BC for Search & Rescue as well as herding

[Guest pax]

Yeah, cause it'd be a real bitch if the dog got that backwards.

 

 

 

I just shot coffee out my nose, Sally

[juliepoudrier]

Y'all are right--this whole thing is pretty surreal.

 

Countryboy,

If you don't care about SAR and the person starting the group, why even post the website or discuss SAR? If all you wanted was help on finding a good working-bred border collie, why not just have asked that? This whole things seems very troll-like.

 

J.

[vickim]

Sally, you are too funny!

 

 

I was never any great whiz at geography but isn't rural Utah in the USA? Doesn't countryboy say that he does not live in the USA but in rural Utah?

 

Also, it does seem odd to me that a SAR dog would be trained both for SAR and herding. I was under the impression that SAR dogs work and train all the time--even if not on a call, they still have to keep their skills fresh and thus practice. Am I mistaken?

[Maralynn]

That is hilarious Sally!

 

 

I was under the impression that SAR dogs work and train all the time--even if not on a call, they still have to keep their skills fresh and thus practice. Am I mistaken?

 

You are correct. In the begining, you should be doing some sort of training on your own almost every day, and with a group at least 3 or 4 times a month. You also need to be getting your dog out and about and training in different locations and exposing it to a variety of situations. Fully trained dogs still need to practice their skills often (in a variey of locations) to keep in practice. The more training and practice, the more your dog is going to be ready for the real thing.

[countryboy]

Juliepuodrier, I read your responses to me in not only this thread but other threads too. I am disappointed that you continue to insult me in every one of your responses and you put words into my mouth. The end result is that many others attribute your comments to me.

 

I never said I don't care about SAR. I am pretty passionate about SAR. I just said I don't care about the motivations of the person who started the SAR group in Parowan. He is just a Native American who likes to be left alone and I guess most Native Americans are that way, especially educated ones. But I never said I don't care about SAR because I am passionate about search and rescue work.

 

And may I remind you that I am passionate about herding too. We herd with ATV's now and I would like to try herding with dogs. I saw Briards herding in Europe and they do a much better job that we do with our ATV's. The Briards herded over 500 sheep along busy highways and the shepherds were busy smoking or doing their own thing, scarcely paying attention to the dogs. Since I have never seen a Briard outside of Europe, I would like to try herding with Border Collies. And I love Border Collies.

 

Justin

[Jack & Co.]

What are this person's SAR credentials? Has he successfully led or participated in a SAR group? In his "Infrequently asked questions about german shepherds" he mentions that he is an economist. I have a feeling that it will take more than hauling some puppies to Las Vegas and playing hide-and-seek with the firemen to create a SAR unit that will actually prove useful.

 

You mentioned that you are in a pre-vet program in the hopes of becoming a vet; will you be able to divide your time between your schoolwork and the training that will be necessary to develop a dog to the level than it can actually contribute?

[countryboy]

You mentioned that you are in a pre-vet program in the hopes of becoming a vet; will you be able to divide your time between your schoolwork and the training that will be necessary to develop a dog to the level than it can actually contribute?

 

I am not a very smart person. But if I get into vet school - and that is a big IF - I suppose I will have to drop out of both SAR and herding myself since who knows which school I end up joining and in which state. The BC I acquire will be used by my parents and siblings to herd sheep. We presently herd using ATV's.

[juliepoudrier]

Justin,

Are you saying that your parents/family are also interested in using border collies to work the sheep or just that they might use the dog if you get into vet school and have to leave it behind? I'm curious about what led you/your family to start working your livestock with ATVs in the first place. Have you just always done it that way? No animosity intended in these questions--I've just always wondered how farmers/ranchers choose, say, ATVs over working dogs and was wondering if they just figured that an ATV would be easier. Can you shed some light on that thought process? Thanks.

