BC for Search & Rescue as well as herding

[countryboy]

A question on how to acquire a border collie. We own livestock but we herd using ATV’s and on horseback.

 

Hello everyone, I am hoping to be part of a new ALL-border collie search and rescue unit in my area. We are located in the middle of nowhere with only canyons, coyotes, mountain lions, bears, farms and national parks for company.

 

The guy who is starting the S&R unit is a great guy and super-friendly but he is extremely strict about the border collies he allows into the unit w.r.t. health and working ability. He does not provide recommendations on breeders since he thinks it would be unethical of him to first provide breeder recommendations and then assess suitability of the pup for his unit. He maintains that a border collie that does not herd will not be permitted into the S&R unit. Even after the dog is part of the unit, he insists that the dog must continue to herd in its daily life! If the dog stops herding, he says he will not permit it to continue in the S&R unit.

 

One of my friends bought a border collie pup from an agility champion in Las Vegas. It is an excellent dog but he won’t permit it in the unit because the pup’s parents did not do any herding and because according to him, a border collie that does not herd should not be bred, period (even if it is an agility champion). He says the herding ability should be carefully fostered in border collies. Another woman had a great border collie but when he learned she bought it from an AKC breeder, he said she had sent him a signal that she did not know much about border collies otherwise she would not have associated with an AKC border collie breeder. She was not permitted to be part of the unit either.

 

Considering that I am hoping to be part of this unit (the web page of the S&R unit is at http://gsdfaq.googlepages.com/), what strategy would you recommend for getting a puppy? What source should I get my pup from so that it gets accepted into the S&R unit? I don’t want to get a pup only to have it rejected on health grounds.

 

Thanx,

Justin

[Jack & Co.]

Your link doesn't work.

[Pipedream Farm]

Link: Parowan K-9 Search & Rescue Unit

 

I subscribe to the old-school view that if a border collie does not herd, it should not be bred. It is therefore important that the border collie must continue to herd stock while it is part of the S&R unit (the herding trait must be carefully nurtured in all border collies).

 

I wonder how the "old-school view" has anything to do with being part of the S&R unit unless the S&R until will also be breeding dogs.

 

To find a working breeder you could start here: Utah Stockdog Association

 

Mark

[Maralynn]

I don't see why he insists on having a one breed unit. That seems as if would exclude alot of good dogs. Has he trained SAR dogs before? To what levels has he trained?

 

I do strongly agree that BCs that don't demonstrate great herding ability shouldn't be bred (including sport champions). But what would happen if someone wanted to train with a rescue dog? would he exclude that dog as well?

 

I am currently begining SAR training with a working bred BC who shows good promise, and can really see why he would prefer working line dogs. It makes alot sense to start with a dog with the drive to work. But automatically excluding dogs just doesn't seem like a good idea either.

[Pipedream Farm]

I don't see why he insists on having a one breed unit. That seems as if would exclude alot of good dogs. Has he trained SAR dogs before?

 

He does say this at the bottom of the linked page.

 

Unfortunately, casual empiricism suggests that there is a strong negative correlation between heterogeneity in breed composition and the possibility of accreditation or funding. An all-border collie unit or all-GSD unit or an all-blood hound unit always has a better chance of making it and attracting funding. Organizations like the American Rescue Dog Association accredits only units with german shepherds, which I think is unfortunate. The police and sheriff departments in the region are also likely to be more favorable towards a unit comprising of german shepherds.

 

Mark

[Jack & Co.]

Thanks for the link, Mark.

