Riddle me this...? (For the versatility folks)

[brookcove]

My problem is that flyball is not something that I feel we need to be breeding dogs "for". The minute I think that attitude is prevailing in this sport, I'm getting OUT. It's a GAME.

 

To address another point you made: non-working quality Border Collies shouldn't be bred at all. Especially not to make mixed breeds. Every time I see one of those Border-Border-Jack-Border whatever thingies I think of thousands of terrier mix pups going under the needle or in the gas chamber at that very moment and I get SICK. Sorry, but every time one of those breedings is done we're eliminating some pound pup's chance to play flyball, which I thought was suppposed to be the game for every dog originally, not those bred for it.

 

------------------

Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[SoloRiver]

Flyball is not something I want to see dogs being bred for, any more than I want to see dogs being bred for agility.

 

Aside from Becca's comments (which I agree with totally) the other objection I have is that the Border-whatever crosses are usually done to obtain height dogs. Teams want a dog the size of a JRT, but with the biddability and focus of a Border Collie. The problem is that if you cross a dog the size of a Border Collie with a dog the size of a JRT, you've got at least as much of a chance of ending up with a dog the size of a Border Collie as you do of ending up with something the right size for a height dog (the average pup would grow out to be intermediate in size, but there are outliers). What do you do with the dogs who end up too big to be height dogs? Who the heck else would want a Border Collie-Jack Russell cross? Sport people who want a dog the size of a Border Collie, get a Border Collie. There aren't a whole lot of options for dogs who are basically genetically engineered to be the world's worst pets.

 

I know Pam Reid has a Border-Border she does agility with, that turned out to be Border Collie size, but she's the exception to the rule. Most of the serious sport people I know go through dogs like used sports equipment trying to find the one that's going to take them to the top, and they place their washouts in pet homes (I was offered a couple while I was looking for a second dog -- "he's not into agility, maybe he would like to try herding").

 

I wouldn't be surprised if people are doing Border-Sheltie crosses (I've seen a few suspicious-looking "agility Shelties"), or trying to breed miniature Border Collies for height dogs. As it is, if you've got a tiny Border Collie bitch and you set foot anywhere near a flyball breeder, you'd probably have to fend him/her off with a baseball bat.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly

[Shawna]

Sorry I don't really do the "sport" thing (agility, flyball) so maybe this is a dumb question but, if you want a fast, biddable, small dog what's wrong with the pure sheltie? My moms sheltie is wickedly fast for a small dog and I have seen so many do amazingly well on TV.

[Guest rtphokie]

Most of the serious sport people I know go through dogs like used sports equipment trying to find the one that's going to take them to the top, and they place their washouts in pet homes

 

No, not "most". Some of the very top competitors do this, but that's about it. I'd say about 1-2% of the total people involved in dog sports will do this. Some would argue that I'm a "serious sport competitor" since I train, teach and compete almost constantly, but my dogs are my pets first and that's how it is with MOST sport competitors. Just because you've heard of a few bad apples, don't badmouth all of us. I'd guess there are some hobby triallers out there that will sell a dog that couldn't get past Novice because they want a top dog too. Would I be wrong??

 

Laura

[brookcove]

Shelties aren't desireable because the majority of them are, ummm, flighty. You can keep them on task for a couple rounds but then it's over. Even the best I've noticed aren't used much. Believe it or not, flyball requires a lot of focus. (c:

 

I can see the future Border Collie as a breed being very similiar to the present day Sheltie because I've seen several examples of individuals already.

 

Our team has a Cocker Spaniel (?)/Border collie mix that runs reasonably fast AND could be a height dog if we needed her to. Rescued from the pound, thank you very much.

 

------------------

Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[2 Devils]

I have to agree about the breeding mix breeds for flyball/agility specifically. I think it is wrong but like show breeders these people are going to keep breeding the mix breeds no matter what any of us believe. There are enough people out there that will want one. I know for a fact that someone just bred a border collie and a jrt and they alreay have a waiting list for a puppy...it is really sad but that is life.