 

As for your comments regarding my "insulting" you, I can assure you that insult wasn't intended, but as long-time member and contributor to this forum, multiple posts from a brand new member, asking all sorts of rather strange questions (or making comments like the ones about HD, which clearly are misguided and seem rather provacative), does raise red flags. And I always tell people they should use the search function, especially when they come here and ask a question like it's the first time it's ever been asked. The fact is that if you (and anyone else) would use the search function you could find all sorts of good information, some from people who no longer even bother to post but who used to provide valuable information, regarding things like health, how to find a good breeder, SAR work with your dog, and so on. It's a shame that so much is missed because people don't want to do any background reading before posing questions, that's all.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Justin - I can't allow your comments about Julie to pass without some retort on my part. When you have been on the boards for any reasonable amount of time, you will realize that Julie is one of the most valuable contributors here and offers some of the most helpful and insightful advice.

 

You sound enthused and youthfully exhuberant about what appears to be an interest of yours in which you seem to have relatively little experience - working-bred Border Collies. You will surely benefit from listening to folks like Julie who can offer years of experience and a wealth of advice based on that experience, instead of being defensive and reactionary to her comments.

 

Actually, Julie was probably voicing some thoughts that others have considered but haven't posted. Stay, ask, listen, and learn and you will come away from the boards with some valuable information and a source of answers to your reasonable questions. Get defensive and offensive, and you will be missing out on a worthwhile opportunity to learn. Plainspoken folks like Julie, Melanie, Eileen, RDM, and others have a lot to offer but they don't suffer fools lightly, as I and numerous others have found out. But they will teach you a very great deal that is of great worth if you are willing to learn.

[Maralynn]

I never said I don't care about SAR. I am pretty passionate about SAR. I just said I don't care about the motivations of the person who started the SAR group in Parowan. He is just a Native American who likes to be left alone and I guess most Native Americans are that way, especially educated ones. But I never said I don't care about SAR because I am passionate about search and rescue work.

 

And may I remind you that I am passionate about herding too. We herd with ATV's now and I would like to try herding with dogs. I saw Briards herding in Europe and they do a much better job that we do with our ATV's. The Briards herded over 500 sheep along busy highways and the shepherds were busy smoking or doing their own thing, scarcely paying attention to the dogs. Since I have never seen a Briard outside of Europe, I would like to try herding with Border Collies. And I love Border Collies.

 

Justin

 

I believe it would be dificult for a person new to both herding and SAR to train one dog to do both well at the same time. So you would have to A) Get a good foundation trained for SAR - probably close to 2 years worth if starting with a pup - before starting herding with your dog, B ) Get a good foundation for herding - again close to 2 years if starting with a pup, and then train for SAR (but you do run the risk that after the dog is trained for herding it is not going to be a good SAR canidate as it's highest interest will be in working livestock) or C ) have 2 different dogs, one for herding and one for SAR, realizing the time and effort that go into raising and training 2 BCs.

 

You really need to choose which is the most important for you to master and focus on that if you want to learn how to become skilled in one of those areas. Not that you can't learn both, but it would be wise to master one before starting on the other.

[countryboy]

Jack writes {{What are this person's SAR credentials? Has he successfully led or participated in a SAR group? In his "Infrequently asked questions about german shepherds" he mentions that he is an economist. I have a feeling that it will take more than hauling some puppies to Las Vegas and playing hide-and-seek with the firemen to create a SAR unit that will actually prove useful.}}

 

Jack, you will have to ask him that. He seemed a little cold towards me yesterday after I told him I had posted about the S&R operation on this forum because he likes to do his work quietly and privately.

 

Julie asks {{Are you saying that your parents/family are also interested in using broder collies to work the sheep or just that they might use the dog if you get into vet school and have to leave it behind? I'm curious about what led you/your family to start working your livestock with ATVs in the first place. Have you just always done it that way? No animosity intended in these questions--I've just always wondered how farmers/ranchers choose, say, ATVs over working dogs and was wondering if they just figured that an ATV would be easier. Can you shed some light on that thought process?}}

 

Julie, I recently met a really hot chick here, so I am hoping I won't have to leave this area and anyway I don't think I will be accepted into a vet school given my grades. But you never know. About ATV's, almost all of us herd using ATV's or horses here in rural Utah. We all have dogs on farms but most of us don't know how to train dogs for herding.

