Raw Foods

[Alicia]

So, I've looked over old topics in the board as well as over the internet and still am seeing alot of differences of opinions.

 

Right now I have switched the kids from a crappy kibble to a good kibble and raw diet.

This is what they are getting right now:

1c Kibble, which I am going to be rotating Innova

and Timber Wolf BF.

1/2c ground beef

4X4" strip of honeycomn tripe

1 small chunk of one of the followin (rotating)

liver, gizzards/hearts, sweetbred

1/2c of a mix of finely chopped veggies, brocolli

baby carrots, peppers(rotating red, yellow and

green)

1 egg

1/8 c mixed shredded cheese

1/2 c yogurt

 

I ama lso planning on adding oil as soon as I get some.

 

So, does that sound right? Balanced etc?

 

Here are my other questions...

This is a little more complicated then I thought lol but once I have a meal plan down it'll be fine

 

I've read that veggies should be pureed, is finely chopped (using one of those kitchen aid choppers) into TINY pieces enough to make these digestable enough?

 

I also read that kibble and raw, if feeding both, should be fed seperately as kibble takes longer to digest(up to 24hrs) then raw(4-6hrs). Does this REALLY matter, as I've seen alot of you feed a mix?

 

Also, both of my kids are pretty gassy and Dally had an accident last night in the house and man it smelt TERRIBLE! Is this normal when switching? they've only been on it since yesterday. They just smell TERRIBLE! lol Did I maybe give them too much too soon?

 

Also, Dally's feces today (not the accident in the house but outside later) was.. slimy, had a flimy sort over it, is this because of one of the ingredients? is it bad?

 

Sorry about all the questions but I cant seem to find a real solid answer to any of them

 

I really like having them on it already, they LOVE it and Dally has eaten more in the lsat 2 days then I've been able to get her to eat in ages, I'm just worried about tummies.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Lots of observations and questions here...

 

1) Why ground meat? It provides no dental workout and the risk of it containing higher levels of bacteria is much higher. Get some good old fashioned chicken leg quarters, split breasts or the like and toss those to your pups instead. Chicken is much easier to start with than beef also.

 

2) If you're willing to feed raw, why not make a complete switch?

 

3) Why do you insist on feeding veggies? Dogs do not need them and do not eat them in the wild unless they need to "move things along" if you know what I mean.

 

4) I would not feed honeycomb tripe if you are speaking of the type you buy in the grocery store. It's bleached out and devoid of any nutrients for your pups. Insted, try the canned version called Tripett, which is actually GREEN as tripe should be. "Green" tripe is the term used for unbleached tripe (but it's really green). I bet you can pick it up at the same store you're buying your kibble at.

 

5) Why dairy? It is not species appropriate for dogs. Forget the cottage cheese and yogurt.

 

6) If you switch to a raw diet, the dogs MUST get liver--3%-5% of their diet to be more precise. Other organs should make up another 5% of the diet. These would include kidney, spleen, pancreas, eyeballs, testicles, etc.

 

7) Gizzards and heart are fed as muscle meat, not organ meat.

 

8) Fish body oil. 1000mg per 30lbs of body weight per day maintenance. If there are skin or coat issues, that amount can be significantly increased. Fish body oil is absolutely essential for a good raw diet if you are not feeding much grassfed meat.

 

9) Raw eggs are good, especially if they'll eat the shells too.

 

If I were you, I would do some more research on this topic. Join the Yahoo! group rawfeeding and visit some of the following websites:

 

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

(Download and read Work Wonders and then Raw Meaty Bones when you're through with WW)

 

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

http://www.rawlearning.com/

http://rawfed.com/myths/

 

The biggest help for me when making the switch was the Yahoo group rawfeeding (or rawcat if you have cats also).

 

You need to determine your dog's ideal body weight first. Then decide what percentage of food to start off with (between 2-3%) per day. Start with 2%...if he loses weight, up to 3% and vice versa.

 

As stated above, liver (any species) should make up 3-5% of the diet and other organs should make up another 5% of the diet.

 

75-80% of the diet should be MEAT and 10-15% of the diet should be EDIBLE bone (chicken, lamb, pork, etc)

 

That's it! It's really simple. Go to the store and buy some meat. Package it in 1 or 2 day bags and thaw as needed.