 

The border jacks are not all that wild comparatively. Even the ones that don't make the cut as a REALLY fast height dog or are too big will usually end up in another sport home, not just dumped off or given to a companion home and if they are given to a companion home, the people usually will need to meet the owner/breeders tests for a good home. I have known a couple border/jacks and border/borders and they are very laid back outside of flyball but that could also be there training in general. And that is what I think can make or break the dog...the training or lack there of. The breeders/owners need to take the responsibility for placing dogs in appropriate homes. I disagree with the breeding in general but I accept it.

 

Not all of us flyball folks will get rid of a dog that does not meet what we want.

 

My Charlotte is the sister of the bc/cocker mix(?) that runs with Rebecca's flyball team. They definitely look different and are of different sizes and all that looks similar are the markings. In fact, Rebecca is the one who suckered me into bringing home Charlotte as my rescue and she is a great dog most of the time now.

[brookcove]

HEY! "Suckered"? Ha, ha, you're a great home "most of the time", too! (c;

 

There's something else in there, too - the little boy grew up to look like a big fluffy daschund with tri BC markings. I SWEAR they all looked and acted like purebred 8 wk old BCs when I evaluated them at the pound! (c: The variety produced by hybrid genetics is amazing - heck, a cross within the BC breed often produces a huge range of types. Laura's (rtphokie) comment about our two pups shows that and our pups came from a linebreeding. Mine's black and white, tiny and stocky, and hers is (apparently) tall and leggy and tri (no tri was on either parent or either parent's parents!). I'd sure hate to lose that like you see in other breeds that have been standardized.

 

------------------

Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[SoloRiver]

I'd guess there are some hobby triallers out there that will sell a dog that couldn't get past Novice because they want a top dog too. Would I be wrong??

 

No, not that I can tell. I think that sucks too.

 

Of course there are plenty of sport competitors whose dogs are pets first, and that's how I think it should be. But there is a sizeable contingent of people who are either at the top or want to be and they do wash out dogs. I also think this contingent is growing as dog sports become less of a game and more of a serious pursuit for more owners and trainers. Just look at how many people went from another breed to Border Collies specifically because they wanted to be more competitive. A lot of these people are interested in the sport first and the dog second.

 

People do the same thing in herding, but I think there's a slight difference. Performance in herding is the way breeding stock is evaluated. Performance in dog sports should never be the way breeding stock is evaluated.

 

When people are breeding dogs specifically for the purpose of competing in dog sports, that means they have shifted over to a radically different view of what the game is all about. It's gone from having fun with your dog to pushing the boundaries of a discipline. I am as awed by the really top sports handlers and what they can achieve with the right dogs as anyone else, but I couldn't be one of those people, even if I had the requisite training and handling skills, which I don't. For me, it's about the dog first. I do agility with Solo because he enjoys it (and I enjoy it), not because he's fast and I think he should be able to get a lot of titles.

 

For what it's worth, in herding my dogs are pets first too. I bought Fly as a trained dog and she's turned out to be great, but even if she wasn't a very good dog I would have kept her anyway (which would make her a very expensive pet) because she is loveable, and fun, and she and Solo adore each other. Other people would sell a dog who didn't turn out to be what they wanted, but I don't have the same sorts of priorities. Mine are not better or worse, but they are different. I am not out to win trials, I don't need a farm dog for any specific animal husbandry purposes, and I am not planning to breed dogs. Fly could have fallen short because part of the reason I got her was that I needed a teacher, and given my skills and experience level, I needed a certain sort of dog for that. I guess I would have been within my rights not to keep her if she'd turned out not to be what I needed, but luckily she did because I am too much of a pet owner and sucker to turn a dog away. I mean heck, I kept Solo, didn't I?

 

I didn't mean to tar all sport people by the same brush. But the attitude I described is one that I don't think is all that uncommon.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly

[2 Devils]

Rebecca,

 

I would love to see a pic of the little brother. Charlotte and Cleo look so different but so a like at the same time. And yes, they all looked like border collie fluff balls as pups. Of course Charlotte was the bigger one and had the smoother hair as a pup so of course she is bigger full grown and smooth haired. Cleo and Charlotte have similar personalities and they were raised in different environments so genetics does play a part in personalities I think.

