Doug Boyder Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 I would like to thank Denise for her informative summary on Border Collie Herding Characteristics: http://www.stilhope.com/heritabilitysummary.htm The Burns (1969) study discussed a number of dominant and co-dominant Herding Characteristics, but I would like to discuss "clapping" in a little more detail (if anyone else is interested)... Brief Summary: "Clapping" is when a dog faces the sheep with its stomach close to the ground. It is believed to be a dominant characteristic. "Upstanding" dogs stay on their feet in a crouched position when facing the sheep. As far as I can tell, few other breeds of herding dogs exhibit ?clapping? behaviour when herding. John Holmes (I.S.D.S.) states that ?At one time regarded as stylish, trial men, no doubt having realized how impractical it was, now dislike this style of working, and at many trials a special prize is offered for ?the best upstanding style?.? Do the members of this board believe that "clapping" style is important enough to preserve, as a unique herding "characteristic" of the Border Collie, regardless of its practicality when working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I don't know what "clapping" means. "Clappy" is negative and I believe that it is different than a dog that is amenable to lying down when it is given a stop command. A dog that works on its feet will stop on command, but isn't crazy about laying down while it is working, so when such a dog stops it stands or more likely stops with its head lowered. It doesn't stand with its head up like a doofus though. A clappy dog lays down and gets up (frequently?) of its own accord, I think, and I think (but am not sure) that this behavior is viewed as a sign of reluctance to move on to the pressure. All that is different than a crouching, stalking "stylish" worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I think it's more important to look at what the stock is doing. If the stock are being moved and handled in a stockmanlike, efficient manner around an ISDS style course, then that dog is likely to contribute to preserving the breed's most important characteristics. Dogs that are on their belly all the time have problems with some types of sheep, most importantly to me - my type. It's up to the individual so there's a wide range of stock handling style available within the breed. I'm also becoming convinced that breeding for 100% uniformity of working style (ie, claiming that "eye" to one degree or another was a single distinguishing feature of the breed) would damage the utility of the breed. The US Australian Shepherd folks are currently arguing this point. Those old ISDS stockmen were pretty smart by establishing a set of tasks, not an arbitrary "style" of working, as the standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Originally posted by Doug Boyder:Do the members of this board believe that "clapping" style is important enough to preserve, as a unique herding "characteristic" of the Border Collie, regardless of its practicality when working? No. In my humble opinion. It would make no sense to select for a behaviour that reflects a component of work rather than the overall ability to work stock. From my understanding, most dogs have some combination of eye, crouch (clapping) vs upright style, power, biddability vs independence etc... Different combinations produce different types of dog, some better suited to certain environments or handlers but ultimately in good dogs the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. If you selected for "clappiness" you may very well end up with a stylish looking dog that couldn't move stock worth a damn. It's not different that selecting for a black and white, medium coat, 21", dog with half-pricked ears. You select dogs that work well on a variety of stock under a variety of conditions. What they look like, and how they do it is of interest to the aesthete perhaps but not the stockman. The studies you referenced all say the same thing regarding heritability of traits related to herding. It's not a simple dominant/recessive situation. It's more complex. These are more likely quantitative traits determined by multiple genetic loci. Selecting for one component of a behaviour will not work. One needs to select for the totality of the behaviour until such times as the entire genetic basis for herding is determined ( a good while off I suspect). My 2 cents. Hope it helps.. Pearse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Originally posted by Doug Boyder: Do the members of this board believe that "clapping" style is important enough to preserve, as a unique herding "characteristic" of the Border Collie, regardless of its practicality when working? I agree with Pearse. These were very old studies I used in that summary, and John Holmes' book was first written many years ago. To the degree these people mean, "clapping" is a very rare trait in a working border collie these days. It was not considered practical so it was bred away from. Stock people tend to be very pragmatic individuals with no time for "preserving," as it were. If border collies became unsuitable for their type of livestock work and there were better breeds out there, I fully expect border collies would be replaced with those other breeds, much as has occurred in your country. It's not as if we're trying to preserve the "Guard the Castle" dog just for the sake of having some exact replica of the original dog once needed for work. People still need these dogs for real work. It is the work itself that defines what is bred for. As far as Burns' study: Unbelievably, this 1969 study remains the best one of its kind in my opinion. People who have recently formally tackled the genetics of these behaviors have not had the expertise in working dogs and sheep behavior that Burns obviously had. With regard to the strong eye and clapping, if you believe what is widely written about border collies in the UK at around the time period this paper was written, these traits very commonly appeared together. However, if they are in reality linked on the chromosome, they are probably not very close. When the clapping fell out of favor as a desired working style, it seemed to have been fairly easily bred away from while still retaining the strong eye. As you may know, these behaviors are all thought to have originated in other breeds. For detailed studies and breakdowns of some of these individual behavior in these breeds, you might be interested in Scott and Fuller's Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog. Kay Pine wrote an interesting piece on the how these studies might relate to border collie behaviors. You can find it at: http://www.bordercollie.org/kpbehav.html Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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