When the HUMAN part of the team is doesn't have it?

[kelpiegirl]

Okay, so I think I know my problem. It is me, and my relationship with my dog. She can be amazing on sheep, and is getting better and better, but that isn't without me having to remind her who is boss. She does not commence any shenanigans with my trainer. The thing is, I am soft. I am not used to having to give corrections, and getting on her like I must. She is very very very keen, and will bounce back out of a correction, looking for those sheep. When she and I are a working team, it is a very very nice thing. But, I am having to come to terms with how to change MY attitude, and MY outlook, so that from the start of the lesson, we are in the groove. I wouldn't change anything about her- she is a great working dog- BUT perhaps too good for me...

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks

Julie

[Guest pax]

Heh. Send her to me. I can't shut up.

[G. Festerling]

First thing is that you are already aware of it. Your part that is. Now work on it. It is as simple as that.

I see that with my students all the time.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I am very wishy washy with my actions, so I have a similiar problem to what you describe. I found it came from being too focused on myself. I'm worried about things that don't matter like being afraid of the effect of what I'm going to do, or what others will think.

 

If I'm getting my cues from the dog, I have the confidence to be more positive about corrections and also trusting my dog. When I'm focused on my dog, I'll see immediately if I've made an error and I can adjust immediately. Be positive in your actions, but get out of the way of the dog, let the dog work and prove he's figured it out, immediately. Don't nag, that's the worst (that lesson took me about eight years to figure out).

 

That's not to say you are staring at the dog all the time - it's just being aware of the effect your corrections are having, and whether the work your dog is doing is improving (these two things are seperate - if your correction had a visible effect, it's time to accept whatever your dog offers next). It's the sheep, of course, that tell you whether your dog is right.

 

Try not to overthink things. I seem to remember you haven't been at this very long - you and your dog are both still at the stage where things will change every time. Take things the way a dog takes them, one day at a time, one moment at a time.

[stockdogranch]

You are not alone. Truly--you are not alone. That doesn't make it an easy fix, but, it is probably THE most common issue I have seen with new handlers and their dogs over the years. When people come to working dogs after having had family-type dogs for years, they are just not used to the level of expectancy for both them and their dog. For most people, the dog hangs out in the yard, the family goes out there to play with it some, or even a lot, the dog kinda-sorta comes when it's called, mostly cuz it knows dinner's coming, or some other thing that it wants, etc. And that's Ok for that family and that dog--the dog behaves well enough for what is expected of it. BUT, for a working dog, the level of expectations are so much higher, and at first, it's like learning to speak a new language--just hard to get a grasp of.

 

The fix? The best thing I can offer is consistency--all the time, at home, at the dog park, wherever. The recall, lie down, anywhere and everywhere whenever you say, with no exceptions whatsoever, no matter what. The dog has to feel that you are totally in charge all the time. Think of it as the difference between being a sibling to the dog vs. being the parent. You need to be the parent.

 

Now, that may or may not be the case, but most of the time, there is at least a touch of that going on. But the other thing is this: when your trainer works the dog, not only does the dog understand who's in charge, but the trainer's timing, etc. are right on. So the dog understands that there is really no room for fooling around, or pushing its limits when working. It simply isn't going to get away with it. But in comes the green handler--and, gee, it's way more fun for the dog to get away with little infractions--not lying down right away, or taking the lie down but then popping right back up, or slicing at the top of the gather, or little shark attacks, or whatever its preference for foolishness is. It does those things because it *can*--bacuse the handler doesn't yet know to see those things coming ahead of time and stop them before they happen. The handler's timing just isn't good enough yet.

 

So, you have to step up to the plate, as they say, and try as hard as you can to get that timing down right, as well as being 100% consistent with her 100% of the time. The good news is that she will still work for the trainer--I've seen a LOT of dogs over the years who, given the choice of working for the trainer and doing everything properly, vs. making a game of it with the owner, simply refuse to work for the trainer any more. That makes things really hard. This way, at least the trainer CAN work the dog to make sure it progresses and to keep it from geting into too much of a habit with the shennanigans all the time.

 

Please keep us posted,

Anna

[Marilyn T]

You have a very common problem. Here is a test, that I have seen Alasdair use at clinics. Set up cones about 20-30 yards apart. Stand at the point of the 'triangle', as far away as you can control your dog. Now do figure eights around the cones with your sheep and dog. You will find that if your dog slices, or cuts flanks, or is too pushy, all will go to hell in seconds. Try it for a minute or two. If you don't lose your patience and start getting in stronger corrections you will be the first exception I have ever heard about in this exercise. It will point out many things. Your dog's training. Your dog's reaction time to commands. Your reaction time to flanks, and your training relationship with the dog. Do the figure eights both directions.... towards you in the middle, and away from you in the middle. One works on inside flanks, one on over flanking. Once you get it at that distance, move back, change pressure, tighten up the cones, widen them up. anything goes. I bet you will quickly find the correct attitude towards your dog, and stop being wimpy. The whole deal is usually new trainers are locked into the belief that the dog knows more than they do. Maybe so, but as Jack Knox once said to me, even if you make a mistake and give a wrong command (while training) don't let the dog know you make a mistake. Make them think you meant to say that!!!!!

Good luck, and don't quit.

[Pippin's person]

Nice discussion. No one who read my last postings will be surprised to hear that I have a similar problem. Similar, but not exactly the same--I've gotten more or less used to giving a correction, but I think I have a tendency to fall toward overcorrecting--or rather to correct too harshly for the situation or to correct when it would have been better to let the dog figure it out.