[Guest rtphokie]

Isn't it fun to watch littermates grow up to be totally different looking even tho' they started almost identical? Still amazes me...you'll never know what you may end up with. My pup's new nickname is Moose.

 

As far as people getting BC's to "win" in agility, that is true to a certain extent. But what happens many times is those first time BC owners get this super-fast dog and it takes them years to learn how to handle him, if they ever do. They don't realize running a super-fast dog comes with it's own unique set of challenges, just like running a slow dog does. There are people out there that like to compete and like to win and will do what it takes to get there no matter what. That is true in any sport...and I wonder if it would be more common in herding if herding trials were as popular as agility trials. But not all of those people are throwing away dogs. Trust me, it is well-known which people are doing this...agility is a small world with the popularity of the internet and word does get around. And I'll still argue it's nowhere near being a significant majority of competitors though.

And I do completely agree no one should be breeding for sport!!

Melanie, I'm just curious which agility venues you compete in...if I'm ever up your way again, I'll look out for you and Solo.

Laura

[SoloRiver]

As far as people getting BC's to "win" in agility, that is true to a certain extent. But what happens many times is those first time BC owners get this super-fast dog and it takes them years to learn how to handle him, if they ever do.

 

Sure. But they've already bought the dog, and therefore fueled the market. The other thing about many of these folks is that they buy dogs, they don't rescue them. They don't want to take chances (or don't think they are taking chances by buying a puppy), they don't want to "fix someone else's problems," they don't want a dog someone else threw away. Not all top agility competitors are like this -- Diane Bauman is a notable exception -- but a lot of them are. And they buy their dogs from sports breeders with "proven" sports stock.

 

Once I was having a conversation/debate with a sports person who doesn't see anything wrong with Border-Jacks. I opined that a small fast mutt can be had from nearly any animal shelter in the country if one is willing to put in the effort to check the shelters on a regular basis and doesn't have to have the dog yesterday. She answered, "But why should someone have to? Why shouldn't sports people be able to buy nice dogs? They shouldn't have to be stuck with rescues." I think she felt that if show people had a legitimate excuse to buy puppies, and working people had a legit excuse to buy puppies, then by god, sport people should be able to buy puppies too. You know, and not get stuck with that rescue "trash."

 

But I digress.

 

I wouldn't recommend starting with a Border Collie to anyone learning agility. A slower dog is much more forgiving, and much less likely to be ten jumps down the line without you if you have to pause and remember where the next obstacle is. On the other hand, I see people with other sorts of dogs going through all kinds of contortions trying to motivate their dogs to take obstacles, and it's been a relative luxury starting with a dog like Solo because I have never really had to motivate him at all. We basically showed him the obstacles once each and he was ready to go go go. (This is the reason, by the way, that I think you don't see tons of Shelties in flyball, although you do see Shelties in the smaller agility height classes: lack of drive. Shelties just don't tend to be very intense dogs.)

 

Melanie, I'm just curious which agility venues you compete in...if I'm ever up your way again, I'll look out for you and Solo.

 

We have never competed. We are just fixtures in the classes at our club. I do plan to compete with him, but I only want to take him to outdoor trials (indoors are too much to expect him to handle -- crowded and noisy and just too much) and up here those are pretty much only offered during the summer. During the past two summers, I've either been unable to train or out of the country. We'll probably start with something more laid-back like UKC (although then you run into the whole ethical issue with registrations since a dog has to be UKC-registered to compete), CPE, or maybe NADAC. Solo is ILPed, but I'm not interested in AKC trials for numerous reasons. USDAA sounds scary.

 

If I were competitive I'd quit herding with Solo and concentrate on agility. He's got the makings of an excellent agility dog, whereas he will probably never go to a herding trial (even if he becomes perfect on his home field I doubt he'll ever be able to repeat the performance on a field he's never seen with sheep he doesn't know). But he loves herding more, and so do I, and agility doesn't do for his head what herding does. So, the other reason we haven't competed is we're spending too much time working sheep instead.

 

Maybe next summer!

