Not enough discussion/debate on this

[countryboy]

Not enough discussion/debate on this topic:

 

Hip dysplasia - the topic only my professors seem to discuss in class. And when I bring up the topic of HD in dogs, they scowl and say all of us dog people are idiots. (Yeah, I am a pre-vet student, i.e. hoping to get into vet school one day).

 

But today I read this article:

 

http://www.stilhope.com/hipartical.htm

 

Clearly more debate and discussion is needed on hip dysplasia. But the topic is largely ignored, especially by breeders.

[Alaska]

CB,

 

You'd probably enjoy reading this thread from the FAQ section of this board. LOTS of discussion.

[Pipedream Farm]

countryboy,

 

First off, welcome to the boards. Secondly there is pleanty of discussion of CHD here. If you don't know, Denise Wall is a forum member and member of the ABCA Health & Genetics committee. The ABCA has an on going study with Dr Todhunter at Cornell: Canine Hip Dysplasia.

 

What would you like to discuss?

 

Mark Billadeau (ABCA Health & Genetics Committee Member)

[Guest pax]

I would like to discuss the fact I am a whopping bonehead and forgot to make Nash's appt for the study.

 

Do we need to coordinate or can I just make the appt when I am there with Lily this morning?

[Pipedream Farm]

Make the appointment while you're there. Then I'll send you papers to bring with you.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Clearly more debate and discussion is needed on hip dysplasia. But the topic is largely ignored, especially by breeders.

 

countryboy,

If you use the search function and search CHD, hips, or dysplasia (or all three), especially in the Health & Genetics section, I think you will find tons of discussion. Breeders certainly do pay attention as do many owners, especially of working dogs. It might be helpful if you were actually to peruse some of the threads on this forum before making blanket statements such as you made at the start of this thread. Once you have read through the numerous threads on the topic, then maybe you can post specific questions those discussions have brought to your mind.

 

J.

[countryboy]

Thanks Mark for the link.

- Who are the other members of the ABCA Health & Genetics Committee?

- Does your Pipedream Farm have a website?

[Sue R]

Justin - You can find out a great deal about ABCA, USBCHA, and USBCC at www.bordercollie.org, where access to all three organizations and a great deal of helpful information can be found.

[countryboy]

countryboy,

 

What would you like to discuss?

 

A few things first.

 

1) Bill Fosher had written in another thread "CHD so widely diagnosed and treated in Border collies in the US, while it is virtually unheard of in the same dogs in the UK." What is the consensus on this issue? Is it because not many people test for CHD in the UK? Is it because they have better dogs down there? Is it because vets here are out to make a quick buck? What is the general consensus on the topic?

 

2) PrarieFire had asked "Do you really maintain that 12.5% and 15% are statistically significant? And that you can predict the offsprings hip scores?" My statistics professor would say the answer to the first one would depend on the sample size. But I would like to know more about the answer to the second question. I know researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have come up with a way of predicting offspring hip scores. Does anyone know more about this? Maybe Dr Chang could help since she is a Penn PhD?

 

3) Who are the other members of the ABCA Health & Genetics Committee?

[Jack & Co.]

Is it because vets here are out to make a quick buck? What is the general consensus on the topic?

 

I imagine the general consensus is going to be that that is insulting. Is that why you would like to become a vet? Like Julie P. pointed out earlier, your behavior is troll-like.

[countryboy]

I imagine the general consensus is going to be that that is insulting. Is that why you would like to become a vet? Like Julie P. pointed out earlier, your behavior is troll-like.

 

You misquoted me. I think I have asked legitimate questions, so I resent being called a troll. My fundamental objective in asking that question was to consider the source of my BC. In other words I am struggling with whether I should get my BC from this country or acquire one from Scotland. I have noted that those on this forum who acquired their dog from overseas (e.g. Fly by Dr Melanie Chang) have been generally happy with their dog.

[Jack & Co.]

No, I did not misquote you, hence the quotation marks indicating that I quoted you verbatim.

[Shetlander]

My fundamental objective in asking that question was to consider the source of my BC. In other words I am struggling with whether I should get my BC from this country or acquire one from Scotland.

 

I believe a number of people have suggested doing searches and reading previous threads on such subjects as where to get a BC and CHD. Also, you might want to take a few days to just read what people are writing, joking about, getting up in arms over to get a feel for this community and learn a good deal about this breed.

[Maralynn]

I believe that the vast majority who aquire a dog from a good working breeder in this country are also satisfied with their dog. It's not really rocket science when you start looking in the right place (ie, USBCHA or simular trials). The key is getting out and seeing who has dogs that are regularly competeing at a high level. Then talk to handlers at trials. Tell them what you are looking for in a dog and ask if they know of working pups that are for sale or planned breedings. Not all working breeders do hip x-rays (becasue if a dog is able to work day in and day out over the course of a few years, chances are pretty good that they are sound), but many do, and you should be able to locate a breeder who has done health checks on their dogs without much problem.

