Quandry

[Pippin's person]

In reading the various discussions about stockwork over the last few days, I realize that I wanted some different, less emotional, footing for thinking about how owners of working border collies and owners of non-working border collies can find peace with one another. I can easily understand how people who feel proud and excited about their dogs' early looks at sheep feel hurt and chastised when various issues are pointed out. I can also easily see the frustration of years of saying the same thing over and over and having it, and all kinds of other free advice, fall on deaf (or angry) ears and thus lead folks to decide to just stop trying. Meanwhile, Border Collies of various breedings just keep being produced and either hitting the lottery with a good home or not

 

What has been reinforced for me in these discusions is that

1) Border Collies are quitessentially and essentially different dogs than other herding breeds precisely because of their instinct--not because of their training or the love of their handler or the great food and attention they get or anything else. The trainer in the pictures collies4me posted (and probably the one in the video by rainierlass) clearly works primarily with loose-eyed driving dogs--not dogs bred to do precision distance work and gathering. Using the same training methods for these different instincts is like a football coach training a basketball player--it probably looks fine at first--and the player might learn some things--but ultimately the trainer and the player are going to be mismatched. I doubt that trainers of working border collies do all that well training working Belgians either. Does that matter for a recreational orientation--I don't know really, but I think it does matter in some broader way.

 

2) It seems worrisomely easy for sheep (or other livestock) to become the living equivalent of agility obstacles when the primary purpose is recreational stock--what, work? play?. Which is not to say that the sheep are necessarily harmed by this--it's more of a moral or ethical issue.

 

3) The gap is wider than I realized and the path around it has many possible places for misunderstanding. I have generally found working stockdog owners to be incredibly generous with their advice and help. I also find stockdog trialling to be much less frought with competition and politics than some of the other dog sports and activities (not to say competition and politics are absent--but they appear to me, at least, somewhat less intense). At the same time, stockdog owners do not take a nicey-nice, fun-and-games approach that trainers in other capacities often do (esp. with beginning handlers) and that quickly turns many well-meaning owners away. I understand why it is that way (and don't think it can be different given the task), but it must be at least partly what drives folks to a different "herding" market or out of stockwork training completely.

 

I don't really know why I've posted this and I suspect it is just another version of a long-standing and well-discussed quandary--I just felt so deflated reading those posts and torn by empathy with most of the various positions being presented. Because of my own commitments and decisions, I am likely to always agree with working stockdog owners/trainers on matters related to training Border Collies for stockwork (and for many other things too), but I am nonetheless saddened by some of the inevitable consequences.

 

ETA: Too bad I couldn't spell quandary right in the title, huh?

[ShoresDog]

I come from way over on the pet side of this board. I own a border collie whose background and breeding are unknown, she's my first dog, and I never knew anything about sheepdogs until I started reading this board. I'm taking Daisy for lessons once a week with a trainer who's the real deal (our poster StockDogRanch). While Daisy doesn't have the breeding and potential of, say, Quest, we are enjoying all the learning and the opportunity to be around and see some really talented people and dogs working sheep and cows.

 

Yet, I agree, that whole thread was upsetting.

 

I just felt so deflated reading those posts and torn by empathy with most of the various positions being presented.

 

The running saga of Quest's owner getting a lot of advice on choosing a puppy, ending with his getting Quest from a really good breeder, was an example of how the back and forth can work positively. So it's especially dismaying to see a thread "go bad" with the same person! And the advice being offered was very good. I'm sure it's very hard to find a good trainer in Florida, and not everyone has big blocks of time free to drive long distances, and there could be some understanding there.

 

I really like that on this board people who seriously know a lot post and share their information. Yet I also know how much I hate it when my sister gives me unsolicited advice, "You really should do ..X..." (especially because she won't take any of MY advice!). But mainly, primarily, when this board works to exchange information and educate us, it is really awesome.

