TNS Again

[Katelynn & Gang]

I'm looking for the pedigree of Gael ISDS 176596.

 

Ahhhh, no idea. There is no information on her anywhere.

 

Katelynn

[Katelynn & Gang]

For anyone who followed the discussion on Gail's breeding and the rumors that she is from "all" English lines which translates to "ISDS bred" for the Dog Fancy World, this is what I have found in the pedigree and why I believe her not to be a "ISDS" bred dog or working bred dog with absolute no conformation breeding influence.

 

This is a copy of an email of mine to Alan who is doing the study.

 

"I wanted to comment on Gail's breeding. It is being said that she is from all "English" lines which is translated into a all "ISDS" bred dog to the Dog Fancy World, a dog whose breeding (current and that of the dogs before the current dog) where bred strictly for its ability to work livestock. This is not true for Gail in most of her pedigree.

 

Her pedigree leads back to a line of Wildfell dogs, three generations worth at least before the pedigree becomes untraceable. Wildfell is a "Border Collie" kennel that breeds its dogs for their conformation and "versatility."

 

Then there is the small fact that no pedigree for L'Blue exists (I have been in contact with his owner, L'Blue is now deceased). He could be from any breeding imaginable. [Edit]

 

The pedigree on the Border Collie Health site also shows no pedigree or registration numbers for Boy and Sally. I have found both for each dog. Sally is a fifth generation of NHSB registered dogs which is the [Edit] Dutch Kennel Club that does indeed support the breeding of Border Collies for conformation reasons and plays a big part in the current breed of conformation bred (and her conformation characteristics play the part of a dogs whose breeding has been influenced by a conformation standard) Border Collies. Boy is also a NHSB registered dog but is only a second generation. He had to be ROM back into the ISDS (meaning the dog was accepted back into the ISDS after proving himself to be a useful dog, not because he was a "Border Collie" by pedigree, any dog and any breed can be ROM into ISDS so long as they are proven to be useful dogs and the same goes for ABCA) because the ISDS does not accept pedigrees of NHSB (they do not accept pedigrees from any Kennel Club) dogs because they do not uphold the same standard of breeding."

[Rosanne]

Thanks Katelynn, you're very thorough!

 

I knew we had determined that L'Blue was the unknown, but hadn't heard what you said; that even the OWNER didn't knos his pedigree. She seems to imply that he is from great working lines, but obviously must have assumed that from the way he/his parents worked stock. It doesn't sound like he was ever himself proven on the trial or even farm field either (putting stock in a corner doesn't take a lot of talent, even a newbie like I knows that - my 10-month old did that by himself with no training, and only me on the field with him).

[bcs4eva]

Is this the pedigree that Alan refers to as all English lines? Alan's results are confidential and only the owners who give their permission for results to be published are on that website.

[webeherdin]

Thanks Katelynn, you're very thorough!

 

I knew we had determined that L'Blue was the unknown, but hadn't heard what you said; that even the OWNER didn't knos his pedigree. She seems to imply that he is from great working lines, but obviously must have assumed that from the way he/his parents worked stock. It doesn't sound like he was ever himself proven on the trial or even farm field either (putting stock in a corner doesn't take a lot of talent, even a newbie like I knows that - my 10-month old did that by himself with no training, and only me on the field with him).

 

Roseanne,

 

I think you may have missed something in a post along the way.

What was said was,

" at four months old, he worked the neighbours 200 cows into a corner of the field "

 

which is a little harder of a feat than a 10 month old putting sheep into a corner.

 

I would be proud to own a 4 month old pup that could accomplish this with cows.

 

J.S.D.

[Rosanne]

Roseanne,

 

I think you may have missed something in a post along the way.

What was said was,

" at four months old, he worked the neighbours 200 cows into a corner of the field "

 

which is a little harder of a feat than a 10 month old putting sheep into a corner.

 

I would be proud to own a 4 month old pup that could accomplish this with cows.

 

J.S.D.