 

I generally feed 2 meals per day although a lot of raw feeders only feed 1. I feed an RMB (raw meaty bone) in the AM (chicken, beef, pork, lamb) and then meatymeat in the evening (some proteins, along with fish, tripe, gizzards, etc). They also get their organ and liver meat with their evening meals. I measure out a week's worth and make sure it's gone at the end of the week. No needless measuring each day. Raw eggs 4x a week and fish body oil everyday.

 

It's very simple if you let it be. You want to model what your dog would eat if he were wild. Essentially, small prey animals. Not dairy and not vegetation. Contrary to popular belief, wild dogs do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey.

 

Anyway, hope this helps a bit. Do some research and join the Yahoo group. It's a ton of help even if you never write. Just read and research. Most of all, have fun! Raw feeding should be fun for both you and your pets!! It is as easy or hard as you make it. For me, it's absolutely simple. And my cats love it more than my dogs!

[donna frankland (uk)]

ditto ^^^

except, in the wild wolves would be eating large prey animals (though i aint gonna turn down small prey!lol!) i wouldnt use canned tripe as it is cooked, and i feed all raw. see if you can get green tripe, it stinks but they love it!

i feed once per day maximum, sometimes i let them stuff and then go without the next day depending on the dogs moods.

tikki i feed every day, squirrel gets to gorge and fast once a week or so (she is only 9 months but well grown for a weeny terrier).

brighid.... brighid will eat every 2 or 3 days (her choice not mine) so when she wants to eat i let her eat her fill, which can be an awful lot! lol!

though this past week she has decided that eating is actually quite cool so she has eaten every day. i bet it doesnt last long lol!

 

the wind could be from tummies getting used to real food, same with the mucous. keep an eye on it, but i doubt you will have any problems!

the wind can be interesting, if i need to strip any paint i just need to feed tikki a piece of very fatty lamb! its enough to make your eyes water!

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Originally posted by donna frankland (uk):

in the wild wolves would be eating large prey animals (though i aint gonna turn down small prey!lol!)

You are correct. I feed the way I do because it's how I am comfortable feeding. If the OP joins the group rawfeeding, she'll see that a lot of raw feeders are feeding "big" and using the "gorge and fast" model of feeding. I, personally, choose not to. But my dogs get the same sort of stuff...just twice a day instead of once every 3 days.

 

Originally posted by donna frankland (uk):

i wouldnt use canned tripe as it is cooked, and i feed all raw. see if you can get green tripe, it stinks but they love it!

It is possible I was told wrong, but I heard the Tripett variety is raw. In the US, green tripe is not for human consumption and can therefore be very hard to find unless you know how to get it straight from the source. I haven't been so lucky and I refuse to feed the bleached crap from grocery stores. If the canned tripe IS cooked, than it is the absolute only thing I feed cooked. And it will be gone as soon as I can find a source of raw green tripe.

 

As for the poop changes and gas...more than likely it's from the raw foods. Some animals can take a while to adjust and switching back and forth from raw to kibble will only make the adjustment harder.

[donna frankland (uk)]

hmmmm, now i'm not sure! lol!! i may have invented it in my head....

i assumed (and you know what they say about assuming!) that it would be cooked because it was canned?

i thought the canning process meant it had to go to a million degrees or something so it would keep?

(ok ok a possible slight exaggeration there lol!)

 

by the way, i'm on rawfeeding too (if you mean the yahoo group). small world innit?

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Well...I only heard it was raw based on word of mouth...so I could be wrong too! Who knows! Either way it stinks to high heaven and the dogs (and cats) L-O-V-E it!

[Root Beer]

I can't afford to feed raw to all three of my dogs, so Sammie and Maddie eat a kibble diet. But I frequently throw raw bits into their bowls. Sometimes they each get a whole egg (I sometimes get them for free from a friend who has chickens). Sometimes they both get a chicken neck.

 

Neither has ever had a problem eating both kibble and the raw bits that I give them from time to time.

[Alicia]

Lol WOW! Lots of info Let's see here ;D

1) Why ground meat? It provides no dental workout and the risk of it containing higher levels of bacteria is much higher. Get some good old fashioned chicken leg quarters, split breasts or the like and toss those to your pups instead. Chicken is much easier to start with than beef also.

I was told to add groud beef to Dally's diet because of the fat content. That and meat here is very expensive, I cant afford to do Raw if I feed bone meat.

 

2) If you're willing to feed raw, why not make a complete switch?

Honestly, I dont have the money to pay for enough to feed them straight raw. Like I said above, meat here is very expensive and I just can afford it. So, I feed a high quality kibble as part of the diet. Also, I want to make sure I am getting enough variety as I've read becasue of the limit funds for raw meat. Also, since I am not feeding bone meat the kibble is for dental reasons as well.