 

** Note (a): I know many of you want all breeds to be permitted in the Parowan Search & Rescue unit. Unfortunately, casual empiricism suggests that there is a strong negative correlation between heterogeneity in breed composition and the possibility of accreditation or funding. An all-border collie unit or all-GSD unit or an all-blood hound unit always has a better chance of making it and attracting funding. Organizations like the American Rescue Dog Association accredits only units with german shepherds, which I think is unfortunate. The police and sheriff departments in the region are also likely to be more favorable towards a unit comprising of german shepherds. Once the Parowan S&R unit is up and running, which may take a couple years, we will permit other breeds like labradors, goldens, mixed breeds, etc. Personally, I believe the best source of Search & Rescue dogs is your local shelter, and I hope we will rely on shelters to acquire dogs after we are well-established and accredited. But in the initial stages, it looks like we may be forced to go with a one-breed unit.

 

Maralynn, it kind of sounds from this like he thinks he will get more funds with an all BC unit.

 

ETA- I posted at the same time as Mark did; the same thing caught our eye.

[Catu]

The link works, but you have to delete the parentheses at the end.

 

I would say that the guy have is priorities in the wrong place. In a SAR team, the only and one priority should be to save lives, not the breeding issue. I agree with not to breed non working stock dogs, but you don't have to breed your SAR dog.. are you?

 

To choose a dog for myself I would prefer european lines of GSD or working lines of BCs but it doesn't mean in any way that if someone comes with a good dog who prove itself to had conditions to the speciality it should be banned by its papers or absence of them. Otherwise, my own team couldn't even exist, as many of our dogs are rescues. i don't know your reality, but in this part of the world, you just can't be too picky, much less when talking about volunteer work.

 

And just a thought... but reading the website, this guy sounds like a person hard to deal with, he sounds like that more than form a volunteer unit, he wants to own one... just a thought. The BC Karellian new breed... that sound odd.

 

ETA: I posted at the same time too

About working stock and SAR at the same time... To train the same dog in two different and exigent disciplines you have to be a really good trainer and have a lot of experience, I myself am not there yet. SAR is not a sport, mistakes cost human lives and real stocking seem as a big responsability too, maybe you can be good at agility and frisbee, but we are not talking of the same. Maybe this guy is capable to do both, I don't know his credentials, but to ask novices to do the same can result in a mess. Otherwise, I want a SAR dog who is 100% involved in his task and won't run towards the sheeps in the middle of a search, even if its genes scream for it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

This is just really strange all around unless indeed there's a breeding program in the making here. I'm not really thrill with that idea, but I've heard of worse reasons to breed dogs and certainly he's sort of thinking along the right lines.

 

I'm thinking he's trying to take on too much at once, of this world - funding, breeding, managing a new group. I agree that an SAR group should be focused 100% on their mission to save lives and I'm afraid this guy might be too caught up in politics to guarantee that. It would be terribly hard to work for such a person, with such an important mandate at hand.

 

As to where to find a nice dog, definitely connect with the working trial people - get involved with the trials and clinics available around you, and take some time to decide what kind of dog appeals best to you. You'll probably find yourself attracted to the people who have operations most similar to yours, and that will give you a chance to pick their brains about the kind of dog you need.

 

Pick a dog that will be suitable for what you do with your livestock, first, and worry second about the SAR, since there are lots of different working styles and they won't all work for you, but most dogs with the work ethic needed for ranch work will also do nicely as SAR dogs, service dogs, public safety, whatever.

 

Good luck!

[countryboy]

The person who is starting the all-BC S&R unit actually wants somebody else from the police or someone else to run the S&R unit and he says so on the web site too, so he is not looking to start his own dynasty or something like that. Many of his policies probably make sense in the culture we are in. Something about the culture here - Remember I am not in the USA, I am in rural Utah where you can have more than two wives and no one will look differently at you. This is mormon territory (I am not mormon). ALL dogs are bred, will be bred and MUST be bred because all females have to fulfill their true purpose on earth, which is to procreate. Even some of the vets will refuse to spay or neuter dogs and certainly most ordinary people don't spay or neuter.

 

All dogs are bred because the women in the house will breed them. The men have only one main form of entertainment: go hunting. So many of us will use hounds, tree a cougar or shoot deer. After there are puppies in the house, the men will try to sell them.