 

 

Look, I am not trying to bash anybody, I'm just saying that one feat of stock moving does not equal a proven dog. That's all. My 10-month old (he's 4 now, actually) worked 15 flighty sheep who were VERY RARELY worked by a dog, into a corner, and held them while I came up the 300 yard field and fetched him off and then moved them with my older dog. That's not the point. Neither is the fact that L'Blue may have worked cattle once or twice in his life.

 

I get tired of breeders or friends of breeders pointing them to this site so they can become a member specifically to defend themselves against one silly little comment that someone made. This happens ALL the time. I did not mean to insult Blue, I was only mentioning something. This has nothing to do with TNS.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Is this the pedigree that Alan refers to as all English lines?

 

Yes, the dogs in Gail's pedigree that I listed are from the pedigree that Alan refers to as being all "English" lines which in other words is all "ISDS working bred" to the Dog Fancy but from what I've found, I find that assumption impossible to safely claim. I have written to Alan about the history of this dog's extended pedigree without any reply yet (it is a Holiday weekend after all) but hopefully in due time, we can have this assumption dismissed until solid evidence from a full blooded working bred ISDS (or ABCA/CBCA *A Section Pedigree) dog is found to carry TNS.

 

The pedigree is on the Border Collie Health page, it is public.

 

Katelynn

[Journey]

Ok thanks - that is who I thought you were referring to. I was referring to the pedigree underneath hers, with Meg Merrilees as the dam. I'm looking for the pedigree of Gael ISDS 176596.

 

 

I only have her top half;

 

Pedigree of: Gael 176596 ISDS 176596

Date of Birth:

Colour & Markings:

Owner:

 

+--Drift 68728 ISDS 68728

+--Moss 91079 ISDS 91079

| +--Meg 78015 ISDS 78015

+--Bobby 119815 ISDS 119815

| | +--Scot Nat Brace CH Glen 75630 (1977) ISDS 75630

| +--Slip 102578 ISDS 102578

| +--Scot Nat CH Nell 53708 (1970) ISDS 53708

+--Intl Sup/Eng Nat CH Davy 131049 (1987) ISDS 131049

| | +--Sweep 86362 ISDS 86362

| | +--Mac 115688 ISDS 115688

| | | +--Maid 82040 ISDS 82040

| +--Sandie 122755 ISDS 122755

| | +--Garry 74142 ISDS 74142

| +--Vera 93999 ISDS 93999

| +--Fly 81317 ISDS 81317

+--Gael 176596 ISDS 176596

| +--

| +--

| | +--

| +--

| | | +--

| | +--

| | +--

+--Floss 111446

| +--

| +--

| | +--

+--

| +--

+--

+--

 

 

Karen

[Katelynn & Gang]

As for the "inbreeding" of this subject goes. There is a dog named "Nigger" that shows up many MANY times in the TNS and CL pedigrees.

 

There is no information to be found on Nigger dog whom seems to be the Wiston Cap of the Fancy's Border Collie. If anyone knows anything about him, please post. At this point, I am at the assumption (due to lack of public information) that Nigger was a well bred Black Field Spaniel (Spaniels indeed carry CL and have a remarkable similarity to the Fancy's Border Collies in feathers, eyes, ears, flukes, markings, colors, current temperament, movement while "working" and tracking abilities). It is also very convenient that pedigrees stop before they get to Nigger's name on a lot of very well known conformation kennels web pedigrees which does make one think that there might be something to hide.

 

I am totally aware of the fact that Border Collies have Spaniel in them but I have never seen it in pedigrees (as they were bred in before pedigrees where recorded by the ISDS).

 

Here is a list of how many times "Nigger" shows up in the first few TNS pedigrees within the first 14-16 generations and if you go back farther (especially for those dogs whose numbers of Nigger equal 0, whose pedigrees did not show up, or go far back enough in the database I used in the first 14-16 generations), I am sure he will be found many more times. When running the pedigree's of the CL Carries it was impossible to find a breeding with him in it less then 9 times (in 14 generations), so I just gave up searching for pedigrees without him.

 

For these reasons, it would be intesresting to know Nigger's breeding. He may hold more answers to question then were looking for.

