coon Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 i have been privy to some info that i DO trust the source of, but i nor my source have no idea if to do anything about it. maybe we just lack guts maybe ya'll can throw in some input. take a WORKING breeder that is selling off a very good dog and the buyer is not stating what there real purpose is in buying the dog (for SHOW ). should a bystander do anything or let the sale go forward? there are some good reasons as to why the seller doesn't know the real deal on the buyer, but I don't care to share it publicly. Gosh I know this all sounds confusing! hope i make some sense ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljrphoto Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Does the working breeder have a clause in their contract against this? I'm not an expert on the whole registration thing, but it seems to me if the buyer is planning to "show" the dog, the dog must be AKC registered? And, if the breeder is registering through the AKC it seems to me it's a chosen risk. That being said, why wouldn't you say anything? Are there legal ramifications if you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coon Posted March 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Does the working breeder have a clause in their contract against this? I'm not an expert on the whole registration thing, but it seems to me if the buyer is planning to "show" the dog, the dog must be AKC registered? And, if the breeder is registering through the AKC it seems to me it's a chosen risk. That being said, why wouldn't you say anything? Are there legal ramifications if you do? oh no, the dog is not AKC reg now. don't you know that AKC accepts herding ABCA reg. dogs? i have no idear if there is a contract between the partys. i would say something to the dogs seller, but i am really more the lay low type. however i wake up nights thinking of how this mistke could really hurt the breed and certain great dogs names. not to mention the seller who has a great name herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Well, there's lots here that's kind of confusing...like, how did the buyer contact the seller, and why isn't the seller more aware of who s/he is selling dogs to? I mean, if someone I don't know contacts me about buying a pup, I do a lot of homework to find out who they are and what their real intentions are... Having said all that--do you know the seller? If you do, and if you are sure the seller would not want the dog to be shown, then I'd say something, probably. But that's just who I am... Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 I agree with Anna. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 I guess I'm a little mystified as to why someone who wanted an AKC border collie wouldn't just buy from an AKC breeder. Why try to trick a working breeder into selling a dog? Wouldn't it be easier to win in conformation with a conformation-bred dog? Anyway, I'm not sure what I'd do in your shoes - as a general rule, I never pass on information I've gotten from someone else, unless I can independently verify it. And if I decided to get involved, how I'd go about it would depend on how well I knew the parties involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljrphoto Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 It took me a while but I finally found the stuff about open registration on the AKC's website, I wasn't aware of that . I have never owned any sort of registered dog so there's a lot I don't know . I knew that you could apply for an ILP number to participate in AKC sponsored competitions like agility but that you can't hold a championship with an ILP number... so I guess that's just for dogs that aren't registered at all. That's too bad that it's that easy. I guess I would mention it to the breeder, or find someone more outgoing who is willing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coon Posted March 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 It took me a while but I finally found the stuff about open registration on the AKC's website, I wasn't aware of that . I have never owned any sort of registered dog so there's a lot I don't know . I knew that you could apply for an ILP number to participate in AKC sponsored competitions like agility but that you can't hold a championship with an ILP number... so I guess that's just for dogs that aren't registered at all. That's too bad that it's that easy. I guess I would mention it to the breeder, or find someone more outgoing who is willing. you have a good plan. if anyone wants to step in and do what i can't seem to do, contact me with a private message and i'll give oyu the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 If the dog is sold into a home where it is shown to its KC Championship it will be deregistered and won't hurt our gene pool any. Either way, the breeder does need to know this. Katelynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 If I were a breeder or a seller of a dog, I'd want to know, particularly if my reputation was of any value to me at all. I'd also be VERY concerned about the possibilty of a buyer lying to or misleading me about their intentions; I'd then wonder if the individual dog's saftey or well-being would be at risk, since if the buyer is willing to lie about their intentions, what else might they be willing to do...? If I was in your position, being someone who KNEW about something like this, and said or did nothing about it, my conscience would bother me a lot. If you do nothing, are you going to be able to feel right about it? Maybe you don't feel like you are your brother's keeper, but the dog has no one to speak for it. If you're worried about saying something, can you just mention to the seller that there has been some suggestion that the