Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 You know, I've heard the same song-and-dance over and over so many times I forgot to question it... Here it is... "I register my dog akc so I can compete in akc events, there just aren't enough non-akc events for me to compete in." On direct observation, this seems pretty shallow to me... If you really wanted a non-akc event - why don't you hold one? Setting up a flyball course takes very little space. There was one in a local park here last weekend. Obedeince venues require nothing more than a small arena - lots of warehouses, gymnasiums, etc. out there... Agility courses may be a bit bigger - but looks to me from "animal planet" that most of them could be fit in a large suburban backyard... And heck, even most akc herding courses can be done in that venue...my training pen is larger than a "regulation" size akc herding test area and arena. Why don't you folks "pay back" your sports and the dogs by setting up more of your own events? Why leave it to a money-making organization like the akc to lay claim to YOUR dogs and YOUR sports and change them into something you don't want? I've heard many of "you 'uns" state that you don't like the akc, the conformance people or what they stand for. So I'm asking, why don't you stand up for something different? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Right on! (So I show my age, so what.) Reminds me of a little poster I got for one of my kids, years ago: "I kept saying that somebody ought to do something. Then I realized that I'm somebody." nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Small clarification: flyball competition are not currently offered by AKC. They are currently too busy shanghei-ing agility from NADAC and USDAA, I'm sure. NAFA is the controlling entity and many teams do start out if not still practice in someone's backyard. Rebecca Proud member of Carpe Pilam, perhaps NAFA's only all-farmdog team! We brake for dog trials . . .(c: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Well, Rebecca, I think that's pretty cool and exactly what I am talking about... I've been very surprised that some of you non-akc folks haven't taken severe exception to the akc/bcsa member's statements that the akc is the only game in town... That said, and having pups in flyball that thier owners have MADE me come see - I don't know how you guys can stand the cacaphony... ----------------- Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-25-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Bill, The answer is very simple..Titles...One reason that the AKC does so well is because they feed people's ego about their dogs. Do you know how many people brag that their dog past the herding instinct test? I get sick and tired of my AKC friends asking me why I don't have any herding titles. If I explain to them that you don't get titles for what I do they then explain to me that I should do AKC herding..that way I could get titles. they just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Hey Bill, it's funny you should bring that up because I was just wondering a day or two ago about setting up an obedience competition for all the poor people who are left out because they own mutts (a term of endearment to the REAL dog lovers of the world). I can't run my dogs in obedience trials because niether border collies nor mini aussies are accepted breeds in the Canadian Kennel Club. (I am so proud to own both. ) This is, however, a point of frustration for me because I know many people who love their pets and would love to compete just for the fun of it, but due to the elitest nature of the kennel clubs, the owners aren't even considered acceptable let alone their dogs. I even had a woman tell me, "Get rid of those mutts and I'll help you find a real dog." She was trying to be so helpful (in her snotty kennel club way), but all it did was make me furious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Yes, titles are a big draw - but the other venues give those too. I don't do agility so I leave it to others to comment on the coverage nationwide but in this area I know people who happily do EVERYTHING with their dogs while utterly eschewing the AKC. Bill, you're talking to someone who was raised with a HIGH tolerance to noise. If you ever fly out of the SFO airport, look down as you clear the runway and wave at my old neighborhood. Still, we typically only go in when we race and sit outside and talk the rest of the time. I used to have a bitch that was pretty good and I wouldn't let her goober around, salivating and yapping, when I was training her. My other dog doesn't care enough to yap! (c: ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Shawna, the US has something called AMBOR - I think it's affiliated with the UKC now. Just put that in your search engine and it should come up. I have a friend who got lots of advanced titles on her chihuahua, umm, thingy. I'm not into obedience but it gave me a thrill to see that little throwaway dog go through his teeny paces. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Shawna - good go, that's exactly what I'm talking about... Ah Rebecca, I don't think noise quite describes it - but I also know folks who are bored to tears with a perfect Open run... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 "but I also know folks who are bored to tears with a perfect Open run..." Running it or watching it? Either way I'd love to see the day that described me . . .no, I'll take that back! I live in an area where I can see one- and two-point-off runs regularly and I hope I never become inured to good drives or OLFs or a great pen. Be nice if they were MINE but that's why I watch, so maybe someday they will be, God willing. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Hey Becca, OT, but how's your pup? I probably won't see you at any trials this fall, unless you plan to do any VBCA--can't make Steve's Dec. trial as I'm going to a judging clinic. Twist never ceases to amaze me--she's already driving and takes inside flanks most of the time. Of course that will all go by the wayside at a trial no doubt! (Now if she had a really good handler....) Now for something on topic, as I've said before I have a herding washout with whom a friend is doing agility. I plan to put up some makeshift obstacles in my yard so I can play with him at it, but I have no interest in competing. I guess I'm just one of those folks who doesn't need a title to feel I've accomplished something with my dog (unless that title is USBCHA national champion--hey, a girl can dream can't she?). I figure I can light the yard well enough to do agility things as once DST ends it will be too dark to work my dogs on sheep when I get home from work. J. [This message has been edited by juliepoudrier (edited 10-25-2002).] [This message has been edited by juliepoudrier (edited 10-25-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 "once DST ends it will be too dark to work my dogs on sheep when I get home from work. " Actually, I'm starting to learn the joys of practicing at night (working at night was never optional, darn ewes just insist on having lambs at all hours). My frontmost pasture is close enough to my yard to catch the yard lights and give me a silouette (yikes, sp?) to work by. "Hey Becca, OT, but how's your pup? " Oh, man, the little minx is not quite three months old and already sneaking into the pasture whenever she can. She's interested in heading like crazy and a couple days ago backed everybody into a corner and marched straight into the face of the mean old bellwether before I caught her (whew). She actually listens well but I don't want to interfere too much at this stage. She looks like her grandma Jan, little stocky thing. I was up there a few weeks ago at the clinic at Ms. Conrad's, in between Montpelier and Edgeworth. I was so envious at all the trial talk - I can't get away much with the kids. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 I have to agree to a point about holding your own trials, tournaments etc... but many of us cannot or do not have the time to devote to making such things happen. And if there are any upfront costs, that could also be a problem. I do not participate in agility so I can not speak for that area. At some point I may do some agility but I will not attend AKC trials but that is my choice. Flyball is run by NAFA like Rebecca said and is not affiliated with AKC. I think one of the main reasons is the fact that there are many mix breeds that do flyball and we all know what the AKC thinks about mix breeds. Personally, I am starting a new flyball team and we don't have a place to practice so we will just practice wherever we can get some space and the kennel clubs are not an option for us. So some of us versatility folks would be willing to hold non-AKC events if we had the means but many of don't. And yes flyball is very loud and like Rebecca, we only go in the building when it is time to race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Becca, I too have often worked my dogs in the dark (not because lambing or anything necessitated it but rather because I was desperate to work my dogs and dark was all I had). Last February at Edgeworth when we ran out of daylight, I joked about how all the training in the dark served me well for once! Want to learn to trust your dogs completely? Work 'em after dark! Did you do a clinic with Bobby D. or someone else at Ethel's? I drove up to Verna's one evening (left work early) and took a lesson from Bobby with Twist. I really like the way he trains.... I skipped both Edgeworth and ABC this time because I'm running out of leave and I want to go to the finals. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 "Did you do a clinic with Bobby D. or someone else at Ethel's? " Jack Knox. My first time in "Advanced" (ie, out on the old Blue Ridge trial field). What a thrill to run Rick out there - the last Blue Ridge was run the year before I started trialling. Jack set up a relatively easy course for us but there were still several amusing mishaps! (c: ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Hey two devils - I'd be happy to let non-akc affiliated folks use my farm and schoolhouse for events - even the dreaded flyball - and I bet there are some others like me around... NAFA sounds like a decent enough organization to me. I guess you still fit in my definition above about folks that "do stuff" - performance stuff, fun stuff, exciting stuff - with their dogs without "selling out to the akc" and I think that's a pretty cool thing... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Bill, Thanks, I think Maybe you should offer up your farm and schoolhouse to the Non-AKC people. At least in flyball, it is hard to find dog friendly places that will rent the place for a weekend. Wish you lived around here. Oh the bucks you could make on the side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Thanks Rebecca, I checked AMBOR out. It turns out Canada has one similar to that only it seems to be mostly back east(NAMBR). They are looking for reps in other provinces though so it might be well worth looking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 27, 2002 Report Share Posted October 27, 2002 Hi Shawna - We used to have a similar problem in most of Australia (about the ?official? body not allowing mixes/non-registered purebreds to compete either at all, or in the same ring with the registered purebreds). About 7 years ago, most states got approval to allow any/all dogs into ANKC controlled events. This year, we finally got that situation accepted in my state of Tasmania ? after LOTS of lobbying, investigation/threats of using anti-discrimination laws etc.etc., and a special meeting at which us obedience folks took busloads to stack the meeting and outnumber the conformation people who were violently opposed to us - the term ?mongrels? was thrown around. (It?s fair to say that some of the conformation people had already come over to the side of the mutts.) We did have to make the concession that the