 

Katelynn

 

TNS Pedigree 1

 

Total times: 1,108

 

TNS Pedigree 2

 

Total times: 87

 

TNS Pedigree 3

 

Total times: 20

 

TNS Pedigree 4

 

Total times: 20

 

TNS Pedigree 5

 

Total times: 18

 

TNS Pedigree 6

 

Total times: 76

[mjk05]

go far back enough in the database I used in the first 14-16 generations

Which database is that, if you don't mind me asking?

[Katelynn & Gang]

You can go back more then 14-16 generations if you take the time to but I was just doing the pedigree sreach for related dogs (that only goes back 14 generations). I was doing it by the Sire or Dam and when need the Gands.

 

If you have the time, please feel free to go over my work. I'm sure you'll find Nigger many more times then which I have if you go the full length of the pedigrees.

 

http://db.kennel.dk/index.html

[mjk05]

I'm not critical of your research, Katelynn, looks like you've done a sterling job, and its very interesting. I was just wondering which database you'd used because I'm interested in researching local dogs' pedigrees, and there's not much available for some of them way back, and no centralised database I knew of. But lots of the ANKC dogs (most of them, I think) go back to Australian working dogs registered with our local bodies (pre-dating the ISDS in many cases), so I was hoping you had some secret mother-lode of info! That database is very interesting, thanks.

 

Out of interest, is the dog Nigger you mention the one with QLD as its only details? If it is, I don't think its likely to be a spaniel- it'd be an unregistered or locally bred working dog in Queensland, and I can't imagine they'd be very likely to use spaniels in their working dogs up there (especially given the climate/conditions). Much more likely to be a collie or kelpie type, like Bantry etc (also behind many Show Border Collies). Certainly the Queensland-bred working dogs I know of don't bear any particular resemblance to either spaniels or Show Border Collies. But Nigger's presence in those pedigrees is a very interesting and possibly useful observation!

[Katelynn & Gang]

Yes, Nigger would be a "QLD." We did figure that out to be a Queensland dog and first thought went to a Barb, either way, how easy would it be to put "QLD" behind any ole' mutts name? It would be very nice to know his breeding though, in light that so many of the Fancy's breeders are over using his bloodline to the point that mutations are showing up, mutations that have failed to show up in any full "working bred" ISDS dog.

 

Anyway! Who knows, he could really be anything for that matter (as there is no record going back to the ISDS and he was around well within the time the ISDS was , I wont even consider him "Border Collie" at this point, IMO). I'm just glad my dogs are not related to him, as I firmly believe he plays a big part in this CL and TNS thing in the Fancy's Border Collies.

 

Katelynn

[mjk05]

Yes, Nigger would be a "QLD." We did figure that out to be a Queensland dog and first thought went to a Barb, either way, how easy would it be to put "QLD" behind any ole' mutts name?

Very unlikely to be a spaniel, though, eh?

And I don't know who submitted the info to the Danish Border Collie database, but chances are they didn't have much complete information. The "QLD" is most likely not an indication of registration, but place of origin- although Nigger may well be a registered dog- Australian working dog registries almost all register dogs on merit. Even today, working dogs over here are primarily agricultural animals, rather than for trialling or recreation, so most of our working dogs aren't registered anywhere (even if eligible by breeding).

 

so many of the Fancy's breeders are over using his bloodline to the point that mutations are showing up, mutations that have failed to show up in any full "working bred" ISDS dog.

Now I don't want to be seen to be defending "The Fancy" (I don't own/have never owned/have no interest in owning show-bred dogs of any breed), but I'm pretty sure the show breeders are not deliberately overusing this Nigger's bloodline (I know you aren't suggesting its deliberate). I doubt they even know he exists, and I'm pretty sure no-one would know what he looked like. Its not like they are deliberately line-breeding on this dog or anything. He must have been a dog that lived in the 40's or 50's, given that his granddaughter listed on the database was born in 1958. At that time, all Australian border collies were working dogs, and they basically developed the Show Border Collie breed by selecting some of the working dogs to breed from, and then closing their stud books. So the Show BC breed have lots and lots of common ancestors, and its probably not surprising that these sort of recessive conditions show up in their lines.