 

So, I just hope all the knowledgeable people keep posting, the tone stays as positive and encouraging as possible, and people don't feel jumped on.

[stockdogranch]

Nothing to add, really, other than: very nice post, Robin. You've stepped back and taken a really nice perspective on the whole issue. The direction that thread took was certainly unfortunate. As one who felt pretty heavily "jumped on" (that line about getting a chair for the flood of BS and all...)...whatever. In the course of a lifetime, not a big deal at all. I agree with both you and Jan that when both "sides" (I hate to look at it that way) really take the time to listen to each other, everyone gains. Most of the time on these boards, that is really the case, which is why I'm still here

Anna

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Okay. So, couple things here.

 

clearly works primarily with loose-eyed driving dogs--not dogs bred to do precision distance work and gathering. Using the same training methods for these different instincts is like a football coach training a basketball player--it probably looks fine at first--and the player might learn some things--but ultimately the trainer and the player are going to be mismatched. I doubt that trainers of working border collies do all that well training working Belgians either. Does that matter for a recreational orientation--I don't know really, but I think it does matter in some broader way.

 

This is an understandable observation, and is a belief that is held by many of those same "other" breed owners and trainers. After many years of watching and even working with, personally, "other" breed, I believe it is not only incorrect to believe this, but does the dogs a huge disservice.

 

No matter whether you are approaching a set of sheep with a Border Collie or a Bouvier des Flanders, there are certain basics that must happen in order for the stock to be comfortable. Without these basics, you must set up a highly structured, artifical environment with trained sheep, tiny courses, and very slack expectations about how to get from point A to point B.

 

I have seen excellent work on the part of Aussies, Beardies, Shelties, Bouviers, Collies, English Shepherds, and even a Rottweiller. I've seen amazingly great potential in numerous breeds, including a Border Jack (3/4 JACK!). If they can do it, why do we have to lower our expectations for any other individual in these breeds?

 

I'm a wretchedly imcompetant trainer, but I've used the method that I've been taught all along, on many of these breeds, and the only place they fail, most of the time, is in sustaining interest long enough to overcome my clumsy corrections. I've seen Jack Knox and the late Steve Clendenin work with many different breeds, and I've seen an Aussie trainer who used methods similiar to Jack's.

 

Yup, there's some bombs in there, but there's very very few dogs who couldn't be taught, if they were interested enough, to circle both ways, walk behind some dog broke sheep, and even hold a bit of pressure. Heck, my Finnish spitz mix does that. What sets the Border Collie apart is what comes next, working at great distances on difficult stock - but why sell any dog short before it's even tried?

 

What's my point? We don't criticize these methods because they apply to "different" dogs - we criticize them because they lead to a dead end in training, one that no dog deserves, and certainly not a purpose-bred Border Collie.

 

Hmm. OK, second point, I'll try not to be so wordy (lol). The problem with the "sheep as toys" mindset is that sheep AND people AND dogs can get hurt, bad, bad, bad hurt. I think I need more bads. Bad BAD BAD BAD BAD - hurt. Not good English but you get my point, I imagine.

 

I had a sheep die on me my last clinic - first time that had ever happened in any training done here - it was not anyone's fault but ours but it wasn't fun for anyone, the sheep in particular. I was in too big a hurry and marked a pregnant ewe to go in with the clinic sheep. I still wince every time I see her twin sister out there with her two little lambs (ok, not so little now).

 

Anyway, even little sheep can pack quite a punch if they head straight for your knee with a dog in full prey chase mode behind them. I could go on and on about things that can happen but I'll spare you.

 

This is the stuff we deal with every day, so it's second nature and sometimes we do forget to warn people about this side of it. It's easy to assume that people see stock the same way we do, and it's rather shocking when it's evident that they do not.

 

Third point. You are correct in that the trialing atmosphere is both warmer and more serious than dog games. Think of why this is. How these dogs perform is not just relevant to whether you Q that day or not. It might show up a potential problem that means years of training is for nothing.