buyer intends to show the dog in AKC venues, and suggest to the seller that if that concerns them, they might want to verify with the buyer what their intention is, or to put in place some contractual restrictions to prevent AKC registration? That way you aren't accusing anyone of anything, but you ARE bringing the possibility to the seller and allowing them to make their own inquiries. At that point, you've discharged your responsibilty, and thenceforth the consequences and responsibilities fall to other people and you're off the hook. JMO, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 If I were a breeder or a seller of a dog, I'd want to know, I was thinking the same thing. When I'm faced with a difficult decision about how much to tell someone, I usually go by what I would want if it was me. Would I want to know, however uncomfortable or painful the information may be? Most times, the answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljrphoto Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 If the dog is sold into a home where it is shown to its KC Championship it will be deregistered and won't hurt our gene pool any. Either way, the breeder does need to know this. Katelynn I was going to ask about this... if the more reputable registries will pull a registration on a dog that gets registered AKC. So, it only happens if the dog receives championship status under another registry? Edit: I quoted the wrong thing before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 If a Border Collie is pointed to a Championship in any KC it is deregistered from the ABCA. Katelynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Because of the fact that the dog would have its ABCA registration pulled, I'd stick my oar in, probably. That affects the breeder - if the dog were returned after being finished, there's no chance the dog could be recognized again. But I'm with Julie and Anna - it's difficult to imagine a circumstance where I'd sell a pup and not know the buyer was involved in showing. For one thing, they'd have to lie outright to me, since if I didn't know for sure I'd bring it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Because of the fact that the dog would have its ABCA registration pulled, I'd stick my oar in, probably. That affects the breeder - if the dog were returned after being finished, there's no chance the dog could be recognized again. Wow, I didn't realize that. Yep, I think the breeder definitely needs to know. I'd mention it the way AK dog doc said - that you have reason to believe the buyer may be planning to AKC register one of his/her pups, and then let the breeder get to the bottom of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 As others have said, if the buyer puts a conformation championship title on the dog, then the ABCA registration will be revoked. If I were the seller, I would *want* to know if there were intentions for this dog that I was not aware of. The seller can always decide what to do with that information, but I would hope if I were in that position someone would be willing to tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 What she said! ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 But if the dog is ISDS registered and then an AKC championship is put on it, would it lose its ISDS registration?? Because, what if this is a dog that is being imported? Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 But if the dog is ISDS registered and then an AKC championship is put on it, would it lose its ISDS registration?? Because, what if this is a dog that is being imported? Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljrphoto Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 But if the dog is ISDS registered and then an AKC championship is put on it, would it lose its ISDS registration?? Because, what if this is a dog that is being imported? Kathy I didn't think that you could register an imported dog with the AKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljrphoto Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 I just read "the fine print" on their website. I don't know how anyone manages to navigate all of their rules and exceptions. Something about DNA testing prior to registering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 I think that I have been told that the AKC does recognize the ISDS as one of the registries that they will accept from overseas. But I know, what a bunch of fine print and hoops to jump through just to register a dog with them. Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Yes, according to AKC's website, ISDS is a recognized foreign registry. You can register an imported dog, but it has to have permanent identification, like a tattoo or microchip, to confirm that it's the dog the papers say it is, and they started requiring DNA confirmation in March 2006. I looked at ISDS's website, but I couldn't see anything that said whether or not they'd revoke their registration on an AKC dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Ok, so, after I pm'd the OP and got the info, I (brazenly?) emailed the breeeder (a VERY big name from across the pond, and, since I've never met the man, I did the appropriate amount of sucking up in my email ), and got a very cordial response this morning. Basically, he said that as long as no one tells him what to breed or how, when he sells a pup, as long as it is well cared for, then it is no longer his business. So there it is, Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 OK, so now what I don't get is why someone would want to spend all that money on what I would assume to be a potentially really good working dog, and then show it AKC. Doesn't really make sense, Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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