 

But as you've pointed out earlier, its possible that TNS may also exist in Australian working border collies, which indicates 2 things to me- one, that Australian working dogs are also subject to the dangers of recessive conditions in fairly closed gene pools (even though dogs have been and continue to be imported and used over here- to a much larger extent than in the show lines), and two- that breeding purely for work is not protection against diseases like TNS. Personally I think diseases like TNS (and CL, and I guess CEA etc) are essentially evidence of the inherent risks of close breeding for any purpose, rather than anything to do with Show breeds like the Show BC. Even if the TNS gene doesn't exist in purely working-bred ISDS lines, its an interesting topic. FWIW, if there was a specific gene test for TNS and it didn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd probably get our purely working-bred imported ISDS dogs tested.

[Katelynn & Gang]

mjk You said yourself that he could be a Kelpie or Collie mix which I have no problem with besides the fact that there are two very rare and deadly mutations that are showing up in lines heavily inbred with a dog from "unknown" linage, whom nobody wants to accredit in their pedigrees or has any history on.

 

Maybe CL and TNS are from the AU working dogs, as it seems they DID indeed, whatever their mixes may or may not be, play a part in the Fancy's Border Collie or so you have implied. Alan did say he found TNS in a working bred AU dog and with this new light on Nigger, I can believe it. If Nigger is indeed a AU working dog, his breeding should really be further researched, as maybe CL and TNS are not mutation from the Border Collie after all but from dogs "thrown" in while being bred for work in AU to suit the climate.

 

Spaniel or not (which it appears no one will ever be able to prove) it is/was highly irresponsible for any sort of breeder to breed any line of dogs together without knowing the full history of the pedigrees of the said "breeding" dogs (especially when it is evident they are related in the visible pedigree). Responsible breeding comes with more then just having "correct" dogs with all the health tests, it comes with knowing your bloodlines inside and out, off the charts and on.

 

Katelynn

[Rosanne]

If you start with Nigger and keep working through the pups you come to AUSCH, NZCH, and CH as titles awfully quickly - are those conformation championships? If so, it would seem to me that Nigger (I feel sort of rude saying that!) was probably a founding dog for the conformation lines in OZ dogs. His grandpups sure do have pretty kennel names too. . . . don't know many working breeders/farm owners with dogs called "Checkmate Gay Abby" etc etc

 

What year did the Australian kennel club recognize BC's and/or close the books? Was it right around the 40's/50's?

 

edit to add: I went down 2 more generations and sure enough, there's Clan-Abby dogs I've seen LOTS of pedigrees! And that was just clicking on random pups. . .

I don't have the actual patience to keep going but I know I've seen Lorna Doone and Blue Aberdoone plenty of times. . .

 

Are there any other dogs behind all these dogs? If it was a small closed pool I'd expect there might be other dogs that all the pedigrees went back to as well. Or it could even have been one of Nigger's ancestors who was brought over from the UK (IF he's a BC), and perhaps there might be the link back to ISDS dogs, but since the gene pool wasn't closed in Europe it was never brought out

[mjk05]

mjk You said yourself that he could be a Kelpie or Collie mix which I have no problem with besides the fact that there are two very rare and deadly mutations that are showing up in lines heavily inbred with a dog from "unknown" linage, whom nobody wants to accredit in their pedigrees or has any history on.

Or... maybe he was a collie, like most of the working dogs in this country, descended from imported British dogs. There are a bunch of other common ancestors behind these dogs too.

 

Maybe CL and TNS are from the AU working dogs, as it seems they DID indeed, whatever their mixes may or may not be, play a part in the Fancy's Border Collie or so you have implied. Alan did say he found TNS in a working bred AU dog and with this new light on Nigger, I can believe it. If Nigger is indeed a AU working dog, his breeding should really be further researched, as maybe CL and TNS are not mutation from the Border Collie after all but from dogs "thrown" in while being bred for work in AU to suit the climate.

My understanding is that working dogs in Australia are almost entirely descended from dogs imported from Britain- even the kelpie was developed from collies from the Borders (and a few other places in Scotland)- not officially "border collies". because the term hadn't yet been coined, but border collies. Sadly many records have been lost, especially around the war years, and others weren't kept.