 

It's not just about you and your dog, that day, but about your stock back home, how you farm, your breeding (if you bred your dog), your training - it's all on the line in a way that dog sports just don't touch. There's greater highs and far more heartbreak on that field than you'll ever find in an obedience ring, agility course, or flyball lane. When you go out there as a major player, it's for real.

[kelpiegirl]

BAD hurt yes. When I started officially wanting to work my dogs on sheep, it was because I believed it would be easier on my body than agility (this was pre-lucy). The next weekend after my decision, I was working Kylie on sheep, and the sheep took exception and rammed be breaking my leg and tearing the meniscus. Yeah, bad, and it was not even a BIG hit.

Safety for dogs, sheep and people is so oft overlooked, it can't be underscored enough- you are right Becca. To this day, I am ALWAYS on the lookout for potential danger...

Julie

 

Okay. So, couple things here.

This is an understandable observation, and is a belief that is held by many of those same "other" breed owners and trainers. After many years of watching and even working with, personally, "other" breed, I believe it is not only incorrect to believe this, but does the dogs a huge disservice.

 

No matter whether you are approaching a set of sheep with a Border Collie or a Bouvier des Flanders, there are certain basics that must happen in order for the stock to be comfortable. Without these basics, you must set up a highly structured, artifical environment with trained sheep, tiny courses, and very slack expectations about how to get from point A to point B.

 

I have seen excellent work on the part of Aussies, Beardies, Shelties, Bouviers, Collies, English Shepherds, and even a Rottweiller. I've seen amazingly great potential in numerous breeds, including a Border Jack (3/4 JACK!). If they can do it, why do we have to lower our expectations for any other individual in these breeds?

 

I'm a wretchedly imcompetant trainer, but I've used the method that I've been taught all along, on many of these breeds, and the only place they fail, most of the time, is in sustaining interest long enough to overcome my clumsy corrections. I've seen Jack Knox and the late Steve Clendenin work with many different breeds, and I've seen an Aussie trainer who used methods similiar to Jack's.

 

Yup, there's some bombs in there, but there's very very few dogs who couldn't be taught, if they were interested enough, to circle both ways, walk behind some dog broke sheep, and even hold a bit of pressure. Heck, my Finnish spitz mix does that. What sets the Border Collie apart is what comes next, working at great distances on difficult stock - but why sell any dog short before it's even tried?

 

What's my point? We don't criticize these methods because they apply to "different" dogs - we criticize them because they lead to a dead end in training, one that no dog deserves, and certainly not a purpose-bred Border Collie.

 

Hmm. OK, second point, I'll try not to be so wordy (lol). The problem with the "sheep as toys" mindset is that sheep AND people AND dogs can get hurt, bad, bad, bad hurt. I think I need more bads. Bad BAD BAD BAD BAD - hurt. Not good English but you get my point, I imagine.

 

I had a sheep die on me my last clinic - first time that had ever happened in any training done here - it was not anyone's fault but ours but it wasn't fun for anyone, the sheep in particular. I was in too big a hurry and marked a pregnant ewe to go in with the clinic sheep. I still wince every time I see her twin sister out there with her two little lambs (ok, not so little now).

 

Anyway, even little sheep can pack quite a punch if they head straight for your knee with a dog in full prey chase mode behind them. I could go on and on about things that can happen but I'll spare you.

 

This is the stuff we deal with every day, so it's second nature and sometimes we do forget to warn people about this side of it. It's easy to assume that people see stock the same way we do, and it's rather shocking when it's evident that they do not.

 

Third point. You are correct in that the trialing atmosphere is both warmer and more serious than dog games. Think of why this is. How these dogs perform is not just relevant to whether you Q that day or not. It might show up a potential problem that means years of training is for nothing.

