Opposing CKC recognition of the border collie in Canada

[blackacre]

Friends of the border collie:

 

Please help us preserve our breed as a working dog in Canada and add your name to the petition. Every vote counts.

 

Extract from an email from the Secretary of the CBCA (Canadian Border Collie Association):

 

<< In our effort to keep the border collie out of CKC [Canadian Kennel Club] conformation I have created an online petition - it would really help if you were to sign it - numbers are important.

 

You can find the petition at

 

Petition Opposing Border Collies in CKC Conformation >>

 

Also, please, if you know of any CKC members that might be willing to help, ask them to vote no in the CKC poll in February, March.

 

Andrea de Kenedy

[juliepoudrier]

Note that you must be a resident of Canada to sign the petition.

 

J.

[KrisK]

Hi Julie,

 

You can still send letters to our Minister of Agriculture. I've put a post in the 'General Border Collie Discussion' regarding this as well.

[KrisK]

I've signed the petition and will cross post to as many folks as I can.

I was hoping to find a couple of really good working dogs pictures which will show just how far from the 'standard' most people think of when they hear BC. I don't know if that's possible but at least showing people how varied a REAL BC is, might help. At least it's worth a try.

[astraea]

Ironically, the group that is attempting to add the Border Collie to the CKC calls itself "The Friends of the Border Collie" :mad:

 

At a CKC conformation show this past weekend, there were posters plastered all over the place urging CKC members to "Say yes to the Border Collie"

 

Part of the literature states "If the application is passed by CKC members, Border Collie owners will be able to choose whether they wish to participate in CKC events or not. As it stands, a few Border Collie owners with a vested interest in the CBCA have made a NO decision for all of us."

 

I just checked the On-line petition to the Minister of Agriculture which now stands at over 250 signatures. Surely, that is not a few BC owners.

 

I cannot see anywhere that it states that you must be a resident of Canada to sign, other than the fact that it asks for your province. There are some signees from the US.

 

However, we have no voice within the CKC. Some members who I have approached to vote No, have been sympathetic to our cause, but the majority have the same CKC/AKC mindset and have replied with antagonism.

[KrisK]

Yesterday when I signed, there was mention of Canadian citizens only. I didn't see that today.

I'm sending out emails to my friends, family, co-workers, virtually everyone I can think of to get either a signature on the petition or a letter to the Minister.

Almost all the CKC people I know participate in obedience and not conformation. I'm hoping to appeal to them by getting them to look at this site for one and the BC museum as well.

At least I can try to get them to see the light.

[juliepoudrier]

It says this right under the great big type stating you've read the petition and want to sign:

"Eligible signatories: Residents of Canada "

(I just checked again, and the statement is still there.)

 

What that means is that all the folks from the US who are signing are ineligible to sign. Their signatures probably won't count, and so only make it look like more people have signed when in fact those "votes" don't count.

 

Thanks Kris for the info on sending a letter. I'll do that.

 

J.

[KrisK]

Thanks Julie...I need MY reading skills improved

 

However, I did check the signatures listed and there are only 7 from the US so the majority are Canadians which is a good thing.

 

Thanks for taking time to write a letter. I think every letter will count.

[kaos]

signed it

[borderlicious]

I signed, but I'm also writing a letter in case my vote doesn't count.

[Sue R]

Now, do I understand that, if CKC "accepts" the Border Collie, CBCA will still remain (by law) the only registry and therefore, within CBCA, you would have breeding by the "kennel club set" for conformation, obedience, dog sports, etc., as well as breeding for working ability by the "traditional" breeders? What a disaster!

[astraea]

Thanks Julie...I need MY reading skills improved

Me too! I didn't get to that page when I checked, and didn't remember the Canadian requirement from when I signed. My short term memory is shot!

 

Thanks.

 

Sue, I think that is exactly what the CBCA fears will happen.

[KrisK]

You might be interested in what the CBCA has posted on their website. http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/

 

I checked the petition today and it's up to 300 signatures now. Please ask all your Canadian friends, colleagues, family to take a second to sign. And then ask them to forward the petition link to THEIR friends...

 

Let's keep the pressure on...and maybe, just maybe, we can get the gov't to listen.