 

I don't think we can say CL and TNS are "from AU working dogs"- especially since CL is still unknown in our working lines, as far as I'm aware. But they might also exist in those lines (TNS in particular), but be less common because our working dogs are a bigger gene pool, and still regularly incorporate dogs from "outside" (overseas, interstate, etc).

 

So its possible (don't go nuts) that these recessive genes DO exist outside Australian Show BC breed, and even in dogs with no Australian breeding, but because of the wider gene pool, just haven't shown up to any degree elsewhere. TNS could be pretty easily overlooked in working dogs in decades gone by, and even today, if you aren't looking for it. Its also possible it is a recent mutation in an Australian dog, and is limited to our dogs- but who knows?

 

Spaniel or not (which it appears no one will ever be able to prove)

Where did the spaniel idea come from??? Is that based on research? Its just such a weird suggestion, I'm fascinated to know where it came from. I had heard/read about gundogs being used in the development of the collie in Britain (pointers and such), so the point about spaniels and CL is an interesting one.

 

it is/was highly irresponsible for any sort of breeder to breed any line of dogs together without knowing the full history of the pedigrees of the said "breeding" dogs (especially when it is evident they are related in the visible pedigree).

You're assuming everyone who bred these dogs KNOWS they go back to common ancestors- this one in particular. And you're assuming that whoever contributed the pedigrees to the Danish database was accurate in their records/research (I believe that database takes contributions from anyone).

 

I guess it is a fair point to label irresponsible the breeding of dogs without knowing their full history back to the 14th generation, and the inbreeding coefficient etc- but I have to say it, lots of great working dogs have inbreeding behind them. I doubt that the breeders of most of my dogs' ancestors (and dare I suggest it, anyone's) knew that degree of detail for all the dogs they've ever used. I've seen a fair array of ISDS pedigrees with unregistered dogs behind them, and I can't swear for 100% certain that my own ISDS dogs don't have the same dog somewhere behind them on every line of their pedigree pre-dating the 1900s. Can anyone?

 

Personally, while I'm happy to see breeders being mindful of the risks of inbreeding and a limited gene pool, the fact that many great working dogs come from people whose skills lie more in working dogs and breeding dogs for work than in advanced pedigree analysis doesn't bother me too much. It would be possible to ruin a line of dogs by concentrating on their paperwork rather than their stockwork as fast as you can by concentrating on their conformation.

[mjk05]

If you start with Nigger and keep working through the pups you come to AUSCH, NZCH, and CH as titles awfully quickly - are those conformation championships? If so, it would seem to me that Nigger (I feel sort of rude saying that!) was probably a founding dog for the conformation lines in OZ dogs. His grandpups sure do have pretty kennel names too. . . . don't know many working breeders/farm owners with dogs called "Checkmate Gay Abby" etc etc

 

Those would be his great-grand-pups, from my reading- the database only has one recorded pup from Nigger, a bitch called Lady Wendy (also no rego number), and they only have one recorded pup from her- Gabriella, who has a Queensland WSDA number. They have 8 recorded pups from Gabriella, by 4 different dogs, born between 1963 and 1969. They have numbers that don't appear to be working registry numbers. From looking back at other related dogs, the first ones with Ch titles and non-WSDA numbers appear to be from the late '50s. But dogs with no rego numbers or only WSDA numbers/breeding are listed as parents of dogs born into the '60s, so I can only assume the ANKC studbooks were still open then (or the database records are incomplete). Maybe someone who knows something about the Show BC breed can fill us in on its history?

 

As far as the Ch titles go, I think most of them refer to the conformation title Aust Ch, but I have a feeling that database does list some working bred dogs with Ch titles- and they aren't show dogs (and not ANKC reg'd so ineligible to be shown), so I have to assume that they mean dogs that won championship trials...