 

It's not just about you and your dog, that day, but about your stock back home, how you farm, your breeding (if you bred your dog), your training - it's all on the line in a way that dog sports just don't touch. There's greater highs and far more heartbreak on that field than you'll ever find in an obedience ring, agility course, or flyball lane. When you go out there as a major player, it's for real.

[juliepoudrier]

2) It seems worrisomely easy for sheep (or other livestock) to become the living equivalent of agility obstacles when the primary purpose is recreational stock--what, work? play?. Which is not to say that the sheep are necessarily harmed by this--it's more of a moral or ethical issue.

I'm wondering if I missed some of the threads that spawned this latest discussion, but at any rate I did want to comment on this particular point of Robin's. Nothing upsets me more than stock owners who have no real concern for their stock--seeing them as just a necessary "evil" that must exist if one wants to train dogs to work them. A moral and ethical issue indeed.

 

It would be nice of all owners of livestock being used to train dogs seriously considered the welfare of that stock above everything else. That doesn't mean the animals never get worked or never get hurt--or that one must be out there "beating" youngsters or newbie dogs off them with any and all weapons imaginable, but that their welfare is always at the forefront of the trainer's/dog owner's mind. Anything less is deliberate cruelty. I am very selective about who gets to work my stock for that reason. My sheep have another purpose (or purposes) here than just as something on which to train my dogs. That is, the fact that I can train dogs on them is a bonus, but it's not their reason for existing. But even if it was the sole reason they were here, their care and well being would still come first. After all, trialing, especially from the hobbyist viewpoint, but really any and all trialing, is not critical to *our* survival as a species and therefore it shouldn't be necessary to sacrifice animals that have no say in the matter in order to win a pretty ribbon or a bit of money, or even a title. And this includes sheep used at trials, especially in the summer, and re-run numerous times in order to accommodate all the trial entries.

 

Oh and regarding the comments of training loose-eyed vs. other types of dogs (i.e., those with eye)--the argument falls apart when one considers that working-bred border collies come in a range from practically no eye all the way up to too much eye. Everyone has a preference along that scale, and many folks deliberately choose loose-eyed dogs because they are somewhat easier to micromanage on a trial field. I prefer a dog with more eye, but if I had a loose-eyed dog in the kennel, I would approach its training in the same general way as all my other dogs (i.e., teach the dog to think) and then adjust for the *individual dog's* needs, not for the fact that it is either loose-eyed or not.

 

Just my two cents, FWIW.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Oh and regarding the comments of training loose-eyed vs. other types of dogs (i.e., those with eye)--the argument falls apart when one considers that working-bred border collies come in a range from practically no eye all the way up to too much eye. Everyone has a preference along that scale, and many folks deliberately choose loose-eyed dogs because they are somewhat easier to micromanage on a trial field. I prefer a dog with more eye, but if I had a loose-eyed dog in the kennel, I would approach its training in the same general way as all my other dogs (i.e., teach the dog to think) and then adjust for the *individual dog's* needs, not for the fact that it is either loose-eyed or not.

 

Just my two cents, FWIW.

 

J.

 

Yes, based on yours and Becca's comments (and a little further study), I believe I was just wrong about my hard-won realization concerning eye... . I think that struck me because I"ve generally only seen the kind of training that was being illustrated in the pictures collies4me posted and the video from rainierlass with trainers who primarily worked with breeds other than border collies--but I drew the wrong conclusion. ah well--not the first time that's happened, but almost certainly the last

[juliepoudrier]

Yes, based on yours and Becca's comments (and a little further study), I believe I was just wrong about my hard-won realization concerning eye... . I think that struck me because I"ve generally only seen the kind of training that was being illustrated in the pictures collies4me posted and the video from rainierlass with trainers who primarily worked with breeds other than border collies--but I drew the wrong conclusion. ah well--not the first time that's happened, but almost certainly the last

 