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly

[Tassie]

I must be na?ve ? or else we still have the luxury of dog sports being relatively uncompetitive here in Oz ? or at least in the parts I compete in. But some mainland judges who have come to Tassie have warned us about not letting things get too ?cut-throat?, and making sure we keep the fun and comradeship that we currently have. I could hardly believe what I was reading about the mixes being bred specifically for agility, or getting a height dog for flyball.

 

I?m another one of those dog sports folks who has dogs that are pets first. We started in obedience, then moved on to agility and tracking as fun things to do, and manageable for someone who can?t readily get access to sheep. We also do pets as therapy ? started because of the very loving and people-focussed nature of my first BC ? he was a natural.

 

I must admit I chose my new puppies with my needs in mind, but they are also pets first and foremost. I love it if my dogs and I can succeed, but my primary goal is for them to be having fun. So I was able to keep competing (if that?s the word for it) with my dear old Sam even when he was 12 and a half ? and in between exercises he would be spinning around grinning and barking ? and still getting zeroes for anticipation ? e.g. going out to the box in directed jump before the judge even had a chance to say ?send your dog?! I thought it was funny ? I guess I?m really not a very competitive person!

 

 

 

------------------

Barb

[airbear]

Hi,

 

I thought it was funny ? I guess I?m really not a very competitive person!

 

Barb, I think you're just the right kind of competitive person! No one has ever died because their dog crossed the line before he was supposed to. In fact, my favorite run of Bear's and my 'career' in agility is still his first Master's Gamblers run when we accumulated almost zero points and then had a lovely conversation about being sent to a tunnel 5 feet away (did I mention it was our first try at Master's Gamblers??)before we were whistled off.

 

The reason it was my fave run is because I was playing with my beloved dog, whom I was told would never amount to much in agility, on a lovely Indian summer day and I was so proud of him for getting us to Master's in 4 trials (his biggest handicap is me as a handler). No one but me remembers that run and that's ok too! As Paul Stolzenburg, a USDAA judge, said: "Nobody remembers who took second in 16" Jumpers two weeks ago (except maybe the handler who did it); everybody remembers who was a jerk to their dog/other competitors/the judge two years ago. Your reputation precedes you, and remains after you're gone."

 

And Melanie, USDAA isn't too scary; in fact, you can't title in starters/PI games so it's a great venue if, say, you just want to run Solo in Starters or PI gamblers. People think it's scary because of jump heights and A-Frame heights (too high) but now they have Performance classes, which mirrors our Specials classes in Canada (and it's a nicer name too).

 

Kristi

[Deacon Dog]

Let's imagine I live in northern Minnesota, and I'm into dog sled racing. I don't do this for a living, and traveling by dog sled isn't a necessity or even the easiest or most cost effective mode of transportation. I take good care of my dogs. Would it be wrong for me to breed them or buy them bred specifically for performing this activity?

 

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world I agree with you about breeding for dog sports. And, of course, turning the Border Collie into something other than what it should be for the sake of dog sports is a very bad thing. It's just that I don't want to be hypocritical by saying there's a distinction between breeding for good performance in some things, whether that be herding, hunting or sled dogs, and for breeding performance in other things like dog sports when there might not be one.

 

Tony Luper

Summerfield, NC

 

[This message has been edited by Deacon Dog (edited 10-29-2002).]

[Julia Hunt]

Melanie wrote: "Most of the serious sport people I know go through dogs like used sports equipment trying to find the one that's going to take them to the top, and they place their washouts in pet homes"

 

and

 

"But there is a sizeable contingent of people who are either at the top or want to be and they do wash out dogs. I also think this contingent is growing as dog sports become less of a game and more of a serious pursuit for more owners and trainers. Just look at how many people went from another breed to Border Collies specifically because they wanted to be more competitive. A lot of these people are interested in the sport first and the dog second."

 

and

 

"The other thing about many of these folks is that they buy dogs, they don't rescue them."