[blackacre]

Here's the latest from the Secretary of the CBCA. Please consider adding your name to the petition (you must be Canadian, as Julie points out) and forward to any Canadians who might be able to help:

 

<< Before you vote yes [edited to add: in favour of adding the border collie to the CKC Miscellaneous List] please read this:

 

CKC defends their standard for the border collie as it supposedly comes from the origination country (Britain), which is true but it does not come from the founding registry which is the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) which has been registering border collies since 1906. (However the APA does not state anywhere that anybody else but the association incorporated can define the characteristics of a breed here in Canada). The (UK) Kennel Club started registering border collies for show purposes and other Kennel Club venues in 1976 and adopted one of the Australian standards for doing so. There is a lot of arguments that showing in conformation would have no influence on working ability. Here is a quote from the Border Collie Club of Great Britain which is the breed club for BCs within the Kennel Club:

"At the time that the Border Collie Club of Great Britain approached the Kennel Club in 1973 to recognize the Border Collie and the KC eventually accepted the breed for the show ring in 1976, the Club and the KC were in full agreement that the status of full champion for the Border Collie should only be achieved if the dog could prove its ability to herd sheep. Otherwise the title gained by a Border Collie achieving three CCs would be that of Show Champion (Sh Ch}.

The KC put forward a herding and also made a proviso in their rules for a cattle test, should one be required at a later date.

 

An outrun of 200 yards (20 points)

Lift 5 sheep (10 points)

A Straight fetch past a post to handler (20 points)

A drive back to post maximum 100 yards (30 points)

A pen 12 x 6 with gate (20 points)

Total: 100 points Time allowed: 15 minutes

 

Exemption from the test would be granted to any dog qualifying for the National or International Sheep Dog Trials or gaining a 1st to 7th place at an open Sheepdog Trial affiliated to the ISDS. Several tests were arranged and several dogs took the tests at each session. Only 5 dogs ever passed the test, Ann Leigh with her dog Fordrought Fen and Heather Turner with Locheil Look North who also gained three CCs and therefore took the full title of Champion. This dog died in December 2004." (Italics are mine - 5 dogs in 40 years!).

 

Also in reading the Procedures manual from CKC re admitting a new breed onto the miscellaneous list:

 

"PROCEDURE RG004 -- Procedure for Recognition of New Breed

 

A. Adding a Breed to the Miscellaneous List

 

1. An application must be made in writing by one or more resident Canadian breeders or owners representing that breed. The application shall be accompanied by the following:

 

a) a written explanation of the level of interest in participation in Canadian Kennel Club events amongst the Canadian breeders and owners of the proposed listed breed including evidence of support of the application by those breeders and owners;"

 

What does this mean - 2%? 5%? - I would read it to mean a large proportion of these breeders and owners. CBCA as the breed club/ registry was never approached about this issue and when it found out that CKC was considering putting border collies on the miscellaneous list the president of CBCA, who speaks for breeders & owners of border collies in Canada, sent a letter to the CKC CEO and also the Chairman of the Board - indicating quite clearly that if such an application included the showing of border collies in conformation it was not supported by CBCA and as such by the owners and breeders of border collies in Canada.

 

Perhaps Procedures within CKC are just window dressing not to be taken seriously when it applies to the BOD? Such a decision should FIRST be made by owners and breeders of the border collie in Canada - vote no and send the applicants back to CBCA to decide it there FIRST.

 

 

Under the Animal Pedigree Act the registry for a breed is responsible for breed - improvement etc. This becomes impossible if another organisation is allowed to set a breed standard and show that animal in conformation. Conformation invariably leads to a breeding to the conformation standards and even more extreme to the specific likes and dislikes of conformation judges.

 

For this reason I have started a petition on the web - please sign and pass on.

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/bcnockc/petition.html

 

 

Werner >>

 

A

[KrisK]

I'm on another forum and this is one of the statements that has been printed there (the person is in favour of Border Collies in CKC)

 

The CBCA will registire a dog that was previousely NEVER registired if it can herd or win a championship trial or something or that nature. Now that dog might not even be pure, it coulds be crossed with god knows what. But if it looks like a border Collie and herd then they will give it a level A pedigree and say that it's pure.?

:eek: :mad:

 

I contacted Werner (CBCA) and have posted the correct registration information on that forum. I can only hope that she/he hasn't managed to convince too many people to her/his way of thinking!

[Sue R]

So, what's wrong with the concept that, if it looks like a Border Collie (and we can be pretty liberal on that) and proves it works like a good Border Collie (and we're not so liberal on that but rather strict), it can be registered as a Border Collie?

 

That sure beats the KC mindset that, if it's descended from registered Border Collies and has papers, it's a Border Collie - no matter what characteristics it's been bred for (looks, coat, color, pet temperament, agility, obedience, whatever) other than stockworking ability.

 

When are these people going to wake up and smell the manure?

[KrisK]

Hi Sue, The problem with the statement I quoted is that it is blatantly false and the person is using it to promote having Border Collies in CKC. The following is from the CBCA Registration information -

 

14.3 ELIGIBILITY FOR REGISTRATION

The following shall be eligible for registration with the Association, upon application in accordance with the terms of these By-laws:

 

(a) Any Border Collie born in Canada of a litter registered with the Association and any dog imported to Canada presenting a three (3) Purebred generation pedigree from a registry or stud book recognized by the Association. (emphasis added by me)

( The Association shall not accept for registration any foreign certified three generation pedigree (or export certificate) which reflects the presence of more than one sire or one dam for any particular mating or the presence of unknown or unregistered ancestors.

14.4 CLASSES

Dogs not previously registered shall be designated Section A or Section B according to the Canadian Border Collie Association Class of the sire and Dam or the Class of the original registry of the Sire and Dam. Section A shall comprise animals where both parents are Section A. Section B shall comprise animals where either parent is Section B.

 

Dogs previously registered will be assigned the Section of the original registry.

 

Initially, the following registries are recognized by the Association. Other registries will be considered by the Board on appeal.

 

SECTION A REGISTRIES

 

(a) International Sheepdog Society of Great Britain;

( American International Border Collie Registry, Inc.;

© American Border Collie Association;

(d) North American Sheep Dog Society.

SECTION B REGISTRIES

 

(a) United Kingdom Kennel Club;

( American Kennel Club;

© Australian Kennel Club

 

14.4A RECLASSIFICATION ON MERIT

A dog may be reclassified from Section B to Section A on sufficient proof of herding ability.

 

Herding Ability shall be established by the dog placing in the top ten of three Open Class Sheepdog trials each with a gather of not less than 250 yards and entries of more than 20 dogs. Each trial must be under a different judge. Trials will be sanctioned at the discretion of a committee.

 

Alternatively, the Directors may appoint a committee of three to asses the herding ability of the dog. The test shall take place at a venue established by the committee but not at the home farm of the dog or on its usual stock. The dog must demonstrate competence in the following elements: a gather of not less than 300 yards and a drive of not less than 100 yards. Committee members shall receive an honorarium to be established by the Board and to be paid by the petitioner."

 

I'm not familiar with how other registries work but I would assume there would be some requirement to show a pedigree from working lines?

And, the other problem is the CKC isn't following its own rules

[Sue R]

I was assuming that CBCA had something similar to the ABCA ROM program, which it appears you do. I didn't realize there were A and B sections although I see that a dog of unknown or partially unknown background could enter section A after adequate testing for ability.

 

So, yes, her statement is very false. I am afraid a lot of people believe their own misinformation either because they are ignorant or because they want to believe it. The point I wanted to make is that it's the work that makes the dog, not just the appearance or the paperwork. KC minds just don't get that.

[KrisK]

The point I wanted to make is that it's the work that makes the dog, not just the appearance or the paperwork. KC minds just don't get that.

I absolutely agree!

[GOOSEDOGS]

I think this was on Barb Ross's signature

 

Pedigree indicates what the animal should be,

Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be, BUT performance indicates what the animal actually is.

[Sue R]

Now that's neat!

[tessa_s212]

Originally posted by KrisK:

Yesterday when I signed, there was mention of Canadian citizens only.

I see the same thing.

 

I'm not a Canadian citizen. Can I still sign it?

[kajarrel]

Thought you all might be interested in tonight's "As It Happens" broadcast (http://www.cbc.ca/aih/latestshow.html) with Amanda Milliken.

 

Kim

[KrisK]

Thanks for posting that link. Unfortunately, I can't get the dang thing to open at my office computer

I'll be curious to see if they have any feedback regarding the item tonight.

[ShoresDog]

I listened to it on my computer on RealPlay. My disappointment with it was that I don't recall any introduction that presented Amanda's many trialing accomplishments. It was a nice interview, and it leaked out towards the end that the interviewer had grown up with border collies herself.