No one will buy them. Giving them away to a shelter costs money. Dropping them off quietly at the shelter will mean their cameras will catch you and the police will visit you shortly. So many times, puppies will be put in a trash bag, taken to a remote canyon and bullets will be shot into the trash bag.

 

Since treeing cougars with hounds is the most sought after form of entertainment for locals, this search and rescue unit will take off considering that the guys here want something to do with dogs. My main dilemma is lack of money. I don't want to acquire a border collie only to find that it is rejected. So what is the best way to identify breeders who focus on health and herding drive in border collies?

[Jack & Co.]

???????

[Liz P]

I have some very close Mormon friends who live "out in the middle of nowhere Utah" who would disagree with everything you just said. They care very much about the welfare of animals and do neuter their dogs. Rather than just trying to fit in please think about gently educating the locals.

 

If you do accept the way things are where you live but do not agree with their practices, why do you want to bring more dogs into such a culture and contribute to the problem? (This is a real question and is not meant as an insult.)

 

If you want a BC who is guaranteed to work stock and has the temperament for SAR work, your best bet is to buy a fully trained dog and spend some time learning how to work that dog on stock. Pups are a major gamble, not all of the pups from a working bred litter will make good stock dogs and not all have the temperament needed for SAR work.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm with Jack & Co.

 

It seems odd to me that someone who is forming a canine S&R unit would not disclose his name in his recruiting webpage. The entire page seems odd as well. Are people really likely to be recruited by this means?

 

I subscribe to the old-school view that if a border collie does not herd, it should not be bred. It is therefore important that the border collie must continue to herd stock while it is part of the S&R unit (the herding trait must be carefully nurtured in all border collies).

 

Heaven knows I'm as passionate as anyone in the view that if a border collie does not herd, it should not be bred, but I can't see why it therefore follows that a border collie should continue to herd stock while it is part of an S&R unit. There are many S&R units who will not permit a dog to herd after it begins training for S&R, because they feel a focus on livestock detracts from the singlemindedness a dog must display while searching in rural areas.

 

The whole deal sounds strange to me.

[PSmitty]

As some of you know, a few of us are also trying to create a new breed by crossing the Karelian bear dog with the border collie.

 

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Is anyone else disturbed by this person's desire to breed mixed breed dogs after having just stated how important it is for the dogs in the unit to be purebred?!

[Jack & Co.]

In my spare time, I am working on an index (similar to, but unfortunately much more complex than, the Zuchtwert system used by SV for german shepherds) that clocks both herding drive and health of the border collie. If you have mathematical abilities and a love for border collies, I would love to hear from you. Graduate students in mathematics from BYU or the University of Utah who would like to spend the summer of 2009 in Parowan working on this project are urged to contact me.

 

Wow. Calling all math majors.

[Catu]

I'm with Jack & Co.

 

It seems odd to me that someone who is forming a canine S&R unit would not disclose his name in his recruiting webpage. The entire page seems odd as well. Are people really likely to be recruited by this means?

Heaven knows I'm as passionate as anyone in the view that if a border collie does not herd, it should not be bred, but I can't see why it therefore follows that a border collie should continue to herd stock while it is part of an S&R unit. There are many S&R units who will not permit a dog to herd after it begins training for S&R, because they feel a focus on livestock detracts from the singlemindedness a dog must display while searching in rural areas.

 

The whole deal sounds strange to me.

 

Thanks!

You explained it much more better than me.

 

And remember me not to go to that place, with my beliefs and philosophies probably they would choose to shoot me instead of the cougars.

[Allie Oop]

Whew! I will vouch for the fact that some parts of rural Utah are a little bit, ummm . . . different . . . from the rest of the country, but I have lived in various areas in Utah a good portion of my life and, while I will admit there is definitely a "uniqueness" to the views shared by some of the population, my dad and brother never tree'd a 'coon in my recollection. OP's response above reminds me a bit of one of my sister's novels (she specializes in Mormon polygamy/conspiracy/intrigue thrillers).