 

Well Melanie I guess I wonder where you live since this is not my experience in agility. I've been competing for 8 years in this sport, I would consider myself a 'serious' competitor, but not a 'top' one , I've started a couple of clubs, hosted a ton of events, and what you describe is a far cry from what I see. I could name one competitor that I would agree fits your description of 'going through dogs', and in that case, sad to say, I think the dogs are probably better off after they're placed. I can think of a couple other incidents of a top competitor returning a puppy within a couple weeks of getting it, beyond that all the 'washouts' I know are still living with the original owner, just not doing agility. I would also say that many of the agility competitors I know have at least one rescue in their home. Perhaps it's not the dog that's doing agility, and maybe that's why you have the impression we're not rescuing, but you would be wrong. My own household is 50% mutt plucked from the street (literally), 25% backyard accidental breeding and 25% imported ISDS border collie. I would be one of your 'went from another breed to a border collie' people. The generally accepted theory is that all of us who ever owned any other breed than a BC got a BC to be more competitive. In actuality I would say that many of us got a BC to have a dog which would love this sport as much as we do and would want to train as often as we do.

 

As far as the dog being secondary to the sport, I thought this was a curious comment since I would have thought that herding was the ultimate expression of 'the dog coming second' with the welfare of the livestock being the primary concern. I seem to recall a recent post on these boards about the number of dogs 'lost' annually on a major cattle ranch.

There are plenty of things wrong with agility, the 'sire of the moment' is unilaterally deaf and has produced deaf pups, yet people queue up to breed to him and his offspring are bred too. I'll agree with you on some of the 'dog sport' breeding practices, but not on your evaluation of 'most serious sport people'.

 

Julia

[Guest rtphokie]

I wouldn't recommend starting with a Border Collie to anyone learning agility. A slower dog is much more forgiving,

 

But many people get a BC and THEN decide to do agility because they realize their dog needs something to do (I fall in this category). People who run fast, motivated dogs have to train differently than people who are constantly trying to motivate and speed up their dogs. I wouldn't say either is easier, just different. Most new handlers do not know how to motivate. Some handlers get or stick with BC's because they have a desire to constantly work with you and motivation is not a problem. I think more highly of an individual who can take a non-traditional breed, or a rescue with issues, and work through the imperfections to success, no matter how small that success may be. Those people are better trainers than someone who just has to work on their timing and proofing contacts with a dog that will run for you all day long.

I also see some sport people not wanting rescues. they don't want to deal with baggage and/or they want to start with a clean bill of health from a proven line. I have three rescues, one dysplastic. For my 4th dog, I decided I wanted a pup from a (working) breeder because I wanted a young pup (my other girls I got as older pups or adults) and I wanted no known health problems. I'm very happy with what I got, even if she is a prick-eared moose!

 

Laura

Sierra, Casey, Zoe & Wick

Raleigh, NC

[brookcove]

Deacdog said: "It's just that I don't want to be hypocritical by saying there's a distinction between breeding for good performance in some things, whether that be herding, hunting or sled dogs, and for breeding performance in other things like dog sports when there might not be one."

 

Me: I do believe there is a difference. In the first case, ideally we are preserving a utilitarian function for which the breed was originated. I believe the sled dog people would disagree that sled dogs are not needed anymore - it's just that in your example you'd be falling into the "hobby sledding" category. Just as someone living in an urban area would never have a use for a trained sheepdog (but who knows?). But as you train you might find that your dog has exceptional genetics to offer to the sled dog world as a whole and your contribution could be made to those who DO use sled dogs every day. Same with hunting dog fanciers. Though the vast majority now breed to lower standards, there are still people who use their dogs to stock their freezers (umm, that is, they hunt with them, not put the dogs in the freezers!). Now the airports and law enforcement agencies are franctically looking for high-drive sniffer and search and rescue dogs and tragically are having to turn from the traditional hunting breeds to Border Collies.

 

Anyway that's my take on it. I see a huge difference between breeding for games and breeding for a function.

 

Hey how about this one? What about breeding for a NEW function? I mentioned BCs above working as law enforcement dogs and they are also used sparsely as assistance dogs. I know a lot of these programs breed their own dogs - where does that fall in the grand scheme of things?

 

------------------

Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC