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Katz has a video up of his dogs working sheep. It is here: Rose, Izzy and sheep

 

I'm sure there is much to discuss on it (like the fact that they appear to be making their own decisons about what to do with no direction from him), but my real burning question is whether or not they have been shaved. And if so, isn't that ill-advised for double-coated dogs?

 

ETA: On another page on his site, he describes Rose as "freshly shorn", so I guess that answers the question.

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Oh, where's that popcorn-eating emoticon? Just sittin' back, waiting...

 

(BTW, I'm so out of touch, thankfully, I don't even know who Rose and Izzy are. Must be new dogs since last I read anything from him. One of them looks quite young, and they both look shaved, to me. :rolleyes: )

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I take care of an Australian Shepherd and I do not hesitate to have him clipped down. I don't have him clipped to the skin but he is clipped fairly close. He has sooo much hair and once he starts to shed his hair matts quickly. He acts like he feels better after he is clipped. Maybe not the best for all dogs, but I do think it is the best for him.

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My first impulse is to say, that's not that bad. Compare to my vid, "Ben and the storm." But then I realize, he was showing off and thinks that's actually superior work. And no one imagines that I'm an expert on "herding."

 

I freely admit I'm a putzer whose greatest current aspiration is to move sheep from one side of my farm to the other without the world coming to an end. And I also freely admit I could improve greatly with expert advice and more time spent on the technical parts of this.

 

That's the creepy thing. He's an odd combination of lack of aspiration, and arrogance. Like a child who's proud because he's the only one in his class who can't read. Strange and creepy.

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My trainer would kick his ass, because he opened the gate and let them fly in there. We were always taught to have the dogs wait for a send command. If I let Piper whip in there like that they would be over the far fence and gone before you could say "Damn it RDM, you're a moron!"

 

I hate that he made enough money off his poor dogs to buy a sheep farm and now he doesn't even know what to do with it.

 

Do you think the one dog hurt its leg flying around the sheep without being directed, maybe?

 

RDM

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Since I don't herd, I don't know what exactly I am seeing, but it looks rather chaotic to me. Is it supposed to be? Also, are the dogs supposed to bite the sheep (did I see that?) or is it a preference? And were those casts on the one dog or support bandages?

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Since I don't herd, I don't know what exactly I am seeing, but it looks rather chaotic to me. Is it supposed to be? Also, are the dogs supposed to bite the sheep (did I see that?) or is it a preference?

Vickim,

The dogs are *supposed* to bite generally only when challenged (which would require the sheep to be facing the dog and actually either refusing to move or actively going after the dog). What you saw in the video are what we posers call a cheap shot, meaning the sheep were moving and the dog had no valid reason for flying in and biting. That is unacceptable behavior, especially in a supposedly trained dog.

 

Did anyone notice that at least some of those sheep appear to be tunis? Poor things.

 

ETA: I am also not quite sure why, with such a small flock, two dogs are necessary to move the sheep. ISTM that letting both dogs have at it just sets things up for even more chaos.

 

J.

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It is chaotic- take a border collie, add sheep and let it roll. Apparently that is what is happening. Rebecca- I know what you mean by when we train maybe things don't look well, but we certainly don't just stand there like a spectator and let it happen. I would not be surprised if the sheep got sour pretty quick with this stuff. Looks like there are a fair amount of lambs- the ones that the dogs gripped. Those sneaky cheap shots (biting the sheep) are just what make sheep recalcitrant and more apt to fight. And, as for running ahead and just letting them do what they will to get the sheep- notice it faded out after they headed out- is a great illustration of the non-control which is demonstrated throughout the clip. The dogs could be good working dogs- but from this video, they can't get a chance to demonstrate it. Reminds me of that video where the sheep was chased while the trainer and owner watched, and it ran into the fence and was knocked out.

Julie

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That's the creepy thing. He's an odd combination of lack of aspiration, and arrogance. Like a child who's proud because he's the only one in his class who can't read. Strange and creepy.

 

What a great observation. Sometimes Katz strikes me as autistic in the way he views things. I can't watch the video on my computer, drat, but hope to see it on a friend's tomorrow. Quinn's only had a grand total of 9 lessons so I know next to nothing, but my friend whose dog had a whole two lessons said "It's nothing like the the way the instructor handles the dogs" and commented on how chaotic it was, how Katz gives no commands and that one of the dogs seemed to be biting a sheep's neck???

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I haven't read Katz. I don't know much about him aside from what I've heard on here but. . .

didn't someone say he had foo-foo bred dogs? That would probably explain both the need to shave them (wouldn't want John Q Public to confuse the sheep and dog, would we?), and the need to just sort of let them mill around and occasionally have them Lie Down and look intense.

 

Definitely a whole lot of nothing going on there. I could've accomplished that with a stick and a bucket of grain, sans dog. :rolleyes:

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lol my first thought was "my those are some well trained sheep" the sheep started moving nicley as a flock toward him before the dogs even got near them lol they simpley continued on with a dog randomly running behind them...then they were scattered breifly with a cheap shot, and they brought themselves back together.... hehehe Happy had a more difficult flock then that her FIRST time on sheep(wasnt set up for beginners, all the other dogs there were working farm and trial dogs, heck I was only there because I was personaly invited lol)

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Shayna, that was exactly my reaction too. The sheep trying to get to the person, with the dogs running randomly around them and now and then zooming in for a cheap shot. And as Becca says, the most remarkable thing is that he seems to be proud of this. His voice doesn't change at all when the dog dives in for a grip, he just goes on saying how great the dogs are doing. What are they being great at? What's the task? When somebody wants to see my dogs work, I show the dogs doing something useful, even if it's just shedding off some sheep and moving them away from the others. I mean, that's the point of a herding dog, isn't it? They can do something that it would be hard to do without them. Even if I were showing somebody a youngster who hadn't gotten very far yet, I'd show how the dog balanced the sheep to me as I moved around. This doesn't show anything except dogs running around sheep and lying down when told to. And of course most people who see this will assume that's what sheepherding is, because Katz the Expert Who Has a Farm says it is.

 

If Katz were honest, he would say, "The dogs aren't trained because I don't really like training; I'm not interested in learning how to do it and I have physical limitations that would make it hard for me to train them. I prefer to let them do what they please, and since I don't need much done with a tame flock this size, I don't need to train them. I just let them run around the sheep, which they enjoy." I could respect that. To each his own, although I kinda hate to see sheep harassed to no purpose. But for him to say that he HAS trained the dogs, in his own unique way, and that Rose is as good as any sheepdog around -- which he DOES say -- and then offer this example is just asinine.

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Eileen

Do you honestly think that the word shedding has been utlized there, other than in reference to the dog's coat? My main issue is that the dogs are moving around (except the few lie downs) willy nilly- like John is just a spectator. If the sheep DO come running to the handler- and this does happen with MANY of the dog broke sheep I see, at the VERY least, the handler could ask the dog for a down, and not let them ring the sheep- WHILE taking cheap shots. I would like to see those sheep on honest, well trained dogs.

Julie

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If Katz were honest, he would say, "The dogs aren't trained because I don't really like training; I'm not interested in learning how to do it and I have physical limitations that would make it hard for me to train them. I prefer to let them do what they please, and since I don't need much done with a tame flock this size, I don't need to train them. I just let them run around the sheep, which they enjoy." I could respect that. To each his own, although I kinda hate to see sheep harassed to no purpose. But for him to say that he HAS trained the dogs, in his own unique way, and that Rose is as good as any sheepdog around -- which he DOES say -- and then offer this example is just asinine.

 

But then, if he admitted his dogs aren't actually trained, how could he tell all those "Rose and I saved the stupid farmers again" stories?

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But then, if he admitted his dogs aren't actually trained, how could he tell all those "Rose and I saved the stupid farmers again" stories?

 

Correct!

Thanks for putting this video up on the boards. I really never searched the net for info on Katz because when I read his book on Orson I could not read the end it just ripped me apart. I have read many many comments from people though who disagreed with his decision but disagree or not, I find it very very sad.

 

I remember he said Rose came from a great line of Herders and that was why she basically picked it up on her own, which would imply he did not have alot to do with her training.

I know nothing about Herding except what I have watched.

I read the book for two reasons:

 

1. because I was goin though a rough time with my 9 month old BC and reading Orson's story actually made me feel fortunate that my BC was not THAT bad! :rolleyes:

 

2. I thought about Herding/ vrs Agility, and I visited the farm ( it is only 15 min from where I live) where Katz got started in herding and where his first sheep came from. I could have done the Instinct Testing there in Feburary, but in the end, Cost was a factor in my decision, and I think that Tucker & I are having more fun with Agility.

Either sport can be pricy, but Agility we can do at home in the yard; we can do it for fun or compete, (our choice), and finally,, I found out Tucker loves to eat sheep Poo!

:D

Pia

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I think herding versus agility is all about where you are in your stages of life, what you are "looking for" as well as what the dog/human prefer. $$ is a factor, but agility does add up too. I am taking a long hiatus from agility now, and have not once looked back. It is quite odd.

Julie

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