sheep?

[Daviid]

My

[kajarrel]

THANK YOU for your message. I feel exactly the same way, although we do have sheep. I think a lot of people loose sight of the fact that sheep are living animals that deserve to be treated humanely (as livestock). Sheep are a huge commitment and, depending upon your set-up, management style and situation, can be a lot of work. I personally feel that people should only get sheep if they want sheep. There are so many other ways to expose your border collies to sheep, if you're so inclined, that it's not necessary to own your own.

 

One of our biggest problems is getting away. My job does require occasional travel and it's nice to see family from time to time . . Single day trips aren't a problem. But multiple day trips are. We have more animals than just sheep (4 horses, 5 dogs, etc.) so we end up hiring someone to house sit when we go away. Problem is getting someone that can handle the day-to-day tasks and problems. Dog handling skills are a must. Right now I have 2 people that can do this for me . . . but they've got livestock of their own, and are in demand, so it takes some planning. . .

 

If you want the land to be used, you could allow someone to graze their sheep (or other animals) on your property or rent out the pastures for hay or other crops. My advice is don't rush . . . see how things go.

 

Kim

[Smokjbc]

As someone who rents land and keeps sheep for my dogs- I have to offer another view here. Whether you have the sheep for the dogs or rent vs. own your own place for livestock does not mean that you think of sheep as disposable creatures or enjoy having sheep any less than those who make a living off keeping sheep. Nor does owning sheep for the dogs mean that they mistreated or handled inhumanely. I have owned sheep specifically to work dogs with for 10 years. I have grown to love and respect the sheep as much as the dogs. They are handled with care and appreciated both for the work they provide for my dogs and for just "themselves". Any person who wants to train these dogs MUST consider the sheep first- few people on top (and I'm still far from it ) get there without respecting the livestock and having great stockmanship- regardless of their property owner or shepherd status.

 

I do agree that having the sheep just for the dogs does remove the necessity of considering the bottom line and for the unscrupulous- that could create an enviroment of abuse or misuse. However, I know plenty of people who keep sheep for the dogs and manage them humanely and with appreciation.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think it comes down to, do you like sheep? If you like sheep, or think you might like them, get them! Everything else seems favorable for an excellent setup there, as you outlined.

 

I would like to point out that although it's true that sheep are not disposable in the sense that one should abuse them and throw their lives away gratuitously - you can "experiment" if you are not sure whether you would like sheep raising, by bringing in feeder/stockers for a few months. Since you have enough space and the facilities already, the sheep will be comfortable enough while you learn the ropes. And in a few months you can decide whether sheep fit into your lifestyle, and market them if the answer is "no".

 

I agree with Jaime - I've found that more people who keep "sheep for dogs" fall into the opposite fault of being almost too kind to their stock. Sheep can be hateful beasts at times, but you have to be pretty hard hearted not to yield to their charms if you keep them around long enough.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

By the way, my weanlings are packing their bags and want to know where you live, David!

[Dixie_Girl]

Many times people will get sheep for their dogs to work and it grows into a monster! LOL I am speaking specifically about a guy I know who is "retired" and he got some sheep for his dogs to train for trialing. He now has a sheep farm! He has a standing order for 100 sheep a year from someone in FL! So, I just wanted to give a little warning!

[kajarrel]

Let me clarify, I was not saying that people who get sheep to work their dogs WILL abuse the sheep. In fact I have a fairly liberal view of the range of care that is OK. Instead, I was responding to the attitude (not exposed by Jaime or Rebecca) that if you have a border collie you need accesssory sheep - or that no thought needs to be given in obtaining them - and I was agreeing with Daviid's more thoughtful approach. I guess I'm not in sync with this list . . .

 

Kim

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I guess I'm not in sync with this list . . .

Nay. We're saying the same thing from different angles! Probably no one remembers a little over a year ago when I got into a bit of a spat with someone for exactly this:

 

if you have a border collie you need accesssory sheep - or that no thought needs to be given in obtaining them

But I didn't see that reflected in David's post in the least bit. Quite the opposite.

 

I'm a sheep rights fanatic and I'll admit to being highly suspicious when a wide-eyed Border collie owner starts seeking ways to "collect" sheep. I can name a couple people who have sheep who have them "for the dogs" and I personally think the sheep would be better off somewhere where they were better appreciated. But I don't think that's the norm.

 

I do try to give benefit of doubt and as I said I've learned over the years that the sheep have a way of wiggling their way into front and center, even if they didn't START there.

 

I think David is fine and I didn't have any squeamishness about the fact that he happens to have Border collies, because he starts with a farmer's heart. He has a farm, he's thinking of ways to diversify and extend the productivity of his place. I know someone who grazed orchards with sheep and ended up making more on the sheep than the orchards. Ditto another acquaintance that used sheep between chicken houses. I'm not saying you'll get rich off the sheep but "dog toys" is not the only reason for an arborist to bring in sheep!

 

I knew I'd get a farm from the time I was a little girl reading Bob Son of Battle, but I had Border collies for two years before I ever got my first sheep. Ben was nearly three by then! We wanted to make sure we knew what we were doing (somewhat), had the fencing in place, and had our dogs ready to help us (we thought).

 

Again, I don't think the order matters so much as whetheryou like sheep. Maybe that is vague - I don't mean like them like you like chocolate, but like them enough to stand in the pouring rain thunderstorm with tornado watch and collect that one stupid lamb that went down to the pond but you can't let out his mom because she's getting sheared the day after tomorrow so you've got to do it the hard way and your dog is exhausted already from worming the flock earlier and dividing up and setting out yearlings for training. Or you like sheep enough to stand in a packed pen with your pants soaked through with urine-smelling wool and it's 20 degrees with a steady 25 mph wind, to do pre-lambing shots. Or you like them enough to hold a twelve hour-old lamb while it draws its last breath because he was rejected by his mom, and know you'll be burying it and shipping its mom, whom you remember being born and noticing the really cool markings and feeling full of hope.

 

And of course you have to love lambie races . . .

 

. . .the feel and smell of warm freshly sheared fleece . . .

 

. . . the cool murmuring noise a mama ewe makes when she cleans off her lamb. . .

 

. . . a fine young ram in all his glory . . .

 

. . .the fact that they are pretty much the most humble, unassuming, undemanding sort of livestock you can raise, after all.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with the folks who say if you like sheep and would like to keep livestock, then don't let the fact that you have dogs deter you from that. You can keep sheep without *ever* working dogs on them. The woman I bought my karakul ram from (and more recently a gorgeous ewe) has lots of pasture and doesn't use a dog--her sheep are bucket trained or simply come when she calls--food or not.

 

I actually found that I work my dogs *less* now that I have sheep--we do the chore work that is necessary, but I rarely work them just to work them (as opposed to, say, going to a friend's house and working dogs for the sake of working dogs).

 

I think it's a shame when folks get livestock of any sort if they also don't like and respect them. I know someone who has sheep and admits to not liking them. As a result I think those sheep are not treated as well as they could be. Of course there's the other end of the spectrum too--she "sheep as pets" folk. By this I mean the people who treat their sheep as they would their foo-foo dogs--it's cute when the sheep are little lambs, but not so cute when those same sheep reach 200 pounds and have no respect for the human's personal space. But try convincing such people of that....

 

I admit that my border collies prompted me to get my sheep, BUT since my childhood upbringing on a small farm (horses, goats, poultry) I have always wanted to be involved in rare breed conservation. The dogs just helped give me the extra push I needed to take the plunge (well, that and a bottle lamb that was foisted off on me). The fact is, if I had wanted sheep strictly for working the dogs, I wouldn't have nearly the amount of money invested in my flock as I do now.

 

I find sheep fascinating. Relaxing to watch. Interesting and individual personalities. I'm also learning about fleeces and finding my own niche for what I want to do with *my* fleeces.

 

So it's all in how you approach it. If you like sheep and don't mind the work of caring for them, then why not try it? If you find it's more than you want to deal with, you can always sell them again. And if you have a favorite breed or breeds, it gives you a chance to learn more about them. If that favorite breed also happens to be a rare or minor breed, then you would also be doing a good thing for maintaining genetic diversity among sheep! Not to mention that getting sheep can introduce you to all sorts of new people (fellow shepherds).

 

Given the size of your farm and the other things you produce there, you can also look at sheep as saving you from having to mow that pasture. Some of my sheep are actually on my neighbor's neighbor's 4-acrfe field because they asked if we would put them there to keep the grass down and save them from having to mow....

 

J.

[kajarrel]

OK - I don't want Daviid to think that I thought he (she?) wasn't being thoughtful. I actually thought he/she WAS thoughtful and was applauding them for it. I'm just muddling more and more.

 

Sorry folks . . .

 

Kim

[Smokjbc]

Hey,

 

I just wanted to pipe up and share that its "ok" to have the sheep for the dogs and it doesn't mean you aren't doing the right thing. I also agree that David's place sounds like sheep heaven (and heaven for me to!!) and I know my sheep would be glad to put up with a few well mannered dogs in order to live there.

 

Right now I'm tickled with my "super-ewe" Gretchen who has had three solid years of great twins and gave me triplets yesterday. Not just triplets, mind you, but HUGE triplets and she's happy to take care of every one of them. I am as proud of her as I am when one of my dogs makes it around the course and doesn't embarrass me . (She's the squatty red one in the middle in my avator). Her son is my new ram and he's just the nicest ram- not a mean bone in his body- just wants to hang with his chicks LOL. Sheep are so much fun to watch and definitely worth keeping around just for the lamb races.

[Bill Fosher]

David,

 

My advice to you is to consider the sheep as an enterprise on the farm -- looking at how they would consume resources and what return they would provide on those resources.

 

From a strictly farm resource management perspective, sheep are a high-input, high-output means of utilizing your pasture resource. Of the food animals that you could graze on your pasture, sheep will produce more pounds of meat per acre and more dollars per acre than cattle or goats. However, sheep require a great deal of management -- more than cattle and comparable to goats.

 

So if your reseources are an abundance of grass and some time for managment, sheep could be a very good choice for you. If you're relatively close to urban centers where lamb is marketed, so much the better.

 

My personal opinion is that sheep should be checked every day without fail. If you're away for three to five days, you'll need to make arrangements for someone to look in on them.

 

It sounds like your pastures are wonderful with water sources etc. But I don't know where you are, and I don't know how much land we're talking about.

 

I have set up a forum for discussion of sheep production on my web site, and you're more than welcome there. http://www.edgefieldsheep.com/bb

 

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Daviid]

Thank-you all for your thoughtful replies; what I wanted was some insight and other thoughts, we're in no rush to anything right now.

 

We got several emails about renting pastures from us, turns out we even knew some of the people. We are going investigate that path, looks like that may be the way to go- for us. We do like our travels away, that was one of the concerns. But also providing the best possible care for livestock from beginners.

 

Jamie- you're right about what you've said- "Whether you have the sheep for the dogs or rent vs. own your own place for livestock does not mean that you think of sheep as disposable creatures or enjoy having sheep any less than those who make a living off keeping sheep."

 

I do know of people that rent land just so their dogs can work sheep and they can trial,the sheep are not treated properly. I just think sheep or any livestock needs to come first, not getting ahead on the trial field.

 

Thank-you Bill,informative post, will give that website a look.

Thank-you-all

David

[Jordi44]

I'm a sheep person that got hooked on BC's years after starting with sheep. I have a male I'll trade you - he thinks he knows how to herd (comes from good lines) but has never been trained properly and I have the type of sheep that would rather eat, or at least just stare at, a dog than move for him - so with blind leading blind and stubborn sheep, we don't really herd. Anyhow, having sheep can be as much trouble or as easy as you want to make it. I'd suggest keeping your numbers low if you get any - just for the fact that it's easier to handle and learn with a few than going too gung ho. I'd start with 6-12 ewe lambs - females under a year. Learn the basics as they grow up and then add a ram and start breeding next year if you want - or just happily raise wool without lambs and have some sheep to work and help keep pastures down a bit.

 

A book that has some good general info is "The Sheep Raiser's Manual" by William K Kruesi. I think you can find it at places like TSC and Big R. There are probably some others just as good. Don't be overwhelmed - sheep basically need water, feed, and some sort of shelter from wind and wet. Ideally you worm 3 or 4 times a year. Check with your vet or other sheep people in your area to see what they do/recommend on worming, vaccinations, etc.

