heres another one--

[Howdyjabo]

Do papers have any real meaning other than an official documentation of lineage-- and the oath to be giving honest information to be put into them???

 

We know that people think papers are some kind of validation for breeeding worthiness.

And shouldn't be thinking that.

 

But Should people be thinking that they are a "bill of sale" And legally need to have them.

 

Are you there Eileen???

What would ABCA stance be on if that lady with the puppy came to you and asked for you to involve the registry?

 

If someone kept papers as I do---

Would someone have to worry about me making use of them as Proof that the dog was mine-- just becasue I had possetion of them?

 

What would ABCA think about that-- would they support the person that had the papers in hand??

[juliepoudrier]

Karen,

Eileen might be at Barabara Ray's trial this weekend. She'll see this sooner or later though!

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Here's the way we've learned it works in NC. This is a very relevent issue for rescue since we so often deal with lost dogs.

 

Possession is 9/10ths - IF the person claiming the dog can prove the dog was lost or wrongfully taken from him, and IF the person can back up their claim that they actually owned the dog (through bill of sale, photographs, vet records, or permanent ID - preferably all of the above), then they MIGHT have a case.

 

Registration is not proof because the person in possession of the papers could easily be withholding them for their own pruposes that have nothing to do with who owns the dog.

 

Just a warning to everyone - get your dog permanently id'd and make a little folder with a current dated photograph showing you or a family member with the dog, plus vet records, rabies license, proof of tax or fees, and a copy of registration or adoption papers. In North Carolina if you "shelter" a dog for three days you are the legal owner and the onus is on the previous owner to prove ownership. I don't know what the law is in other states but North Carolina is not what you'd call radical.

 

I update my folders every time we travel or board. I also include an outline of the dog's physical appearance and stats, personality, quirks, feeding schedule, sleeping preferences, and any medical needs or conditions.

[Howdyjabo]

I am kinda thinking for example

 

If someone went to the DMV and asked them if a vehicle registration was proof of ownership- and are the papers used as proof of ownership -and is their system and records set up to ensure that the registration papers are useable as proof of ownership.

 

I think their answer would be Yes on all

 

I don't think ABCA would answer Yes if asked those questions in regards to dogs that they register.

 

And from what Becca said it seems the legal system agrees that the papers are not a bill of sale.

 

But I wonder if you randonmly asked ABCA members If they would feel that the papers are useable as a legal document-and proof of ownership// the answer would be yes.

[ancira]

I had my BC Chula stolen from me a couple of months ago, I never found her, but while I was looking for her and investigating what legal actions I could take if I did find her (she wasn't registered, so she had no papers). The first thing they said was the papers, photos and vet records.

So I think its really important to have those.

I don't know how it is in the US, but here in Mexico you can register a dog and have him chipped and tatooed. Obviously the papers have no lineage, IOW it isn't a pedigree, just a proof of ownership in case something like this happens.

 

Ancira

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I was in Canada at Amanda Milliken's trial this past weekend, and had to go directly from there to New Haven, CT because of a death in the family. This has been my first (very hurried) chance to check the boards since last Friday morning. I will probably not be able to respond to this before I get home again late on Thursday, but in the meantime could somebody clarify what the issue is? Who is "that lady" and what has she done? I know the answer is probably on the boards somewhere -- I just haven't had an opportunity to check every thread. Thanks.

[Howdyjabo]

No hurry...........

wait till you are home and get bored.

 

"that lady" is having trouble getting papers for her pup---breeder is the hangup.

[Eileen Stein]

I'll answer this as best I can, although I'm still not sure what the situation is.

 

As far as the ABCA is concerned, the person in whose name the dog is registered is the owner of the dog. When the dog is transferred, the registered owner signs the transfer of ownership form in the lower left corner of the certificate, and when that transfer of ownership is submitted to the ABCA the person whose name is filled in as the new owner becomes the owner of the dog.

 

As far as the law is concerned, I suppose it would usually come up by the person who claims to own the dog but doesn't have it suing the person who does have it. In that case, the judge would consider all the evidence -- including the testimony of each side, and including the type of evidence Becca referred to, AND including the registration papers (which would be some evidence of ownership but not conclusive evidence of ownership) -- and decide the matter as best s/he could.

 

Hope this helps.