 

Once every two years, they have a demonstration at a livestock show or rodeo with dogs trying to herd 3-5 sheep, which I enjoy because I love dogs. But most farmers scoff and say to themselves "Heck I have 800+ sheep and it is better to hire a Mexican or two with horses for a day instead of this heeler that can herd only five sheep at most." A family friend has 3,000 sheep. This time of the year he trucks the sheep from Nevada where he spends the winters to Utah and drops them in an area where he has a permit. Then two Mexicans on horses will herd them over a cattle trail for 15 miles into the mountains where he has a ranch with 3 Great Pyranees dogs for protection. The BLM has lined the border of his ranch with "aphese" so that coyotes won't get to the sheep, so even the 3 Pyranees dogs are not really needed and he wants to get rid of them this year. It takes him 2 days to get there from down where we are at to his ranch in the mountains. All he has to pay is the two Mexicans for 2 days and they work for pennies. No need to bother with herding dogs. That is the reality for us here.

 

But not all of us are like that. I am trying to persuade my family to get Border Collies to herd out livestock.

[countryboy]

Not to mention the fact that dogs don't have the height and cannot locate sheep in thick brush (the major kind of vegetation here in the mountains). A man on a horse can see the sheep and herd it, so that is one more reason why farmers use horses here. Some Mexicans don't even charge to do the work as long as they get food and a shelter somewhere on the farm. But even with horses, sometimes sheep are left behind in the brush.

 

Out in the plains (desert really), an ATV does the job in minutes because the entire flock seems really afraid of the ATV and hurries away as quickly as they can. With a dog, I suppose only sheep closest to the dog would feel pressured to move somewhat slowly - but I don't know much about herding with dogs myself.

 

What really hurts is when farmers see herding events once every two years at the local rodeo or some other livestock event. Very few farmers show up for these events, which usually feature a Blue Heeler or a Border Collie. Even those that do attend spend most of the time at the hot dog stand while the herding event is in progress. The dog herds just 3-5 sheep and this is what really hurts herding with dogs! Because farmers who do attend tell everyone else that dogs are no good at herding because they can only manage about 3 sheep. Then most farmers say to themselves that since they have 800 - 5,000+ sheep, dogs are not for them since dogs can herd only 3-5 sheep.

 

Which I know is not true because I have seen Briards herd several hundred sheep in Europe with no involvement from the shepherds.

[Carson Crazies]

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=11538

 

You may be interested to read the above thread. It is a pictoral essay from one of the board's members recently, and I think addresses some of your concerns/statements.

[countryboy]

Another sad thing is the decline in farmers using Great Pyrennees dogs for livestock protection. The preferred method here in Utah is using "aphese" which shoots a cynide bullet into the mouth of the coyote (also a disincentive against using herding dogs because dogs could sniff at the bait and get similarly killed).

 

Everyone is encouraged to kill coyotes. So hunters kill them out. Sometimes the BLM (actually it is some other department like BLM) uses aircraft to take them out. Then there is the practice of "denning" where cubs are killed. There is snaring and trapping of coyotes - also a danger to herding/LGD dogs. Then there is the M-44, which is a mechanical device that shoots sodium cyanide powder into the mouth of a predator. The M-44 top is baited with a scent attractive to predators and when the bait is bitten and pulled upward by the animal, the device ejects sodium cyanide powder into the animal's mouth, killing it in less than 90 seconds.

 

You also have the LPC's - livestock protection collar or "toxic collar" or "1080 collar" which is attached with straps to the throat of vulnerable livestock. Predators kill by attacking at the throat, and in doing so usually puncture one or both of the collar pouches, thus receiving a lethal dose of the toxicant.

 

Because of these methods, lifestock guardian dogs are also unfortunately not used.

 

I am not an expert in this but hope this answers your question.

[SAR-BC19]

Quote:

 

I don't care about who is starting this S&R unit, why he is starting it or stuff like that.

 

I think it is essential that you care about these things if you are serious about SAR. If you are not happy with the person in charge, the other team members, the philosophy behind their training methods, the purpose of starting the group in the first place etc, I don't see how it can work. I am not trying to be condascending. I am speaking from experience. I joined an SAR group full of hope and expectation but decided to quit after I realized it wasn't the right group for me. It was a painful and stressfull experience. Just needed to say that.

As for a good breeder - I think someone provided a link earlier ( sorry, if I'm wrong ) Also, are there any trials ( stockdog ) in your area. To visit and talk to people who have working BCs may be a good way of finding a good breeder.

 

Perfectly said Zoe.