Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 I had a discussion with some folks a while back, and the subject came up about payback at trials. How much does it influence a handler about the trials he/she enters? Does it attract "better" handlers? Do some trials "owe" payback to the handlers? Please give me your feedback, I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 I know I am gonna catch alot of flack here, but yes to me it matters. I do this full time, and while my husband pays the bulk of the bills, my income supports the sheep, my trialing and farm expenses. If I am lucky enough to be in the prize list at a trial, it sure helps ease expenses if there is some payback for gas etc. While it might not influence me to not go to a trial, if I had to make a choice over a trial that offers and one that doesnt, I am going to the one that does.(assuming all things are equal such as the sheep and how good the course is) I also feel very strongly that at my trial, I pay back 100% after expenses. I think it is only fair that after trialing all year at other peoples trials and if I place I take part of their money that they get the same oppertunity at mine. You can sure go broke in a hurry trying to trial and train dogs for a living, if it were not for my husband, I couldnt do it...so every little bit helps. I was very distressed to see that this years Mountpelier trial was voted to pay for a handlers dinner vs giving payback in the open. While I guess I can see Novice handlers point of view and I do understand it is a club trial...but what the heck is the point of working your ass off to get to open if you cant enjoy some of the perks...ie sleeping late and payback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest herbertholmes Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 my wife ,Alison and I do not get to go to all the trials we want to, but we have to be carefull and choose the trials taht at least pay back decent money in the open. we cannot afford to go and not break even on the entry fees, and hopefully some gas money. And, no matter what some folks say, the big money trials attract alot of handlers. i do not know if it is good or bad, but that is the way it seems to be..herbert holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Well Howdy Mr Holmes fancy meeting you here...Long time no see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Hello Hub! Â I guess I gotta stop bad mouthing you around these parts. Â charlie torre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Debbie, Â for Renee and I it does not matter about payback (since we rarely get much and don't rely on it); HOWEVER, the entry fees should reflect the lack of payback. We will not pay about $40 to run in a trial that does not payback; $15-$20 is more appropriate for no payback. Â Since I have a feeling where this question came from I'd also like to add that if the entry fees are to be used to pay for something for all handlers, then all handlers should pay the same amount over what it costs for their runs. In other words NN entries should be how much it costs to put on a NN run (sheep rental, judge, set-out, etc) plus flat fee and the entry for Open should be cost for open run (sheep rental, judge, set-out, etc) plus the same flat fee. I'd also like some consideration for those who enter multiple dogs as compared to those who enter 1 dog. Why should Open handlers (or those with multiple dogs) pay more for something than a NN handler (or those with 1 dog) has to pay for that same item? Â Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Sam, I agree with you and I don't think you will catch flack from your reply. Â I don't do this full time, but yes to me it matters as well. Payback does help ease expenses for gas, hotels, etc. And I also agree with Sam's statement "while it might not influence me to not go to a trial, if I had to make a choice over a trial that offers and one that doesn't, I am going to the one that does(assuming all things are equal such as the sheep and how good the course is)". Â There is a trial in GA the same weekend as Montpelier (U.S. Open Stockdog Championships) that has pretty good payback. I'd say a majority of the Open handlers that have supported Montpelier in the past will go to the GA trial because there is no payback at Montpelier. Â Sam has excellent payback at her trial, as did Seclusival last year when Sam/Robin ran the show. That is a big draw for handlers when deciding what trials to go to. If I am correct, there was even payback in Pro Novice and Ranch as well. Â It is a thoughtful gesture to want to have a handler's dinner paid for from entry fees, but if the handler's are paying for it, shouldn't the majority of the handler's want to go to a handler's dinner in the first place? Â As Mark stated, if entry fees are going towards something for all handler's, then ALL handlers should be paying the same entry fee (with the expeception of possibly adding the $2 sanctioning fee for Open/Nursery). If there is no payback, why are Open handler's asked to pay more than Novice handler's? Â Here is a hypothetical: say the set out person is paid hourly (which I know they are not, but this is just an example). The set out person has to walk even farther up the field to set out for Novice than they do for Open, so therefore shouldn't the Novice handlers have to pay a higher entry fee for that extra time required by the set out person? Just a hypothetical, so don't think I am singling out Novices! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I don't have a lot to add to what Sam and Christine and others have said. I agree payback does matter. You get more/better Open handlers from further away coming to the trial. Club or fun trials have their place but if i have the choice, i'll go to a money trial. Even if i dont bring home prize money, i usually get to watch better dogs and handlers and that's always a useful thing for me. A trial with no payback really is just a training trial to me and sometimes that's useful but i'd usually rather spend the money and gas on going somewhere else new to train, where i get more bang for the buck training wise since i'm not limited to about 8 minutes per dog per day. I'm sorry to hear Montpelier is going to the no payback model. It'll end up being heavier on novice runs and lighter on Open runs and that's a shame with the huge crowds that watch that trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Originally posted by