 

My second dog came from a working breeder whom I had seen several times over a few years doing herding demos for a wool show. I had the opportunity to see his dogs work and talk to him, also a couple of people I knew had gotten working dogs from him and had been very pleased with them. He had nice dogs, and I had a good overall feeling about getting a dog from him. I told him what I wanted in a pup or dog and he told me he had a young dog that he thought would fit the bill. And out of it I got a sound healthy dog that has plenty of drive to work, yet fits in very well for my situation.

[AK dog doc]

You misquoted me.

 

No, she didn't. Go back and re-read your post. Your actual words were, verbatim, and I quote: "Is it because vets here are out to make a quick buck? What is the general consensus on the topic?" End quote.

 

And, as someone who is NOT hoping to become a vet, but already IS one, I have to say that it IS rather insulting for you to suggest that we, the veterinary community, would fraudulently over-diagnose something or otherwise invent a spurious diagnosis, in order to turn a profit. I have no idea where you get this notion, nor have I any idea what your own personal ethical stance is that this should have occurred to you. However, let me make it PERFECTLY clear that this is not a nation-wide conspiracy amongst all veterinarians to turn a profit at the expense of not only our clients, but also our patients and our own professional integrety. I find myself wondering, like Jack & Co., why you would hope to join such a community, if this is really what you think of us. If you do indeed intend to become a member of the veterinary community, you might want to refrain from insulting and calling into question the moral and ethical integrety of your future colleagues. That sort of thing tends to come back and bite you in the ass tenfold, just FYI, so having some circumspection starting now might be a good idea. Just a thought.

 

I think I have asked legitimate questions, so I resent being called a troll. My fundamental objective in asking that question was to consider the source of my BC. In other words I am struggling with whether I should get my BC from this country or acquire one from Scotland. I have noted that those on this forum who acquired their dog from overseas (e.g. Fly by Dr Melanie Chang) have been generally happy with their dog.

 

Without having polled the entire board to see where everyone got their dogs, I'd have to guess that most of the American boardites have gotten their dogs domestically. Many of us are EXTREMELY happy with those dogs. Where you decide to get your dog may depend a great deal on what it is you intend to DO with your dog. If you are looking for a working stockdog, you may be in a very dfferent market than if you are looking for an active companion with whom to do sports, obedience, SAR, or generally just hanging around. FWIW, I have 2.5 BCs bred in the States and I am VERY happy with all of them - for different reasons and/or combinations of reasons. You don't have to go overseas to get an excellent stockdog, nor an excellent companion, nor a BC who has textbook-perfect hips and is otherwise genetically sound. I'd venture to guess that a number of us have all three in our housholds, even as we speak.

[Pipedream Farm]

My fundamental objective in asking that question was to consider the source of my BC. In other words I am struggling with whether I should get my BC from this country or acquire one from Scotland.

 

Please review your first thread where I provided a link to a stockdog association in UT. These people will know who the working border collie breeders are in your state.

 

If you stick with these breeders I suspect you'll minimize the risk of getting a pup that will develop CHD. Bill talked about rates of CHD in the USA; however, this probably included all Border Collies (working bred, pet bred, show bred, and sport bred); the rates of CHD in these groups may not be equivalent.

 

Our dogs are working bred in the USA and all have hips that are "within normal limits". The worst set of hips I've seen was on a working bred dog (fully trained) from overseas and the very poor quality of the hips was not known because they were not tested. This dog had no signs of lameness despite not having hip sockets.

 

Early in this thread I posted a link to an on going CHD study; in this link you'll find this statement comparing the sensitivity and specificity of three radiographic methods of predicating CHD.

 

At 8 months of age, the sensitivity and specificity of the OFA-like radiograph was 38 and 96%, respectively and for the distraction index [Penn Hip] (values of >0.7 considered abnormal) were 50 and 89%, respectively and for the dorsolateral subluxation score (scores <55% were considered abnormal) were 83 and 84% respectively.

 

 

Sensitivity is the proportion of true positives that are correctly identified by the test.

Specificity is the proportion of true negatives that are correctly identified by the test.

 

 

I'll let the other committee members identify themselves if they choose.

 

We do not have a farm website.

 

Mark

 

BTW your vet comment was rude (and accurately quoted). Also I suggest you learn to use the search engine here and do more reading. Look at it from our point of view, these questions have been asked by many new forum members and answered over-and-over-and-over again by those who have been here for a while.