DeltaBluez Tess Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 I had an interesting question posed to me the other day from one of my students. We were actually talking about ASCA and the issues they have with the "working Aussies vs the Aussies who work very similar to a Border Collie".....it's a real hot topic with them..... BUT.... we started to talk about show vs working dogs and we wandered on to the subject of Show Border Collies and herding ability. the student asked..."What if....say you got a top Open dog that had placed in big name trials...maybe not winning in them but placed well and also placed in local trials so this dog was somewhat known.....and then this owner sold this dog to a person who then registered them with AKC....and then began to show the dog. This dog then placed well and got the points for Championship.....so now you have an owner who can claim the dog is from working lines, placed well at Open trial and now has his/her Championship." Kinda defeats the purpose of people saying an AKC Border Collie can not herd....... hum........ we looked at my pack of Border Collies and admitted...they sure are butt ugly.... but sure can herd!!! Diane Pagel www.deltabluez.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Diane - According to what I understand, the ABCA papers on that dog would be revoked as soon as he got his Championship, but he will still have done well at those trials, so hmmm... interesting thought. Then again, if those were the dogs that were being shown in the show ring in the first place, would there even BE a problem? Hmmm... Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Diane - P.S. If you don't want your pack of "butt ugly" dogs, I'd be happy to take them off your hands for you! LOL Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Diane, I think Henry Kuykendall more or less did what you describe back before there were as many of the strictly conformation bred border collies being shown. Since they look so differently now, I don't know if a dog with the physical structure and coat suitable for working livestock would get put up in the breed ring any more. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 I don't think anybody has ever said that a dog cannot herd simply by virtue of its having AKC papers. At least I've never heard that said. As long as the AKC studbook remains open, of course good working border collies could be brought into the AKC, and they would still be good working border collies after they were registered. I suppose some of them might be shown to a conformation championship, although that was easier just after recognition than it would be now. Of my five BCs, one of them could possibly be "finished," as they say, if I were so unprincipled as to register and show him, and picked my shows carefully enough. The point, though, is not the state of that dog today, but the state of its offspring a few generations from now. An owner who values a conformation title enough to campaign his/her dog to its championship is putting that dog's descendants on a different path, toward becoming a different kind of dog. How likely is it that such a person would not make breeding decisions with an eye to its pups' suitability for conformation showing? It is these breeding decisions, carried forward to the next generation and the next, that lead to the state where it will be said of the AKC border collie (as it is said of the other long-time AKC breeds) that it can no longer herd. The fact that it doesn't happen overnight is what makes it so insidious and blinds people to what's happening until it's too late. I'm sorry to think that people would sell a good dog to someone who is going to AKC register it, but of course that happens, and it even happens that some people who should know better will AKC register a dog themselves, human nature being what it is. And, human nature being what it is, as time goes on and incentives grow there will probably be sheepdog handlers who would show a dog in conformation and breed for success in conformation. If this weren't so, AKC recognition wouldn't hold as much peril for the border collie as it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted July 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 >>The point, though, is not the state of that dog today, but the state of its offspring a few generations from now. An owner who values a conformation title enough to campaign his/her dog to its championship is putting that dog's descendants on a different path, toward becoming a different kind of dog. << No argument here!!! I wanted to post a comment by a student who put a new spin on things. Have you seen the Show Aussie vs the Working Aussie on sheep....talk about a world of difference. Diane Pagel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 If the ABCA learned of the championship in the breed ring, any future offspring of the dog would not be eligible for ABCA registration, and a good dog would be lost to us. While it would be a loss, I think the point that the action makes is more important than the loss of any single dog -- as Eileen said, the person who campaigns for the breed ring championship has chosen sides and elected to take that line of dogs in a new direction. Surely, they can claim good working lines. But unless and until they decide that they want to return those lines to the fold and get a few of his offspring or grand- or great-grand offspring ROMed, they're whistling Dixie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 Great post Eileen but unfortunately AKC border collie enthusiasts will never hear your message. It seems to only be about "me and my dog right now." No one wants to think about the effect of this attitude on the border collie gene pool in the future. No one wants to think beyond a statement like the oft heard, "Just having AKC papers doesn't automatically mean my border can't herd." They never hear, "It's not all about your one dog right now." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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