dogs on the ?associate? register had to be de-sexed, but most owners had already done that. I?m sure obedience clubs etc are probably already lobbying your canine control about this issue ? but our experience suggests that pressure eventually works. Hi Bill and others - while I don?t disagree with what you say about setting up separate events, we would certainly run into the practical problem here of getting public liability insurance ? not just that it?s getting fiendishly expensive, but that many community organizations are folding because they can?t get insurance at all (since 9/11 and the collapse of a couple of big insurance companies here.) Operating under the umbrella of the ANKC (equivalent of AKC ? but maybe not quite so evil??), at least we get to get public liability insurance, even though it?s costing us 50% more this year. ------------------ Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Hey Barb and others - Insurance is a problem no matter the event - but it IS available - usually at a cost - and one can always have everybody sign away thier first born child with waivers...and yes, I know they don't always stand up in court - but neither does insurance... All it takes is a "club" to get group insurance - and it's easy enough to elect a board and set up some rules - then you can do what you want... So I don't find that reason especially a problem - it's the same situation those of us who hold dog trials have...and overcome... One can always find "reasons" to not do ANYTHING - but one can always find a way to do something they want to do... Not, "I'll beleive it when I see it", but "I will see it when I beleive it." ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Tassie, wow, that's great. It would take some doing but it would be worth it in the end. Unlike AMBOR, NAMBR allows purebreds to compete along with the mixed breeds, if they meet the requirements. I can see that if enough people would get on the band wagon the CKC could very likely be forced to allow "registered" crossbreeds into competitions. I know several kennel clubers who would almost rather die than see a mutt in the ring next to Fifi, but I also know a few who would gladly back up the pet owners on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rtphokie Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Bill, It *can* be done (holding non-AKC events), but it's a LOT of work. I'm with a group trying to start up USDAA agility in my area and there's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to host a trial, e.g. setting up a non-profit corporation, recruiting enough people to help (agility trials require a LOT of volunteers), fundraising, etc... Space is a major issue, but not the only obstacle to holding your own sanctioned trials. It can be done, but most people are comfortable just going with what's quick, easy and convenient. AKC trials in this area are so "hot", people actually pay local people to go hand deliver entries so they can get into the trials (they're limited). And this is an area that has many NADAC agility (non-AKC) trials as well, so it's not like it's the only game in town. At a recent multi-venue event (flyball, agility, breed, obedience, etc...), flyball was center stage since it drew the most spectators and was surrounded by everything else, which all happened to be AKC-sponsored. They actually put signs up at every entrance to every AKC sport stating "Non-AKC dogs prohibited past this point". Talk about snobby. Most AKC events don't even allow non-AKC reg'd dogs on the grounds. Although the local AKC lure coursing club will let me run my dogs (even mixes) for fun at the end of their trial. Becca - you got short & stocky; I got tall & lanky! Laura Raleigh, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Do you know how many people brag that their dog passed the herding instinct test? I actually saw someone at a dog sport event last weekend who had a Herding Instinct Test patch on her jacket -- like it was a Girl Scout badge or something. Ah, well. The big carrot that AKC holds out to competitors -- those who are interested in breeding, anyway -- is that the titles go on the pedigree. USDAA, NADAC, NAFA titles do not go on AKC pedigrees. There is one benefit I can think of that would occur if AKC hijacked flyball, and that is, at least it would discourage the breeding of designer mixes for dog sports -- Border-Jacks, Border-Borders, etc. But that's the only benefit I can think of. -- Melanie, Solo the Red (part-time agility dog), and The Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Laura writes: "It can be done, but most people are comfortable just going with what's quick, easy and convenient." Well, and I guess that's the point I was asking about... The, "I have to in order to do fun things with my dog." appears to not be true. Leading one to wonder what the real reason is... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Dog Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Couple of things: I'm a member of the Carpe Pilam flyball team with Rebecca, but I wouldn't call us "versatility folks." Most of us have dogs that we're more serious about learning to work stock, and these dogs don't do flyball. Over time several people on this board have written about their opposition to breeding Border-Jacks, Border-Borders, etc. I really don't understand the reasoning behind this unless it's the world doesn't need more dog breeds. I much rather see a dog bred to do something than some of the genetic freaks the AKC has come up with. And I'd certainly rather see a Border Collie with little or no working ability bred to a terrier rather than further dilute the Border Collie population. Thoughts? Tony Luper Summerfield, NC PS: I haven't posted in a while. Been busy getting the 22 acres I bought into shape. It's now fenced, and a sheep/equipment/hay shed is half complete. If I can just get CP&L to turn the power on, I'll be ready for sheep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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