How do I know she likes agility?

[RaisingRiver]

How do I know River likes agility? She doesn't hone into it like she does playing fetch. Although her obedience and attentiveness to me is 2nd to none - which of course was specifically trained for agility. But does she like it? I would think she would LOVE flyball (since she runs full speed for a ball/frisbee) - but I'm not sure I would as it's not as interactive.

 

The biggest thing for me is I'm very competitive and get easily frustrated. To say I was happy about our performan, I ce at our first trial would be a lie. Yes, we Q'd 6/7, but one wasn't clean and all of them were a slow pace. So I'm not ecstatic but I'm aware of our abilities vs. the time we take to train (which isn't a lot). Do I want to go to Nationals? no way. But I want to kick butt locally - and I want my dog to run faster then I can - which I realize is a lot about how I train her and we'll get there. I know a lot more about how to train dogs then actually applying it to my own dogs (ie. lazy trainer). So, yeah, I know if I spend more time working with her we can get to a better level. But should I?

 

She would MUCH prefer to chase a ball/frisbee. As we walk out to the obstacles at my house she usually goes and gets her soccer ball and I have to tell her no, we're not doing that right now. I have used a tennis ball as her reward instead of just treats - for which she'll blast through (literally through sometimes) obstacles knowing she'll get the ball at the end. So I know it's a powerful training tool for her.

 

I want us to both be happy and I certainly do NOT want to get mad or frustrated at my dog over a 'game'.

 

So, how do you know?

[Guest CleverDog]

ETA: Sorry, when I wrote this, I missed the part where you said she was very attentive and focused. Maybe you just need to work on her drive and speed, and translate the enthusiasm she has for the ball over to agility, since she already has the focus?

 

I have golden retrievers and they are always happy : ). Caper though, saw agility as 'work' at first...which was fine, but I wanted him to have fun too. As a puppy, he was very soft and easily disappointed if I even hinted that something went wrong. I just worked a lot, lot, lot of making the game fun for him, and making sure that nothing he ever did was wrong. That doesn't sound at all like your situation, but I just wanted to say, I know where you are coming from, because I too am very competitive! What worked for us is breaking things down into very small steps. So --if she blasts through a bar going for the ball, can you take her outside, and just do around 10 "good" jumps a day? Clicking for not dropping the bar, and she gets the ball for keeping her head. (Does she know how to jump already?) And then, when you start getting 10 jumps in a row, that are good ---I don't know about you, but I would think of that as an amazing accomplishment! So, instead of thinking of it as, winning, or losing, or not doing so well as someone else...just make small goals. Once you build up all these little goals, and accomplish them...then one time, you'll look around, and see you've come so far from where you started.

 

Can you also work on focus games with her? I can't think of any off the top of my head but I'm sure people around here have some good ideas...

 

I find that you don't have to train all the time to get better, just little tiny pieces that take time to eventually come together. I'm not sure if it's a matter of River not liking agility, most of my dogs would pick throwing the ball over agility any time, because they get it for free. I feel like Caper enjoys agility now, because he loves to do things right, and that I get excited when he does makes him happy. Plus, it gives him something to think about.

 

I also felt for awhile, that Caper was slow. How silly of me! He just needed more training, to become more confident in where he steps, and I needed to learn how to handle him, because I wasn't used to a border collie, only golden retrievers. Maybe if you stopped trialing for awhile, and worked on some small goals, that would help both of you a lot. Set up a jump and tunnel and work for a little bit on driving to the tunnel and over the jump. Then you can add more complicated things piece by piece. This helped Caper to gain speed a lot, as he gained confidence in starting out simply, and then getting slightly harder when I felt as if we had the exercise down.

 

Can you pick the soccer ball up before you take River outside? Maybe do some focusing exercises before you start so that she understands this is 'work'?

 

I hope I made sense, or helped you in any way --it's just that I too am very competitive and understand where you are coming from. I have to take myself out of a situation where I will get frustrated, because the only reason Caper would do something 'wrong' is because I'm not being clear in my criteria, or skipping steps, and expecting him to be able to do certain handling situations just because he can do other ones. The he gets slow, and obviously does not have fun...which hopefully stopped happening a looooong time ago. By doing little things, I get really happy when we accomplish them, and also by doing that, it works really great for the 'big picture', because, it's like having a piece of a puzzle done, and then one day recognizing that puzzle, but you already have the piece and know where it goes.

 

Oh jeez, I think I just completely rambled, I hope I made sense....btw the way Caper LOVES flyball, because his brain can turn off and he can just go. I'm not as into it, though! Do you have any videos from your first trial?

[RaisingRiver]

Thanks CD.

 

River knows all her basics, jumps, etc. She never knocks a bar unless we're only doing a couple of jumps and she KNOWS the ball is coming. She also memorizes what we're doing, I figured out yesterday. I had her do a 4 jump series in like an arc and then I moved a jump out of the arc, but left the wings where they were and started her again. She ran right through the jumpless wings in the wrong direction (twice!) and then expected the ball which of course she did not get. So now I'll have to mix it up every run.

 

I DO think she needs more confidence and obstacle discrimination. I know more then she does at this point. I also want to stop talking because that might be slowing her down - I think she's waiting for me to say each name before she commits.

 

I can pick up the soccer ball first. She does like being with me - and working.

 

I do have a video of one of our runs - Fullhouse. But camera is currently out of town so I'll get it up when I can.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

I don't have much to say about whether or not your dog likes what you ask her to do. I can tell if my dogs like to do something by the enthusiasm with which they do it.

 

But I do have to comment on flyball...

 

Flyball is certainly an interactive sport if you like competing as a team and not alone. I like doing both sometimes. You get great satisfaction out of achieving something great as a one-on-one pair in agility...but...

 

The party is much more fun if you have an entire team to celebrate with after a huge accomplishment! We all have differing opinions, but I find sharing a party with great friends and toasting our accomplishments to be much more exciting than getting a pat on the back from teammates and then going home to order a pizza for myself.

[RaisingRiver]

One quick thought - River knows when we've pulled up to the agility barn we train at. She's very excited and eager to get inside. She likes to get to business right away. But in general, 'excited River' is a pretty calm dog and very focused. She was never the rambunctious puppy or unwieldy teen.

 

So maybe I just need to pay more attention so I can read her better.

 

 

RMG- Yah, I'm not really a team player, lol.

[Guest CleverDog]

I have not competed in a flyball tournament -- I didn't think about that aspect. I think I would like that part!

 

River sounds like Caper. He was never a rambunctious puppy either. I never had to proof him in different environments, because he never got overstimulated in them. Excited Caper, which is excited to me, is definitely not as excited I was used to from other dogs, and may not be for other people either!

 

Funny, Caper memorizes sequences too! I had to really switch things up to make sure he was paying attention to me. (Me: "Um, Caper...?" Caper, going the opposite direction: "Don't worry, I've got this, we've done it before!") These dogs are too smart!

 

I think you are right on what you need to work on. Once she gains confidence, I'm sure she will speed up. If she already knows how to jump, then you just need to work on drive and speed, and she may have to learn adjust her jumping as her speed increases. I remember being disappointed when I realized the AKC changed the trialing age from 12 mo. to 15 --I would have gone to a trial. I'm so glad they changed it, because that would have been stupid of me, as Caper is so much more confident and faster now than a couple of months ago. Do you have a partner you can train with? I unfortunately don't here, but I think it helps a lot because you can play games and offer suggestions to each other. Also, do you know someone with a more experienced dog you can run once? I tried that --it showed me, through what her dog knew, what I needed to work on with mine, and where we could eventually get : )

 

If you say "gogogo!" and get excited on a straight line, does she go faster? Caper loves that, he dropped bars the first time but now he understands.

 

It would be fun to see the run on video!

[RaisingRiver]

I just confirmed that the camera is supposed to fly home tonight, so maybe i can get something up within the day - soon as I learn how - I have a MAC so it shouldn't be too hard

[Rosanne]

I don't use treats for agility. Only for very basic shaping behavior. Once they get the basics I change over to a motivating toy.

 

If she speeds up for the ball, why not use that? I always use toys as I feel it brings out the enthusiasm in my dogs and they really enjoy working for it. I usually use tug toys but I have a student whose dog LOVES the soccer ball too. She runs her dog (a working-bred BC), then they both run and get the soccer ball and leave the building to play outside. Works great! If your trainer (or something in your own mind) suggests that you limit reward to food, don't listen. Heck, half the time my dogs don't even WANT food in agility. They get annoyed, like "what the $%#^$% is this??? I want to GO!

 

As far as whether she likes it or not - Does she look happy doing it? I see lots of dogs running at trials who will never win Nationals, but look happy to be doing something worthwhile with their owners.

 

 

As far as building motivation, I think you are right on about stepping back to a lower level class. Easier/shorter sequences with a powerful, exciting reward (more than just food - food is BLAH!). If she knocks the bars at first, who cares. I don't correct slow or soft dogs for that until/unless it really becomes a problem.

 

If your trainer won't let you work on this in particular I'd suggest some privates with a new trainer, or maybe renting some ring time to work on it by yourself without the stress of a class to deal with.

[MaggieDog]

I have a slow dog who was trained accuracy first, speed second and thus she is clean but over SCT in every run. We Q'd in pairs this past weekend, but NQ'd due to time in snooker and jumpers (we show USDAA P1). I've determined that Maggie's lack of speed is due to this whole "train accuracy first" thing - she's a BC/ACD mix and thus takes what she sees as a job very seriously; add that to a very soft dog and you have an animal that is very careful to do things right and very concerned that she doesn't cause any sort of dissapointment/frustration in her handler - just an intake of breath or change in body posture can slow her down on course.

 

Given that, Maggie still appears to enjoy trialling and working with me, we just need to teach her to add speed in. I highly recommend "Click and Play Agility" - it's the BEST $30 I've ever spent on an agility book and it really turns some of the common training ideas on their head (i.e. train speed and accuracy at the SAME time, proof each obstacle, back chain contacts, practice obstacle performance with you acting silly or purposely falling to proof for that, teach the dog to follow you outside of the ring first, don't cheerlead, etc.).

[Kat's Dogs]

It may sound strange, but sometimes you have to train the dog to like it.

 

Peanut (fuzz ball full of attitude) did NOT like agility. She just didn't enjoy it at all. But I got what she really loved (cheese) and went back to basic training (like calling over a straight line of jumps, calling over a really really low aframe, calling through a straight tunnel) and took really small steps. Rewarding a lot if she went fast, just saying a calm "good girl." if she did it slow. We took really small steps with all the equipment and only increased the difficulty if she was running full speed and having FUN. Now, she loves agility (mind you, even her trainer had said she was hopeless and wasn't going to go faster - HA!).

 

USE the ball! Hold her back and throw it over a line of jumps (sort of like flyball ) and let her run full tilt. run beside her (or best you can!) then start running and only throwing the ball a few jumps in. Throw the ball over a dogwalk, over aframes, through tunnels, whatever. If that is what she loves, use it. Some dogs come with the enthusiasm for agility, others need a little help to get there - so it is our job to make it fun for them, and it isn't too hard to do that.

 

And as was said, when you are working on speed/drive don't try to fix any other problem (knocked bars, a missed contact, a run by jump, etc) just GO GO GO!!! Keep her speedy and excited the whole time. If she doesn't think it is fun, then you need to adjust your training so that it IS fun. And not just the "yeah, this is fun" kind of fun - but the "let me go! let me run! come on mom! Let's GO!" kind of fun.