 

No offense, countryboy, but the website seemed a little bit odd to me. I checked it out, but it doesn't even list the name of the individual who is starting up this unit, let alone credentials, and the e-mail link goes to a very neutrally named e-mail box. If you know the person, that's a good thing and there is definitely a need for good SAR in that area (darn tourists keep wandering off and getting themselves lost). Will it cover only the Parowan City area or will they work in connection with the Iron County SAR?

[Jack & Co.]

And remember me not to go to that place, with my beliefs and philosophies probably they would choose to shoot me instead of the cougars.

 

Catu, I hope not!

[Beth G]

I agree. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

And talk about contradicting one's self!

[countryboy]

I don't care about who is starting this S&R unit, why he is starting it or stuff like that. All I want to know is how can I ensure I find a breeder who

1) breeds dogs that are good at herding

2) are paranoid about health of the dog.

 

#1 shouldn't be too hard but what about #2? How can I find breeders paranoid about breeding for good health?

[Zoe]

Quote:

 

I don't care about who is starting this S&R unit, why he is starting it or stuff like that.

 

I think it is essential that you care about these things if you are serious about SAR. If you are not happy with the person in charge, the other team members, the philosophy behind their training methods, the purpose of starting the group in the first place etc, I don't see how it can work. I am not trying to be condascending. I am speaking from experience. I joined an SAR group full of hope and expectation but decided to quit after I realized it wasn't the right group for me. It was a painful and stressfull experience. Just needed to say that.

As for a good breeder - I think someone provided a link earlier ( sorry, if I'm wrong ) Also, are there any trials ( stockdog ) in your area. To visit and talk to people who have working BCs may be a good way of finding a good breeder.

[Maralynn]

From reading your posts, I get the idea that most of the breeding that goes on in your area is a bit irresponsible and haphazard? And you're looking to avoid that?

 

Anyway, the best way to find a healthy, solid working BC is to attend some stockdog trials. You can check the USBCHA website to find information on upcoming trials. But I would also think that if the individual starting the SAR group would (or should) have some contacts for reputable working breeders, if that is the foundation he wants for the group.

 

I think it is essential that you care about these things if you are serious about SAR. If you are not happy with the person in charge, the other team members, the philosophy behind their training methods, the purpose of starting the group in the first place etc, I don't see how it can work.

 

This is a very good point and one to consider before commiting to joining. SAR takes alot of time effort and money to do properly, and it is pretty important that all the members are able to work together as a team and be pretty much on the same page to be successful.

 

I noticed from reading the website that he only says that if your dog remains intact that it should do herding. In that case, I'd get a nice working bred pup and I'd neuter the dog at the right age and focus just on SAR work, especially if you've never trained either a herding or SAR dog.

[Jack & Co.]

* Most of us are not really web-savvy, so this site will remain a simple site that will be used for announcements only. Please do not publicize this site on bulletin boards or forums because, as some of you already know, I hate being in the limelight.

 

Countryboy, I went back to the website this morning and had another look around and I don't remember seeing this ^ before. I can't believe that this person has any experience in SAR or even with dogs. He seems willing to accept anyone willing to give it a whirl.

 

When you email, briefly write about yourself and list your experience with dogs, if any

 

Don't you think it's strange that he doesn't want his plans discussed on a BC forum? What's that about avoiding the "limelight"? Weird!

[Guest pax]

Does anyone know if we can insert sound on here?

 

I'm thinking "The Twilight Zone" theme would work.

[painted_ponies]

The border collie herds sheep towards the shepherd while the Karelian bear dog drives the bear away from human habitation. So it is a challenge to cross the border collie with the karelian bear dog and find the right working traits

 

Yeah, cause it'd be a real bitch if the dog got that backwards.