Shoofly:It'll end up being heavier on novice runs and lighter on Open runs and that's a shame with the huge crowds that watch that trial. Good point Robin. I wonder if handler's have thought about why Open is always the last class at trials that have a large spectator draw? Mid to late day is when the crowd is the heaviest. Trial hosts do not want the crowds to see "train wrecks". Not that Open handler's do not have wrecks, but they are fewer and far between than in the Novice classes. Now, again... I am NOT bashing Novices, I asked that question two years ago at Montpelier myself and that was the answer that was given to me by one of the trial people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Okay, I'll take the other side, sort of. I trial on a shoestring (as many of you know--no hotel fees for me!) and have no illusions about making a living from trialing or training dogs. And although I'm as happy as anyone to get payback when one is offered, I am just as likely to attend a trial with a *lower entry fee* and no payback than a trial with a great payback and higher entries, especiually if it's a trial I have enjoyed in the past. So based on the shoestring thing: Montpelier is certainly closer than Dawsonville and with gas prices and my finances as they are, I know where I'll go (unless some other issues rear their ugly heads). Â And my choices are probably colored by the fact that I can't expect that I will end up in the money when I attend a trial. So I make my choices based on the reasons already stated, mainly that I can afford it and it's a trial I've enjoyed in the past. Â Mark makes a good point, and I've made a similar one to at least some local board members. I haven't been at this long, but I clearly remember being told on numerous occasions that the reason open entry fees were so much higher than those for the novice classes was because open offered payback (the implication being that the extra $$ in the entry went directly back to some open handlers' pockets in the form of paybacks). So I feel strongly that if open fees are going to be significantly higher than the fees in the lower clases, then open handlers should expect payback. Likewise, if payback is going to be offered in lower classes, then the entry fees for those classes should reflect that by being higher. In other words, it's not right to charge a handler in N/N $15 per run and an open handler $40 per run and then give payback at both levels. The only way I would find this acceptable is if the money used for payback in each class came directly, and only, from the entry fees for that class. Â And if we're discussing Montpelier specifically, then I think that the idea to have a handler's dinner was made in the spirit of inclusiveness/camaraderie, BUT most trials that have handler's dinners actually require folks to pay to attend as a means of offsetting the cost of providing that dinner. I have to say that VBCA is one of the few organizations that routinely offers free handler's suppers at their trials and I'm not going to complain about that! That doesn't mean it has to happen at every trial, but I don't think VA is losing $$, so I hope that little perk would stay for, say, the trials that also host member meetings. Â So with respect to that one trial, I would hope that the open entry fees reflect the lack of payback and that the significantly higher fees that open handlers pay are not what's being used to fund dinner for all. I can barely afford to feed myself right now, and I would resent having to feed a bunch of other folks through my higher entries. At least if a trial host charges a separate fee for dinner, I have a choice about whether to spend my $$ on food. Â All that said, I can understand the views of those on the other side of the fence. And if I were trying to make a living from this or actually had the means to do more trialing and the traveling associated with it, and IF I actually consistently placed in the $$, I would feel quite differently about choosing trials based on payback. But even now if I'm paying those higher entries in open it would be nice to know that there's a chance, however small, to earn some of that back (which I guess means I'm not really on the other side after all). Â J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Yep, and the solution is to use sheep that are more cooperative (unlike the wool sheep that were used at Montpelier for years) so it'll be a "pretty show" for the spectators and the less experienced dogs. Â I guess that's okay, the folks putting on the trial are mostly novice handlers so they probably should get the benefit from the trial. Sort of smacks of the trials we see from the *** organization though. Â I'm not bashing novices either, really i'm not (so don't beat me up!). But if there's no payback and the sheep and field aren't a good training challenge (the things that WILL bring Open handlers out even for no payback) you aren't going to draw Open handlers, or least not the more competitive Open handlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Originally posted by Shoofly:But if there's no payback and the sheep and field aren't a good training challenge (the things that WILL bring Open handlers out even for no payback) you aren't going to draw Open handlers, or least not the more competitive Open handlers. And that's a sad result for the rest of us who don't really have the means to go to the big $$ trials. So the "newer" open handlers lose out too. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I agree Julie. There's a real benefit for "new" Open handlers to run on better sheep against stiffer competition. It's a real learning experience to get out of the little pond and into the big one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I gotta have the payback. Â I need that $20 check once in a (great) while to convince my wife to let me continue spending about $18000/month on dog-related stuff, move onto a little farm in the absolute middle of nowhere, etc. But I think she's getting wise to me. Unfortunately, every time I try to jump into the big pond I sink like a stone and need CPR. Â charlie torre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Now some people will look at the running order for the Highland trial this weekend and say "Wow, look at all those Open handler's going to a no payback trial." But, most of us have not been to many, if any, trials since last fall and that trial itch is needing to be scratched. That's why it