[Rosanne]

I have a slow dog who was trained accuracy first, speed second and thus she is clean but over SCT in every run. We Q'd in pairs this past weekend, but NQ'd due to time in snooker and jumpers (we show USDAA P1). I've determined that Maggie's lack of speed is due to this whole "train accuracy first" thing - she's a BC/ACD mix and thus takes what she sees as a job very seriously; add that to a very soft dog and you have an animal that is very careful to do things right and very concerned that she doesn't cause any sort of dissapointment/frustration in her handler - just an intake of breath or change in body posture can slow her down on course.

 

Given that, Maggie still appears to enjoy trialling and working with me, we just need to teach her to add speed in. I highly recommend "Click and Play Agility" - it's the BEST $30 I've ever spent on an agility book and it really turns some of the common training ideas on their head (i.e. train speed and accuracy at the SAME time, proof each obstacle, back chain contacts, practice obstacle performance with you acting silly or purposely falling to proof for that, teach the dog to follow you outside of the ring first, don't cheerlead, etc.).

 

 

Sounds like a worthwhile book!

 

I never understood that train accuracy first camp. Some dogs don't just magically pick up speed later!

Susan Garrett always put Drive first, and while I have never been a devoted follower of anybody, I have to agree that the dog's drive (or their wanting to 'play' with you) HAS to come first.

 

I teach my puppies later than most how to do obstacles, because I spend their puppy-hood on stay, recall, singe jump exercises, all designed to get the dog to DRIVE to me and play. Best exercise ever? Send the dog to a jump, and when they turn over it run away and play when they catch you. I won't progress until they start playing HARD.

 

Good Luck guys - it does sound like River enjoys herself, and Maggie too.

I had a slow dog once who, unfortunately, only enjoyed himself in the backyard. I retired him quickly from showing (he was an Aussie or aussie-mix) and he became my dad's best friend. So have fun together and be happy.

 

P.S. I'm really competitive too! Small steps! You'll get there.

I don't know how your relationship with your trainer is, but if you're not progressing don't be afraid to try someone else, or think for yourself! I see way too many people following trainers who don't help them for way too long (hopefully not you, but I don't know!)

[MrSnappy]

The biggest thing for me is I'm very competitive and get easily frustrated. To say I was happy about our performan, I ce at our first trial would be a lie. Yes, we Q'd 6/7, but one wasn't clean and all of them were a slow pace.

 

Ah, how the grass is always greener ...

 

At our last trial Tweed ran a Masters Standard course 20 seconds under time, but it didn't do me any good as he popped a dogwalk contact so no Q for me. I have never Q'd 6 out of 7 runs in a trial in my life ... my dog runs fast and I can't always control him. We didn't get the gamble, he rocketed into the wrong tunnel in Team and Steeplechase was ... well. I may as well have shredded my $60.00 entry into my salad! It's been 18 months without a Q for us and it's really frustrating no matter how fast he is!

 

I'd take some accuracy over some of his speed any day. And we do not discuss Piper and agility.

 

As for whether she enjoys it or not ... if she is not shutting down, I doubt she hates it. I have seen dogs who hate agility (Toby the Golden, Caliber the Jack) and it's painfully obvious.

 

I'm with you about flyball though. I ran on a team for a long time and while it's fun and timing your passes and all that is challenging ... it's still just your dog running down a lane of jumps. Agility is a lot more about a partnership. And working stock is something else altogether.

 

When they invent a sport that involves a live squirrel, Woo's going to play that. Actually, I would love to find lure coursing in my area - Woo would love it! He can run REALLY fast. Deceptive little bastard.

 

When I first started trialing Tweed, he could often be found slinking under jumps when he noticed The Scary Judge in the ring. It took him a while to find his own in agility. He loves it now, but I'm not sure he loved for the first year or so.

