the open class are more likely to do well at the nursery finals. IOW, there's no set progression of where a nursery dog starts--and so you wouldn't necessarily have to run a youngster in, say, ranch *before* running in nursery. I have even seen people running dogs in N/N and nursery, which I think is wrong, because if a dog can drive a full course, IMO it doesn't belong in N/N (but handlers can get away with it, because technically the dog is not an open dog).

 

J.

[Rosanne]

Hey Roseanne - If you're ready to "get your feet wet" you & Drifter should come down to VA on the weekend of July 28-29. We're doing 4 VBCA trials over 2 days (2 TRIALS EACH DAY) - all Nov/Nov through Ranch level and there are still openings at all levels. This will be a friendly trial. Sheep at Keepstone are appropriately Novice level (dog-broke), but can be challenging on Ranch and Open level courses. I'll post the premium in the Trial announcement section. Laurie

 

 

Laurie I didn't even see your little reply stuck in there. I did see the post in the trial announcement page though. Unfortunately we took a lot of time off from sheep over May/June to train for USDAA Regionals (and you saw how well THAT went! LOL!), so he won't be ready in 2 short weeks. Well, I could show up but I wouldn't be happy with how well he did. . .

If you come up to Green Lane in September I'll probably be there for my debut. Probably. No guarantees!

[Little Bo Boop]

Wow, all very interesting, quite a difference in rules it seems like. Especially the 'season' thing. As far as I know, ours is strictly based on points, so you could, if you wanted to, sit in Novice for years...(why you would want to is beyond me) No, we don't have a Pro/Novice, at least none have been offered at any of the trials that I've been to. ETA, I may have seen it offered at one trial last January. Novice, is usually a short outrun, fetch, around the post and a pen, handler may not assist the dog. Ranch is a regular course with a drive and cross drive etc... Open Ranch is a longer outrun, bit longer cross drive...A lot of folks that run Nursery dogs run them in Open Ranch as well.

Well I can sure see how a Novice could get all turned around with all the different rules in place I'm getting dizzy just reading all this LOL.

[Rosanne]

Our Novice has a drive. . . but. . .you're allowed to go with the dog to help them out. I think that's a nice touch!

 

It is a bit confusing, but I would only be trialing NEBCA and in VA, so only those 2 rules sets would apply. Even though they are pretty different as far as moving up, I seriously doubt I'd trial so much I'd be forced up before my dog was ready. Or linger. I hate lingering. If I didn't progress I'd probably give it up, at least with that dog.

[Sue R]

Unfortunately we took a lot of time off from sheep over May/June to train for USDAA Regionals (and you saw how well THAT went! LOL!), so he won't be ready in 2 short weeks.

 

You might be pleasantly surprised. Many dogs do excellently coming off a "vacation" from stock.

 

Keepstone offers a very novice-friendly trial. As Laurie said, appropriate sheep (but not a giveaway), a reasonable course, and a friendly atmosphere. I'd recommend it highly.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Sue that Keepstone can be a good place to start out a novice dog. I wish I had the pups ready to trial as I would certainly go run them. But with just Larky (who, BTW, was a little star this past weekend), 5 hours is too much of a drive (I you, Larky, but not THAT much, LOL!) . (Plus I have to go pick up some sheep in western NC.)

 

J.

[Sue R]

So, Julie, how about some details on your Larky-brag?

[Sue R]

Our Novice has a drive. . . but. . .you're allowed to go with the dog to help them out. I think that's a nice touch!

 

You can always do that but you just lose your points and retire if you do in VBCA. Sometimes that's the best thing you can do for your dog, and I'm ashamed that I haven't done it more often, having a bad case of hold-on-to-the-post-itis.