 

I'm willing to accept that this, like all stockwork training, is a matter of continued practice and Zen-like mastery, but are there exercises, similar to what Marilyn mentions, that help with this kind of thing? E.g. with learning when to give the correction that has you walking toward the dog swishing the stick vs. giving the correction that has you saying in a low voice "hey, get out of that" vs. the correction that is just saying the dog's name vs. letting the dog in a sense correct itself.

 

Sometimes I just want to say, AACCKK. But, today, in this most glorious spring weather, out we head to greet the sheep.

[Marilyn T]

I doubt if anyone has a definitive answer to your questions Robin. This is where the ART of dog training takes over for the SCIENCE of dog training. Each dog if different. Each dog will react differently, and each dog has a different base of inborn ability and knowledge. You need to read your dog and feel what the correct amount of correction will be for that circumstance and dog. That said...I will give you my rule of thumb. It is not an absolute, and I might not always adhere to it. Just like household obedience corrections, if you are training a foreign behavior, (say driving) then start with your most gentle corrections. Remember that you are teaching a new task to an infant. Be patient. Ask, don't demand. Be happy with small achievements, and gradually increase your expectations. On the other hand, if you want to eliminate an undesirable behavior (bashing sheep, diving in, cheating on your 'that will do' command,) then come down fairly hard the first time. Make that dog think that doing his undesirable behavior will incur the 'wrath of God' and he might think twice about being a little sh#* again. Save the 'BIG' corrections for truely evil infractions. But... each correction should be geared towards the circumstance as well as the individual. One last point. Corrections should not be ruled by your emotions. Running and chasing usually accomplishes nothing. Lower your voice, growl, become threatening at a distance. Make the dog feel bad about what they did. Once you get a reaction, REMOVE your pressure, showing the dog that when they give, they will be allowed to go back to work. The best dog trainers in this country know not only when and how much to correct, but also when to remove pressure from the dog too. Good luck. Robin is right... really glorious weather today. Go out and train.

[stockdogranch]

Really nice post, Marilyn! Nicely stated, and it seems your rule of thimb is mine, also. I especially agree about not letting emotion rule correction. Even though this can be an extremely frustrating endeavor, you can't let the dog push your buttons, which is sometimes easier said than done. Sometimes we need to just walk away for a few minutes to calm down. And yes, the Zen-like part of it comes from reading the dog and knowing when and how much correction (if any) is needed. Pressure on...pressure off. Kinda like the old "wax on...wax off" thing.

 

Heading back out for more training now

Anna

[G. Festerling]

I reread your question again.

What if the human part of the team doesn't have it?

Then it is up to the human part to use his/her head to make up for some of it. If it is physical, well you know it is going to take longer. If it is mental, same thing. But with plenty of work and help it will get better. And time.

As humans we do have the power do reason and act accordingly if we choose to do so. So if one on the team is suffering from not so much talent it can still be fun and be accomplished but it just may take longer. And it certainly takes an attitude that fits.

[kelpiegirl]

I was at a clinic over the weekend. No, it isn't physical- that would be much easier for me to come to grips with (bad pun I guess). I will update all later today....

Thanks to everyone who wrote- it is MUCH appreciated!

Julie

 

 

I reread your question again.

What if the human part of the team doesn't have it?

Then it is up to the human part to use his/her head to make up for some of it. If it is physical, well you know it is going to take longer. If it is mental, same thing. But with plenty of work and help it will get better. And time.

As humans we do have the power do reason and act accordingly if we choose to do so. So if one on the team is suffering from not so much talent it can still be fun and be accomplished but it just may take longer. And it certainly takes an attitude that fits.

[bcnewe2]

I try to look at corrections as passing information. That way my soft side has no excuse. I don't believe many dogs blow off the handler as much as we newbies think they do, It's lack of proper comunacation. If my dog still isn't getting the proper message I look at what I'm doing beccase I've found it's me who’s confused when I'm passing the information.

 

I just learned this weekend that I was using a lie down to stop Mick from going the wrong way. He'd lie down but pop right back up and continue doing what ever he was doing, It was pointed out to me I wasn't telling him what was wrong. His lie down was right, so he'd go right back to the work that was wrong. “No or NOOOOO” has a great impact on him understanding it’s a bad choice. Lie down (or is that Lie Dune) works great if that’s what I want!

 

It is hard to learn what proper corrections are, so many variations in dogs. I figure if it didn't work the first few times I need to try something else. It's a never ending head game for me.

 

Good luck and hang in there, you'll come along. One bad day leads to a good one. If we have a bad one I console myself that a good one is on the way!

 

Kristen

[kelpiegirl]

Well, I just spent LOTS of hours at a clinic. I watched other dogs work, and worked my girl. I have learned, that I am fighting my dog, and trying to beat her to any number of things. Basically, I was not letting her do her job- just watching her, and swinging around, and basically making a complete mess of things. When I FINALLY worked her with confidence that she could do her part, she was amazing. I also learned some sheep work training ideas, but all in all, the most important thing was that I now know that I can trust her- and should.

Julie

[Pipedream Farm]

I had trouble being too soft as you said when I got started. The best thing my first dog ever did for me as a handler was to knock me flat on my back with the sheep. She then proceeded to literally run right over the top of me to get the sheep. Had I not gotten up quickly, I probably would have been run over by the sheep! All of this happened after I had given her a wimpy "lie down" command (came out more like a request if you know what I mean). After that, it was really clear to me that I needed to get serious about getting a response from her and that the problem was more about me than her. It will get easier for you once you gain more confidence in reading siuations. Good luck!

Renee

[stockdogranch]

Hooray for you!!!! One of my most common remarks is, "trust your dog." Too often, people are so afraid their dog will do some terrible thing that they spend their time "fending off the dog"--getting in between the dog and sheep, fussing at it to lie dow, and thus never letting the dog up to work. Glad you got it straightened out! It's amazing how things change when the dog knows you trust 'em!

Anna