 

If it was a small closed pool I'd expect there might be other dogs that all the pedigrees went back to as well. Or it could even have been one of Nigger's ancestors who was brought over from the UK (IF he's a BC), and perhaps there might be the link back to ISDS dogs, but since the gene pool wasn't closed in Europe it was never brought out

Exactly. Could be either an Australian dog mutation (Nigger or some other dog), or one that was already present in imported dogs, but was concentrated by the inbreeding that developed the Show BC. I don't think we'll ever know for sure, unless the gene is found in a dog with no Australian breeding.

[mjk05]

Just found this on a quick google- from the BCC of NSW website:

 

The first recorded import of a Border Collie into Australia was Hindhope Jed in 1901 and research has led us to believe that they were first shown in 1907. They were first shown at the Sydney Royal in 1933 as "Any Other Variety". Later, they were shown in the non-sporting group and in 1953, a separate group was formed, comprising the Australian Cattle Dog, the Australian Kelpie and the Border Collie. This was called "The Australian Working Dog Group" and it was at this time that the RAS Kennel Control classed the Border Collie as an Australian Working Dog because it was one of the main working dogs in Australia and greatly relied on in our sheep and wool industry. This classification has carried through to the present day, although other breeds were added to these in 1961 and the group was then renamed the "Working Dog Group".

So I guess the Show BC emerged somewhere between 1953-1961.

[Rosanne]

Those would be his great-grand-pups, from my reading- og with no Australian breeding.

 

what I meant was, if you keep hitting the 'pups' button, thus working your way down through generations. On re-reading my own post, obviously I wasn't clear in what I meant!

 

It sounds like the timeline's about right. But basically it just confirms the general idea that TNS and CL come from Australian show lines, regardless of the origin BEFORE they were Aus. show liens, that is where 99% of it is/going to be found.

 

 

edit to add: That database is amazing! I traced one of my dogs all the way back to an int'l supreme ch. from 1908! How cool!

[Arnpriors]

I'll email!

 

Katelynn

 

 

Alan Wilton is testing ALL Border Collies now for TNS.

 

All you need to do is e-mail Alan on a.wilton@unsw.edu.au

with your mailing address

and he will send out all the relevant details required for this test.

[Debbie]

Will he be releasing his findings on the TNS gene and the test, or at least a statement that he has found it? On something so important as this it would be nice to hear something offical from the Dr. himself.

 

Also I believe that there is a patent on this with a lab, will he be notifying them that he is now ready to offer a DNA gene test to the public? (many of us may have blood at the lab that holds the patent and would save money if we use them).

 

If not then is this just the same 88.00 charge for donating blood to his research project? Will the results for ISDS/ABCA dogs still say that they will need to get the DNA TNS test when and if the gene is found to receive their dogs true status?

 

Deb Kelly

[border_collie_crazy]

lol I was lookin up Happys pedigree on that site, I only have her dads side, but man does she have a lot of obedience dog pretty far back in her line, her great granddam is like the only working dog in her sires half(her dam is all working) lol though I had to laugh, Happys litter sister is listed, and she is labled as a red merle...umm Punch is a BLUE merle lol I have known her for 7 years

[Arnpriors]

Will he be releasing his findings on the TNS gene and the test, or at least a statement that he has found it? On something so important as this it would be nice to hear something offical from the Dr. himself.

 

Also I believe that there is a patent on this with a lab, will he be notifying them that he is now ready to offer a DNA gene test to the public? (many of us may have blood at the lab that holds the patent and would save money if we use them).

 

If not then is this just the same 88.00 charge for donating blood to his research project? Will the results for ISDS/ABCA dogs still say that they will need to get the DNA TNS test when and if the gene is found to receive their dogs true status?

 

Deb Kelly

 

 

On asking Alan Wilton to confirm, this is the reply I received.

 

 

We are close to identifying the mutation and can now test any Border collie for TNS.

It is common in English ISDS lines, Aust/NZ show lines, and Aust Working dogs so has been in the breed for a very long time.

 

 

Alan

 

 

Alan Wilton

School of Biotechnology and Biomolecular Sciences

University of New south Wales

NSW 2052

 

 

Phone +61 2 9385 2019

Fax + 61 2 9385 1483

Mobile 0422 736 425