 

3) Why do you insist on feeding veggies? Dogs do not need them and do not eat them in the wild unless they need to "move things along" if you know what I mean.

Because most of what I had read said to feed a variety of veggies, pulverized because of the vitamin content.

 

4) I would not feed honeycomb tripe if you are speaking of the type you buy in the grocery store. It's bleached out and devoid of any nutrients for your pups. Insted, try the canned version called Tripett, which is actually GREEN as tripe should be. "Green" tripe is the term used for unbleached tripe (but it's really green). I bet you can pick it up at the same store you're buying your kibble at.

I bought the honeycomb tripe because I didnt know there was another kind There was Honeycoab tripe and bleached tripe. I had read that "bleached" tripe was not good so the only thing left was honeycomb. I'll loos next time for the green canned tripe, but I'm not sure I'll be able to find it anywhere.

 

5) Why dairy? It is not species appropriate for dogs. Forget the cottage cheese and yogurt.

I read somewhere that the cultures were settling to the tummy. I'll stop feeding it if it's not.

 

6) If you switch to a raw diet, the dogs MUST get liver--3%-5% of their diet to be more precise. Other organs should make up another 5% of the diet. These would include kidney, spleen, pancreas, eyeballs, testicles, etc.

That's strange, alot of what I read said that liver should be fed sparingly because of the toxins that the liver naturally takes in.. is that not true? because this is the opposite of what you're saying. I'll do some more research.

 

7) Gizzards and heart are fed as muscle meat, not organ meat.

I wasnt feeding them as any certain meat lol I just bought every meat the had, that I could afford to feed in small quantities, that I had read was good for them.

 

8) Fish body oil. 1000mg per 30lbs of body weight per day maintenance. If there are skin or coat issues, that amount can be significantly increased. Fish body oil is absolutely essential for a good raw diet if you are not feeding much grassfed meat.

 

Ok, so I'll get fish body oil next time I go out. Is this the oil that is fed as a fat supplement? my main focus is to increase fat in Dally's diet to balance the protein as Bill and Julie have been telling me

 

9) Raw eggs are good, especially if they'll eat the shells too.

I've been feeding them the eggs, I crack em because they wont do it themselves, i tried. I then crumple the shells up into the food. Kole is eating them wonderfully but Dally I am going to have to crumble finer as she isnt eating them, everything but them.

 

If I were you, I would do some more research on this topic. Join the Yahoo! group rawfeeding and visit some of the following websites:

THANKS! Will do.

 

I've been feeding them 2 feedings a day and both of them are not refusing eating. Kole gobbles it up in a few minutes and Dally takes a few more minutes.

 

So, I'll do some more research, there's just so many conflicting beliefs and opinions. lol

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

It seems like most of what you believe to be true about raw feeding is sort of the "old" school of thought--BARF style.

 

And...are you truly serious that meat WITH bones costs more than meat WITHOUT bones? If so, I'm moving to Montana! I feel cheated!

 

As for cost--you'd be surprised! I try to keep my overall budget at UNDER $1.00/lb. That's overall. Chicken leg quarters (4-6 meals per week of 14 total meals) cost me anywhere from $0.19 - $0.48/lb. That's it. So 10lbs of chicken costs me a maximum of $4.80. If I fed chicken leg quarters alone, I could feed 2 dogs and 2 cats for around $25.00 per month. A bad raw diet is still better than any premium kibble.

 

I strongly urge you to read the websites I've posted and also join the Yahoo group.

[Alicia]

Ok, well I'll keep checking it out The book I have is new, 3rd edition not that that really matters but it all seemed logical.

Thanks for all yuor help, I'll keep researching it

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

What book do you have?

[Alicia]

I have Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats., 3rd Ed. Revised and Updated 2005

[Bill Fosher]

TheRuffMuttGang wrote: Contrary to popular belief, wild dogs do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey.

 

Someone forgot to tell the coyotes that kill my sheep that. They also forgot to tell them that wild dogs don't eat fruit and berries.

[Lenajo]

You might like Carina Beth McDonald's book and website http://www.raw-dogs.com/

 

You can make a raw diet quite easy, or incredibly complicated. If your dog does not have medical problems it is not necessary to make it complicated. My dogs eat a flowing balance (in descending order of amount)of raw meat/bones, pureed vegetables, organ meats, cooked scraps/cooked grain/dairy. On average this is about a 60:15:5:5 balance, but that gives and takes as we have more access to certain products. My dogs do need more fat than most, as well as more meat to maintain working weight.

