Foreman Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Good morning everyone- Just a little background- I've grown up around dogs in a suburban atmosphere. My parents have had dogs ranging from English Setters and Cocker Spaniels to *shudders* Shih Tzus. Being around dogs certainly is nothing new. My wife grew up around Golden Retrievers. We've been married a year and have decided to give one another a puppy for christmas. Obviously getting a golden for her is of no consequence. However, bringing a border collie into the family is something else altogether and something I don't want to do if inappropriate. I've been doing my research and learning more about the breed. I love the idea of an intelligent, working dog as it tends to fit my own personality. A potential problem though is the fact that I am in no way involved with anything close to herding, nor do I intend to. Having a 'job' for the dog to do is paramount though as I want to provide a fulfilling and happy home as a part of the family. I guess my general question is this. What is the general opinion of flyball for the breed? I have been to a number of practices now. The owners are definately more fixed on the dogs rather than the sport itself which is encouraging. The dogs themselves look like they love it. What is the opinion of the sport among owners that work their dogs as herders? Thanks for putting up with my rambling... any comments and/or opinions would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Foreman, I have 3 dogs one of which is a bc/mix. Getting a border collie to basically do flyball is not a good reason to get a border collie but I can understand why you would want to. I do flyball with all my dogs and they absolutely love it. If you do decide to get a border collie I would recommend checking out rescue first. If you really want to compete in flyball, you will have a better chance at running your dog sooner if you get one that is a little older (dogs have to be 1 year to compete in tourneys). Rescue also has pups at times. Or even bc mixes. Mine is a great dog and is pretty fast and still has the brains of a border collie. Thanks for taking the time to do your research before getting a dog. Many people on this board are true herding folks and are against getting border collies unless you plan to herd with them so please do not take what anyone might say to heart. They are only looking out for the best interest of the breed. Sometimes you can find herding dropouts that would make great flyball dogs. You can email me at flyballdogs@cox.net if you have some other questions. This forum is for the herding folks not us dog sport people. You may want to post this under the obedience/agility forum--this also includes flyball. Kim Centreville, VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreman Posted November 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Thanks for the reply... I'll follow up on the other thread with questions about flyball. I am still curious about what the general opinion of those that raise BC's for herding is towards the sport. Personally, getting a dog, regardless of the breed for the sake of a sport isn't justified in my mind. I do want to make that clear. I love the breed and their characteristics. I also am realistic about my situation and know that I won't be able to herd with my dogs. The flyball would be more of a means to satisfy a BC working mentality and an opportunity to share some fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 26, 2002 Report Share Posted November 26, 2002 Hey Foreman - Flyball is WAY too loud, boisterous, and foolish for this old "herding nazi"... But I don't have a problem with the dogs doing it - just don't ask me to attend often... Personally, I think agility would be more "stimulating" - but what I don't know about "doggie sports" would fill, well, practically all the doggie sports... Now, y'wanna talk about moving that ram off the girls in estrus, let's talk... Border Collies, however, should ONLY be bred for "work" - and I define work as herding. After all, that is what made the breed what it is - intelligent, active, thinking, boon companions, etc., etc., and on and on...it wasn't breeding for "flyball" that made the dog a great flyball dog - it was breeding for herding...coincidentally, it does well at a variety of "doggie sports" BECAUSE of the breed's ability to "work livestock" in conjunction with a human partner... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-26-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 You asked for opinions from herding folks...and that would NOT be me, though I would consider myself an agility person. I too don't have much use for flyball, though admittedly I've never tried it and have only seen it a few times. I have no doubt that the dogs enjoy it! But I don't know that it is really mentally stimulating. There doesn't seem much to learn - run fast, jump very low jumps, hit the paddle, catch the ball and run back. I'm sure there's more to it than that (after all, folks think they can compete in agility as soon as their dogs know how to jump!). But agility does seem a more "involved" sport - at least the handler gets to be WITH the dog (rather than just sending them down the chute for the ball). And handling is a true art (one which I have not even begun to master yet, after three years...). It does take concentration, as well as physical ability (on the part of the dog AND the handler!). Just my not-unbiased-opinion... diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 I agree with Bill. I have no problem with border collies participating in any dogsport, so long as they are not being BRED for that sport. Flyball doesn't seem to me to encourage or make use of the potential a border collie has to offer as much as, say, agility or tracking. A sport that tends to make the dogs that frantic and noisy wouldn't be my choice, but that's just a matter of personal taste. The people and dogs who do it certainly appear to be having a lot of fun, which is good, and I don't see any harm in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted November 27, 2002 Report Share Posted November 27, 2002 Anybody out there remember the old game of scent hurdles. Similar to Flyball, but the dog had to find it's owner's dumbbell at the end not just catch a ball. Now, that was alot less noisey and more mentally challenging. Too bad the old techinques for training were so common, I bet that would be really fun to watch with today's positive training techniques. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Hello, I was browsing and noticed your post from the past. My husband is a flyball aficionado, so some of our working Border Collies play the game. Borders are by far the superior flyball dog. They learn the game quickly, and tho the game is relatively simple, the dogs understand the purpose is "beat the other guy", and see this as their job. They enjoy it, and it is a lot of fun. I have one flyball master dog out of a National Champion, and I've been told recently by more than one professional handler that she could go far in the herding world, tho that of course would depend on her acquiring a better handler. I'm a less than graceful novice trainer/handler, and will never do her justice. My point is, the flyball doesn't seem to have hurt her herding ability. I would say, however, that agility would allow for more of the considerable intellectual stimulation that these dogs require. The sport is much more complex, and mastering the sport can take several years of training, upon which the Border Collies thrive. ------------------ Sheryl Day Beauty without vanity Strength withoutinsolence Courage without ferocity Virtue without vice John Cam Hobhouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Okay, I have to start out by saying where I stand on the flyball issue. I say flyball is a level of Hell that Dante never contemplated. Now there are two other things that I want to say: Christmas is the wrong time to get any dog. Your home is in turmoil, your schedules are disrupted, and you're distracted by parties, visitors, etc. You don't need a Border collie to play flyball. Why would you want a smart dog to play a game that seems to cause their brains to fall out? Why not get a puppy from the pound, give it something to do, and a home where people love it? I suppose in the grand scheme of things that getting a Border collie to play flyball isn't as bad as being Henry Kissenger or something, and everyone here is quick to say that you shouldn't buy a pup from someone who is breeding for dog sports. I'd agree with that. But if you're buying a pup for flyball, you are creating a market for pups that aren't needed for work; the difference is one of degree. Eventually, this leads to too many puppies being bred for the wrong reasons, and I believe in the long run it will hurt the breed. If you simply must have a border collie for flyball, get a rescue. Even if it takes you a year or two to find the right dog. Don't contribute to the problem, even indirectly. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-20-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rtphokie Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Foreman, For a first time BC owner, I wouldn't recommend going to a herding breeder or getting a puppy. Most of those BC's are bred to work and work they must. I also would not recommend going to someone breeding for sport, as they are a detriment to the breed. I would recommend doing your research and learning what you may be getting into by getting a BC. Take a minute to read the posts on the General discussion under the "Is a BC right for my family" topic. If you think a BC is right for you, contact a rescuer, who has many great dogs in need of a home. You know exactly what you are getting with a rescued dog from a legit rescue organization. They can help you find the perfect dog for you and your lifestyle and whatever you want to do with your BC, whether it's flyball or just runs in the park. Also, growing up around dogs and actually training your own dogs yourself are two entirely different things. I grew up around dogs too, in fact I think I was raised by 2 GSD's (which explains a lot! , but it was still not the same as actually being totally responsible for their training. Make sure to find a local training center to help you train your new dog, whatever the breed or mix may be. Good luck in your search! Laura Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted December 21, 2002 Report Share Posted December 21, 2002 I'm jumping in on this rather late, but I'd encourage you to NOT introduce two puppies into the household at the same time. You and your wife should go pick up your Golden and let it do some growing up and spend time researching Border Collies further. If you do decide to get a Border Collie in the future, I'd recommend looking for an adult rescued dog and also to keep your mind open to BC mixes. By the way, you'll most likely find it difficult to find a Christmas dog puppy from ANY responsible source, be it a breeder, shelter, or rescuer. If someone has puppies on the ground, ready to go and waiting for you check and is willing to sell puppies for Christmas presents, it's highly unlikely that they are an ethical or responsible breeder. -- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 I forgot to mention this in my last post. My daughter got us started with Border Collies when she acquired one for a 4-H project. He was soon followed by 2 more Borders for my husband and I. While the first one was still a pup, my second daughter decided she needed a dog also, and not wanting to be compared to her sister, she decided on a golden. She selected a wonderful golden boy, a bright and good natured dog, and she did a wonderful job of training him. He was really a superior Golden. BUT, the poor thing was an "A" student in a house full of geniuses, and at some point in his 3rd year he realized it. He couldn't do anything as well as it could be done by a Border. He knew he'd always be late and second best when a Border was around. I know it sounds like anthropomorphizing, but I think it grieved the dog enormously. The only times he was "himself" was when we took him someplace without the Borders. I wouldn't advise asking these two breeds to live in the same household. It's not fair. I would strongly recommend considering a rescued Border for any dogsports you'd like to try. Unfortunately, I've noticed over the past 10 years, the quality of the dogs landing in rescue has risen. I just had one in my home for a few days who has the potential to do just about anything anyone could want. He had wonderful natural herding potential, and was athletic, good natured, and so eager to learn and become a partner with someone. He just wanted somebody to do something with. I'd strongly recommend that you attend some of the dogsport events in your area and talk to some Border owners about rescue, and surf the internet Border Collie rescue sites. Adopting one of these dogs can be one of the best things you can do for the dog and for yourself. Two of our crew are rescues, both gifts from God. ------------------ Sheryl Day Beauty without vanity Strength without insolence Courage without ferocity Virtue without vice John Cam Hobhouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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