 

RDM

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

I see lots of dogs running at trials who will never win Nationals, but look happy to be doing something worthwhile with their owners.

 

And I've seen just as many who have that look on their face like "Are we done yet?" as they run the course. There are a handful of both out there and it really just irks me to see a dog in competition when I can just tell the dog would really rather be doing something else but is merely entertaining it's owner by playing along.

 

In regard to not being a team player...I was NEVER a team player (and I am still not in anything except flyball) and actually found flyball with a mediocre club to be more frustrating than enjoyable. Once I joined a highly competitive club, it started to be FUN to be part of a club and work together because everyone on the club had the same attitude as I did about the sport.

 

I think if I had a dog who could never finish under SCT in agility, that would make me mad enough to not want to continue. I am pretty competitive and I like to be good at what I do. Whether or not my dog likes to do the sport is sort of irrelevant to me if the dog just isn't really that good at it. That doesn't mean I hate my dog or get rid of it. It just means we don't do that sport because it would make me mad at the dog for not being good enough. It's better for both of us if we just choose something else to do.

 

In regard to speed, you ought to be able to teach that after (or rather, separately and then put the two together) proficiency of the obstacles is mastered. That's really the ideal way to do it. First, teach the dog what to do and THEN ask for speed while doing it. Yes, drive is a good thing and I teach it from Day 1 of owning a dog. Right now I have a dog that is driven out the wazzoo and is in the process of learning a boxturn for flyball. She fully understands that the quicker she is on and off the box, the quicker she gets her tug. She's got no drive issues at all. But we have had to take a step back and slow her down, ask her for a proper turn and then reward her. Once she has the turn down properly, we'll allow her to go for speed again. But asking her for a speedy 2-footed turn would only end up in disaster later when what we want is a speedy 4-footed turn. A speedy 2-footed turn may look fast now but if we slow down and train her properly, her 4-footed turn will eventually be even faster.

 

Some dogs are just not motivated to do much of anything, though, and that would just be frustrating for me to work with a dog like that. I commend those of you that can!!

[Rosanne]

And I've seen just as many who have that look on their face like "Are we done yet?" as they run the course.

 

 

Ouch! I saw plenty at a local USDAA trial this last weekend.

Usually over-weight, non-working type breeds (there's a few BC's that meet this description, but not a lot), with handlers who don't seem to have a clue...

 

I was just mentioning it to put it out there that a dog doesn't necessarily need to run balls to the wall to be having a good time. :-)

 

I don't think I could stop my one dog from running that way with a brick wall. . . . and no, he's not THE most consistent dog ever, but he's getting better. My 2-year old girl started out mediocre-speed, and I actually entered a few jumpers classes in trials before she was ready otherwise because other dogs running excited her. Well, it definitely got her going. Now she's QUITE fast at trials and beats other fast BC's in her class by 3 seconds (she's still in Advanced - dropped ONE BAR yesterday or she'd be in Masters. Oh well.) She's also really SOFT and will shut down if corrected too harshly, so I have to take a fun attitude with her. It's a delicate balance. My male. . . well like I said, bricks probably wouldn't slow him down. He had the fastest times in several classes over the weekend (he jumps 26" but regularly beats all the 22" dogs' times), but only once was he clean, so those other times didn't really matter!

Of course when he's clean, it's a thing of beauty, and THAT's why I love the way he runs!

[Barb Scott]

How do I know River likes agility? She doesn't hone into it like she does playing fetch. Although her obedience and attentiveness to me is 2nd to none - which of course was specifically trained for agility. But does she like it? I would think she would LOVE flyball (since she runs full speed for a ball/frisbee) - but I'm not sure I would as it's not as interactive.