Robin,

I think a better conclusion would be that trainers of other breeds" are often working with dogs who have been bred for something other than work for a long time and because those dogs still retain only some parts of their stockworking ability, or maybe even most of the ability but not in the "normal" proportions (because breeding selected away from that, as we've discussed here before) and so they (the trainers) have to compensate for what's not *in* the dog with gimmicks. etc. When you're starting out with dogs who have lost some or most of the innate ability to read and work stock because of selective breeding for something else, it becomes more of a challenge to get those dogs working, hence all the training extras. (Conversely, a trainer should be able to take a well-bred working border collies, whether loose-eyed or not, and use the same basic training techniques on them, sans gimmicks and implements....). JMO of course.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Ditto what Julie said!

A

[kelpiegirl]

Here is a link to an 8 week old Kelpie puppy on sheep for the first time...

 

 

[PSmitty]

What a cool little pup!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

dogs who have been bred for something other than work for a long time and because those dogs still retain only some parts of their stockworking ability, or maybe even most of the ability but not in the "normal" proportions (because breeding selected away from that, as we've discussed here before) and so they (the trainers) have to compensate for what's not *in* the dog with gimmicks. etc.

 

That's really funny because Robin and I had a private discussion where we were talking about exactly this point. When you start working with dogs with some of the pieces missing, that's when you have to adjust your approach and possibly even your expectations. It can happen with any dog, though Border Collies as a breed are more consistent in what you can expect because of the way they've been bred for so long. But I even gave the example of Border Collies (mine) with serious pieces missing and exactly how that affected their training and their potetential.

[kelpiegirl]

I thought it was pretty darn neat myself- very neat puppy.

Julie

 

What a cool little pup!

[Pippin's person]

That's really funny because Robin and I had a private discussion where we were talking about exactly this point. When you start working with dogs with some of the pieces missing, that's when you have to adjust your approach and possibly even your expectations. It can happen with any dog, though Border Collies as a breed are more consistent in what you can expect because of the way they've been bred for so long. But I even gave the example of Border Collies (mine) with serious pieces missing and exactly how that affected their training and their potetential.

 

Yes--and now I face a new quandary--which is the thought that my special, special border collies might not be special in the way I thought (as a breed rather than due to their breeding and other factors--if that makes sense).

 

Actually this entire part of the discussion--concerning breed categorization in relation to stockwork--has been really interesting. One of the things that I have been somewhat uncomfortable with since we got Pippin was the whole notion of "purebred"--having done a lot of reading on the historical and sociocultural development of dogs and "breeds", I've had a kind of nagging unease with the whole enterprise--and yet have fully believed that it matters in some way that my dogs are border collies and not something else. To my own great surprise, I think I may be shifting that position.

 

Although it kind of feels like my brain is turning inside out, thinking of stockdogs somewhat independently of breeds moves into a whole new realm. I suspect it's not all that different from many of the social categories we use for people that on closer inspection turn out not to be true categories at all in the sense that there are no specific characteristics that will 100% distinguish membership in the category--rather it's all much fuzzier than that.

 

So, is a way out of the problematic divergence between working border collies and pet/sport/conformation border collies to disengage from the discussions about what constitutes the "border collie"? Should working border collies just be called/considered stockdogs (or not as the case may be)?

 

Not sure where this kind of thinking goes (or if I agree with some of the implications that I can imagine), but I'm curious about other folks' thoughts.

 

Robin (who hits send with some admitted trepidation)

[Pippin's person]

Here is a link to an 8 week old Kelpie puppy on sheep for the first time...

 

That was really neat to see

[kelpiegirl]

Look ma! no rake

Julie

 

That was really neat to see

[PSmitty]

Yes--and now I face a new quandary--which is the thought that my special, special border collies might not be special in the way I thought (as a breed rather than due to their breeding and other factors--if that makes sense).