 

As far as being gone, sounds like you're in a good area to have "sheep sitters". I have a pet sitter that is thrilled to come and feed my sheep, horses, and poultry (she also does the dog and cats including litterboxes). I don't have a dog to walk, so it doesn't take her any longer than places that she has to take a dog out plus it's something different. She charges $20 per visit and I have her come once a day. It works out fine, in fact, I feel better having her take care of my gang than when my husband is home with them. If you ask, you might have neighbors that would be glad to do it - offer to pay them for their time or exchange favors (maybe they need a sitter or some help with something else, or would like the chance to "borrow" your sheep to work their dog).

 

If you want sheep, try it. Like I said, start small with young animals - by the end of the summer, you'll have your answer. If you decide sheep aren't for you, then you still have some relatively marketable animals and aren't out much more than time - and you know whether sheep are for you or not. There's nothing wrong with having sheep and having a dog to work them. You might find you enjoy the sheep as much as working the dogs. And just because you have sheep and work your dogs on them doesn't mean you have to take them to trials. If you don't want to, just enjoy them at home. It's the same as someone who has a horse because they enjoy having them, or just like to ride - but would never dream of showing. Sheep are the same way - you can just have them for whatever reason, or you can get into showing them (very addictive). Obviously you've been thinking about this, look around at some of the breeds (I prefer the wool breeds myself), and then try picturing some of them out on your pasture. Then picture yourself having to care for them and see if it seems doable or even enjoyable. Some mornings, it's a blessing to go out and feed - less stress and gets me away from a husband and 8-yr-old that drive me over the edge from time to time. Other mornings, it's the sheep, dogs, goat, or horses that I want to strangle. It goes that way - but I still enjoy them.

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Jordi44,

 

If I dewormed my sheep three or four times a year, they'd probably all be dead by the third time. In some places, sheep need to be wormed every three weeks, and sometimes (like last August in Western Massachusetts) even that isn't enough.

[Mona Howard]

I have a retired older horse. My sheep are

moved about on three pastures about every 30

days. After the sheep move off the pasture #1

the horse is in pasture number 3. In one month

the sheep go into pasture number 2 and the horse

goes into pasture number 1. If this is not too

confusing I am trying to let a pasture rest 30

days after the sheep are out and then to follow

them with the horse to hopefully eat up the sheep

worm larve which is harmless to the horse. Also the sheep eventually follow the horse back into the same pasture and eat the horse's worm larvae

that were not killed during the 30 days in a pasture without a host. I still hit them with a

wormer every 30 days 24-48 hours before moving into the new pasture. After the first hard frost they are wormed a final time for the winter. When lambing comes they are wormed again while in the jugs. So far this has worked for me and I don't have to worm more that every 30 days. Mona

[Jordi44]

Boy am I glad I live in Indiana. Here, we should worm our sheep at least 2 times a year - 3 or 4 preferred; mine are lucky to get it once every 2 or 3 years. I know it's terrible, but I hate doing it. I have to do it alone, my sheep are bigger than I am, and some of those old girls are just nasty (not to mention lack of handling equipment). Bolus or drench (hah, wish I could use boluses - have too much immunity to most bolus type wormers around here), but either way, I'm either shoving it down 2 or 3 times or wearing it. I do use Valbazen individually as needed. Our worst problem here seems to be liver flukes. Had it diagnosed several years ago and have learned the signs. 1 or 2 doses usually clears it up - and seems like not all of the flock has a problem - just one or two in the spring and fall. Sure wish someone would come up with a reliable way of feeding wormer in the feed - or that I would find it if there is. Only thing worse than shoving wormer down my sheep is trying to shove it down my horse - now that's wicked.

[Bill Fosher]

"Reliable" and "medicated feed" do not go together, particularly with sheep.

 

I went to one sheep dairy that fed its sheep a total mixed ration that included chopped grass/legume silage, corn meal, soybean meal, salt, and a mineral mix. All the ingredients were thoroughly mixed and fed into a manger.

 

The sheep could sort out the soybean meal. They would eat the silage, corn, salt, and mineral and leave a line of soybean meal, just as pretty as you please, in front of them.

[hastyreply]

The advice my husband gave one of the Doctors he works with, who'd just bought some ranch land was: When asked should he get cattle for it, my husband told him to go work cattle one weekend with one of the other Docs who had cattle and see how he liked it. He did that, didn't like it and leased his land out. So maybe if you can go help someone work their sheep one weekend and see just what is involved that'll help you out.