 

As Bill pointed out, coyotes (and indeed wild dogs) leave almost nothing of a prey animal. There is controversy over wolf diet, and it is the opinion of some researchers and diet gurus that the stomach content is unnecessary. Other experts disagree. Some won't feed dairy, others will, etc etc etc.

 

Imo it is virtually impossible to feed a true "prey model" diet to domestic dogs. Not only do few of us have access to a naturally grown prey (mice, rabbits, deer, or for the larger dog elk or bison), but domestication has changed some dogs to a degree. Yes, they are the same species...but you can't hand a chihuahua a deer fawn and expect it to do well ROFL A Border Collie is quite close to a wolf, but it's not one either. You have to use some sense...make the best balance of healthy raw foods you can for the individual as well as the species it comes from.

 

I and my family have been feeding raw to 20+ for 9 years. I've stopped counting how many dogs I've helped/supervised the switch to raw after a hundred dogs. It's not a perfect diet, but it's as close to it as we can get for 99% of dogs if we use some common sense.

[Dancing Cavy]

If you have a Super Wal-Mart nearby, you can get a 10 pound bag of chicken quarters for under $5. I feed quarters to Risa every other day and the 10 pound bag lasts me about a month.

[Alicia]

Thanks for the info! I am just researching and looking, it seems that the topic is very undecided as far as stomach contents, veggies, fruits and what not go. My dog's eat em, I just chop em up with a chopper as fine as I can.

 

Jamie, I'll look at Wal-Mart Again next time If I can find that type of thing I'll get it for sure but last time I ws there all the had was Foster Farms chicken and it was really pricey, over 2.00/lb So, If I find something cheap I will be chicken with bone

 

So, so far, I think that what I am feeding is fairly balanced, they eat it all, I am going to add oil for fat though. So, I think I'm just going to keep goin the way I'm goin, rotating various items as they come and keeping the variety up.

 

Thanks all

[Black Watch Debatable]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

TheRuffMuttGang wrote: Contrary to popular belief, wild dogs do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey.

 

Someone forgot to tell the coyotes that kill my sheep that. They also forgot to tell them that wild dogs don't eat fruit and berries.

Yep. Take a look at the scat and you can see how much our local coyotes favor manzanita berries, for example. Real omnivores, coyotes.

 

Obligatory Wiki link:

The coyote is an omnivore and adapts its diet to the available food sources including fruits, grasses, and vegetables along with small mammals.

Take a short hike through our foothills and you'll see the evidence.

[Wendy V]

When feeding raw, think about what a wild canid might find and eat in the wild. Eggs, yes, cottage cheese, shedded cheese, yogurt, no. Baby carrots, red peppers, broccoli - I doubt highly. You would be better off feeding those to yourself.

 

MEATY raw bones are the backbone of a raw diet. Chicken leg quarters are inexpensive and quite available. Start there and then move onto other meaty creatures. Whole turkey is very cheap right now. Walmart also has whole beef brisket at a good price. Make friends with hunters that home process and ask for their leftovers. My dogs eat a lot of free deer this time of year.

 

Skip all the veggies, diary, oils, grains, and supplements right now, or forever, as in my case. When you gain more experience, buy your self a good cutting board and cleaver and a used freezer.

 

Good luck.

[Bill Fosher]

It would be pretty shocking for some to see the amount of corn that's in coyote scat as well. I have seen coyotes grazing on winter rye seedheads, oats that were in the milk stage, and even eating that horrific canine poison, grapes.

 

Pumpkins left in the field often show canine-like teeth marks, but I have never actually seen a coyote eat squash.

 

I have a guard dog that chases the lambs away from their trough when I feed out whole shelled corn. I have to tie him up. After the lambs are finished, he spends about an hour cleaning up around the troughs. The inclusion of corn in his diet has clearly been quite harmful to him. I'll apologize to him on his 15th birthday next spring.

 

Incidentally, this same guard dog also loves woodchuck. I'm not sure he can still catch them, but when he could there was no safety for one in his paddock short of staying in the burrow. He would take two days to eat a big one (25 to 30 lbs), and yes, he ate the stomach contents. The head, liver, and lungs first, then the stomach contents, then the muscle meat, bones, and fur.

 

Our other guard dogs eat voles and field mice. They flip them up in the air to kill them and then swallow them whole. The only drawback to this is the occasional tapeworm infestation.

 

None of this is scientifically valid, I know. But coyotes and guard dogs are the closest I can get to wild dogs. My sense is that they will eat whatever they can get that is a source of calories and even vaguely palatable. When given the choice between kibble and wild meat, my guard dogs will chose wild meat if there's enough of it. When there's a vole explosion, they will eat less kibble. When they're working on a woodchuck, they'll eat none.

 

Canis familiaris probably became differentiated from wolves and/or other wild canids when it started following human habitation, eating our scraps and whatever else it could find and catch. As agriculture increased and some cultures became more settled, it stands to reason that dogs would have adapted their diets to what was available, which would have included grains and vegetables as well as game scraps and small animals that they caught on their own.

 

I've been wondering lately if Eastern coyotes are on the verge of making the same leap as dogs did all those millenia ago and casting their lot in with ours. They are living in Central Park in New York City, for crying out loud.

[PSmitty]

I think what's important here is to remember that there's no one way that's "right" or "perfect" for each dog. If you do research, you'll find lots of different ways of feeding raw.

 

So, IMO, if you want to add veggies and dairy, it is not going to hurt your dog! It may even benefit in some way.

 

I know someone on another board, who I respect and value her opinion, and she and her holistic vet agree that an all meat diet is not the best. She even has one day a week where her dogs don't eat meat. She says that processing all that meat is hard on the kidneys and liver (I think), so they get a break. Of note: she had a dog live 7 years with inoperable cancer that should've killed him way before that.

 

Do I swear this method would work for every dog? No. Maybe? Yes. Try what you want & think will benefit your dog, if that doesn't work, you try something else.

[Lenajo]

Interesting points from Bill about coyotes and LGDs. My livestock guardian dogs eat rabbit, bullfrog, and rats in abundance. They particularily love bullfrog and out abundant ponds and wetlands provide a steady source. The preferred preparation of these frogs is a the "pounce, toss, swallow" series. Iron Chefs envy this technique.

 

The only reason I can think of to get on a specific, very limited, diet is because you are dealing with a specific health problem. Otherwise healthy dogs stay healthy by being provided with good variety of fresh food. The basis of this should be raw meat and bones, but the smallar portions can be grains/veggies/dairy/dry dog food etc and the dog will, should, still thrive. They are carnivorous *scavengers* after all, not obligate carnivores like felines.

 

Walmart chicken hind quarters are not wild prey meaty bones. They are about as far from that as an ear of corn out of a can! The chicken is from grain fed, antibiotic loaded, and indoor housed flocks of specially genetically produced fast growing chickens that would not, could not, survive in the wild. I am *not* saying they don't have food value above and beyond kibble, but if anyone thinks they can purchase products like that and recreate a wild type canid diet they are as mistaken as the dog food companies are.

 

Venison is a great thing for a raw diet, but do please remember that in more places than not you are getting artificially fattened deer grown on planted grain crops and their pestitide residue as well as deliberately provided food plots (courtesy of the hunting groups, who want bigger, better deer...not that silly old wild stuff). Deer is vastly better for dogs than factory farmed cow and chicken, but it's, yet again, far from what Lewis and Clark's dogs gnawed on.

 

I'll sell you on the merits of a fresh food, primarily raw meaty bone, diet for dogs anyday. I've seen it's use perform miracles for sure. But this "prey diet" stuff, not just thinking about feeding a carnivore but actually trying to treat them as if they were living wild...I think we are dreaming unless you live in the middle of nowwhere, untouched by modern society.

 

Raw meaty bones from a variety of sources, a balance of other fresh food items to cover the details, ocassional minimal amounts of cooked foods.....beyond that you get into individualities and nobody can work with those better than the people with their hands on that dog.

[Alicia]

All very good points Thanks all!

 

I think the way I figure it was as PSmitty said. They may not do much, if anything as far as nutrition goes, but.. they certainly arent hurting them, and it's certainly better than an all kibble diet.

[Wendy V]

"Deer is vastly better for dogs than factory farmed cow and chicken, but it's, yet again, far from what Lewis and Clark's dogs gnawed on."

 

Wasn't it Lewis and Clark the ones gnawing on the dogs??

[Alicia]

Lol yes, Lewis and Clark did eat their dogs ;D lmao.

 

So, I found bag of chicken leg quarters for 5.00 at Walmart! YAY!! So, I dont know how I missed em.. but I have them now, so once a day they will be getting a chicken leg quarter in addition to the rest of the stuff