 

Actually this entire part of the discussion--concerning breed categorization in relation to stockwork--has been really interesting. One of the things that I have been somewhat uncomfortable with since we got Pippin was the whole notion of "purebred"--having done a lot of reading on the historical and sociocultural development of dogs and "breeds", I've had a kind of nagging unease with the whole enterprise--and yet have fully believed that it matters in some way that my dogs are border collies and not something else. To my own great surprise, I think I may be shifting that position.

 

Although it kind of feels like my brain is turning inside out, thinking of stockdogs somewhat independently of breeds moves into a whole new realm. I suspect it's not all that different from many of the social categories we use for people that on closer inspection turn out not to be true categories at all in the sense that there are no specific characteristics that will 100% distinguish membership in the category--rather it's all much fuzzier than that.

 

So, is a way out of the problematic divergence between working border collies and pet/sport/conformation border collies to disengage from the discussions about what constitutes the "border collie"? Should working border collies just be called/considered stockdogs (or not as the case may be)?

 

Not sure where this kind of thinking goes (or if I agree with some of the implications that I can imagine), but I'm curious about other folks' thoughts.

 

Robin (who hits send with some admitted trepidation)

 

Ok, now *that* makes my head spin. Good food for thought, but I think I may have to read it again....Curious to hear more, too.

[DixiesDad]

Quote " I can easily understand how people who feel proud and excited about their dogs' early looks at sheep feel hurt and chastised when various issues are pointed out."

 

I just wanted to point out that sometimes it can be a case of frustration that causes the adverse reactions. The person has sought out ( maybe on several peoples advice ) a trainer that they can feel comfortable with and trust their dog to. When they post their proud moments they get an avalance of advice which sometimes will contradict what their chosen trainer is telling them. They're unsure of which way to go that will be the best for their Border Collie and let's face it some of us are very protective of our kids ( that especially includes me ). It would be great if the poster would realize that all the replies are an attempt to help, but sometimes at the moment that's hard for some people to accept but I believe that after time allows a slower review of what was offered that most people benefit from it. In my pitiful way I'm trying to say for those who have the expertise not to stop offering advice. Even if at the moment it seems a waste of time. There is someone out there that you are reaching. There's a person out there that will read your thoughts and really look at what you've said. They will consider it and then decide if it applies to them and their BC. They may adopt it completely, modify it, or reject it as not for them; but they will have listened.

 

Now as far as I'm concerned, if you feel I need guidance or correction, have at it. For 30 years I judged horseshows and ya'll are pushovers compared to a 4H Momma on the rampage. "Yes maam I recognize the ROM, Superior AQHA Gelding your child is riding. Yes maam I know you must have paid a bundle. Yes maam you told me who junior's trainer is. But Maam he fell off the horse.

[sandra s.]

"Yes maam I recognize the ROM, Superior AQHA Gelding your child is riding. Yes maam I know you must have paid a bundle. Yes maam you told me who junior's trainer is. But Maam he fell off the horse.

 

 

As for these issues:

 

I can easily understand how people who feel proud and excited about their dogs' early looks at sheep feel hurt and chastised when various issues are pointed out.

 

Maybe this is a good place to say "Thanks!" to those who tried to help me and Kessie with our own go at sheep.

 

After reading these debates, I feel the need to point out that I have been treated extremely well during our own hobby herding experience! Yes, I did know how ramshackle the whole thing was and how far away from most BC Boarders' training methods we were. AND we did it purely hobby-wise to boot. It must have been groan-worthy enough for the more serious folks.

But all I got on these boards was good advice, encouragement, and a few careful question marks concerning the methods and set-up...If our trainer had been less fanatic about her own methods, OR if I had the diplomatic talent (groan) needed to suggest changes to someone like her, we could have put that advice to good use. If anyone rolled their eyes, they did it in silence (and I can't say I never roll mine, so that's okay, too ).

 

So, concerning pet dog folks' complaints about the "other side"...I have experienced the opposite, and if I ever do roll my eyes at the ways of working dog folks, it will probably NOT be about their treatment of hobby herders. Thanks!