has a big draw - it is early in the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Yep, this weekend is a "knock the dust off" kind of trial for me. And my dogs and i have *lots* of dust from the winter.... I've never run at Don's before and i hear the sheep are a good challenge. Â You'll also notice that there aren't a lot of handlers travelling from a great distance to the trial. Compare the running order to the Bluegrass order to see what i mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordersprings Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I am curious about peoples perspective of "what constitutes payback"? Meaning, there are trials like Sam's where she pay's back 100% after expenses, some payback 100% of entry fees, some have a mystery formula where the payback seems exceptionally small compared to the entries, and of course some have none at all. Â One of my reasons for asking "what do you all want/expect in payback" is to get some perspective on the flip side question - "how much do you think a trial host should be able to make for a weekend trial"? And if we need/want more trials, don't we need to have some incentive for trial hosts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordersprings Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 By the way, I have been comnsidering strongly, based upon some's plea, to have a very small entry fee trial with lots of libations, steak and lamb dinner, no awards (well, almost no awards) - but hopefully a relaxing time with friends. From my perspective it seems that I am comfortable with the extremes - do it like Sam (which is hard to beat) or make it an extermely casual and low-key event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Craig, Â I like doing a bit of both types: low key and big time. Â Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I like both types as well, as long as the entry fees reflect the amount of payback to expect. Didn't know you were coming Robin. Look forward to seeing you there! Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Hey Craig - i've been thinking about this a bit. I tend to be a big believer in truth in advertising. Look at any entry form i've ever put together and you'll see that i put info on everything down to what color socks the judge will be wearing. I think as long as you say up front what payback is expected to be, you're ok. That said, i've organized (or been responsible for the money anyway) some pretty big and successful trials and have never lost money on any (1st VA Finals benefit trial, Cooper Krieder Benefit, Seclusival Benefit, Oak Ridge, Seclusival, Sam's, etc.). Those last 3 had good to excellent payback as well. But you have to keep a really tight control on the budget to have that happen unless you can get good sponsorship. So, i guess what i'm trying to say is that there's room for lots of different "paybacks" as long as it's spelled out beforehand to entrants. It's really, really disappointing to win a trial with a large entry and not even cover your entry fees for the day with the payback, and not know it's going to be that way beforehand. Trust me, i've seen some pissed off people when that happens. And yeah, you can vote with your feet and not come back, but still. Â I don't mind at all the idea of a host making something putting on a trial. But i really like the idea of 100% payback of entry fees in the Open class and strongly feel payback should go to the top 20% of placings. I think the only way to accomplish all of that is to have sponsors though. I've not had the luxury of anything but small sponsorship in organizing a trial, so it's possible to have a good payback without it. I'm not sure you can have a good payback and also have money go to the host without it. Â Anyway, i think there's room for lots of different kinds of trials and some are worth going to for reasons other than payback. The trials at your place last year were nice for the company, the field, the sheep, and the food. But we all knew going in what to expect so it was okay. I think if hosts want to *make* money, it's going to require sponsors and i think that's okay too - if you put the effort into *getting* the sponsor, you should get payback yourself from it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 One more thing that keeps running through my head with this thread -- Â If you build it (the payback), they will come.... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke Posted April 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 I'll be at Highland 19th Occasional this weekend, you know where I'll be (with the sheep). This is a very special trial, one that I think people come to like pilgrims to a Holy Land. Hope this isn't sacriligeous. I am very much enjoying the debate here. I like Craig's question too...that deserves some ideas. Â Looking forward to seeing you all. I'm leaving in, hmm...20 minutes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Hey Debbie - see you there! It's my first time to get over there. I'm so glad it's gone to 2 days. It was just too far for a 1 day trial for me. Â Always glad to know you're handling the sheep. We'll know they've been treated well up in that pen, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debp Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Regarding doing the handlers dinner vs payback for Montpelier, Julie was pretty much dead on. Please, please, VBCA members - speak to the board if you disagree or agree or have suggestions or wish to help out (i.e. so Montpelier isn't just run by novices), etc. This VBCA board seems to be very open to everyone's ideas! (I'm on it this year and so is the other Debbie (C.) and the other Debbie (J)!) I'll also be at the trial this weekend, so seek me out too! I'll be the one crashing during my Ranch run I don't want to turn this into a VBCA thread, so I'll sign out now. But first, look at the VBCA website - we're going to have a fun trial where the sheep and farm rental are being donated and the jobs will be, hopefully, volunteers from membership.....Handlers dinner included, runs will be $5 for novice classes and $7 for OPEN. I hope everyone likes the idea and will come and enjoy even though there will obviously be no payback. I hope we don't turn into a two tier club. The novice handlers (me!) learn alot from trials where there are experienced Open Handlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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