 

The biggest thing for me is I'm very competitive and get easily frustrated. To say I was happy about our performan, I ce at our first trial would be a lie. Yes, we Q'd 6/7, but one wasn't clean and all of them were a slow pace. So I'm not ecstatic but I'm aware of our abilities vs. the time we take to train (which isn't a lot). Do I want to go to Nationals? no way. But I want to kick butt locally - and I want my dog to run faster then I can - which I realize is a lot about how I train her and we'll get there. I know a lot more about how to train dogs then actually applying it to my own dogs (ie. lazy trainer). So, yeah, I know if I spend more time working with her we can get to a better level. But should I?

 

She would MUCH prefer to chase a ball/frisbee. As we walk out to the obstacles at my house she usually goes and gets her soccer ball and I have to tell her no, we're not doing that right now. I have used a tennis ball as her reward instead of just treats - for which she'll blast through (literally through sometimes) obstacles knowing she'll get the ball at the end. So I know it's a powerful training tool for her.

 

I want us to both be happy and I certainly do NOT want to get mad or frustrated at my dog over a 'game'.

 

So, how do you know?

My husband's ADCH (USDAA) Blaze didn't like agility at all, but he loved the play with the frisbee when he finished the course. Once we discovered what motivated him, he was on his way to agility success.

Barb S

[Root Beer]

I was having trouble with Maddie being unenthusiastic about the agility exercises. In fact, back in December I almost pulled her out of class. She kept "quitting" in the middle of a course to run over to socialize on the sidelines!! She just had no interest!

 

Our instructor changed the format of the class after that, and we each got part of the class time to work on individual pieces of equipment. What I did with Maddie was to make each piece of equipment highly rewarding. With her, food is the HUGE motivator. If it had been a toy, I would have used that. So, for the jump, I would send her over, click as she went over, and met her with a treat when she was finished. Gradually I added distance and faded the click. And lo and behold, she was soon jumping very happily.

 

Recently we did a course again for the first time since then and she stayed with me and was very happy to run the course.

 

What I would do with River, is start with a jump in the yard and have just one ball out. I would cue the jump and as he went over, I would say "yes!" (or something!) and throw the ball. I would do this over and over and over and then switch to another piece of equipment (say, a tire). After doing this with the tire, I would put both pieces of equipment out and do the same thing, but cue both pieces before throwing the ball.

 

After making each piece of equipment rewarding, I would start to expect more.

 

Maddie just did a small course for the very first time ever without food the other night. It took months of training in little pieces, but she can do it now.

 

She doesn't really love agility, but she does love to work as a team with me. Now that each piece of equipment has become very rewarding, she is doing much better.

[RaisingRiver]

Thanks for all the replies. The ball is her best motivator and I've been using it at home and in class. At home is working best so far but I think it's because she only does like 5 obstacles (it's all I have) at a time - then gets the ball. She BLASTS through her channels weaves inappropriately but I definitely get speed.

 

The camera didnt make it home today after all, so no vid until next week.

 

She doesn't shut down, so I guess we'll assume she likes it.

 

My trainers are awesome, I think. I've been with them my entire agility 'career' (3 years starting 3 dogs). Right now I only have 1 of the two ladies - and they are very supportive. I have yet to find major fault with their methods. I can also pretty much do whatever I want in the class, since they trust my abilities as a trainer. It's just working with my 'novice' dog that I have to keep in mind.

 

Running a seasoned dog would be very cool I think. I think it would remind me that *I* have skills too

 

I have class tomorrow and I'm going to see if I can find room in the lower level class. Where we run shorter courses and work on specific drills. Diesel will be starting beginner class soon. I have discovered he LOVES squeaky toys and will actually FETCH them!! I do like to use treats for agility - since my non-BC is not at all toy motivated, but very food motived. Diesel is also VERY food motived.

[Guest CleverDog]

I didn't know you had a third dog! Ha, I guess because this is the BC Boards...I keep getting surpised when people have other dogs! Jaida is so cute, I looked at her page...but I still Deisel the best...

 

Have fun tomorrow!