DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Sue Barta, A quick question??how long have you been a member. In 1999, they changed the lifetime member dues to $100.00, prior to that it was $50.00 Now when did you become a lifetime member? I sure would hate to see you take advantage of people and get the $100 due you claim you paid especially if you paid the $50.00 dues. Diane Pagel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Hey,Diane, I don't even care about that. If she'll make the promises we've asked for and the ABCA won't refund her money, I don't mind getting taken for a $50 ride. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciesmom Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 OK, I'm new. The posts I have seen from Sue range from really good information to flames. A bit like everyone else. I understand the dual registry issue and am inclined to support a ban. But why does everyone dislike Sue. I checked her website (admittedly a limited bit of information) and it doesn't seem like she is such a bad BC person. Enlighten me, please? Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuck's BCBuddy Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Candace, Not to be at all facitious, but in the ending words of our local football team's new slogan, "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand". I think if you hang around long enough, without question, you'll get the answer to your query. Although, I have to honestly admit, I must've missed some of Sue's posts, as I can't really remember posts where there was much useful information, but instead, blatant attempts to stir up trouble, or undermine one of the true board contributors. But then again, I guess I could have some bias... Carl Hochberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 I know what Candace means about the duality or multiplicity -- let's call it "Cybil-ity" -- evident in Sue's posts. It has seemed at times that more than one person is logging on to the same user name. But I don't agree that the range Sue displays is "a bit like everyone else". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Candace, My objections are to Sue's breeding program. She breeds Border collies for the pet market, ignoring the working standard to which responsible breeders adhere. She breeds frequent litters, brags about the different colors of pups she produces. She continues to breed puppies despite the fact that she (at least at one point) claimed to have no interest in working her dogs on livestock. She has no idea whether her litters are doing any good for the breed as defined by the ABCA, and she has dismissed the ABCA's working standard as irrelevant to most Border collie owners. My answer to that is, fine -- then breed to the AKC appearance-based standard and stop muddying the waters. Get one one side of the fence or the other. To me, her breeding program epitomizes what is wrong with the Border collie world today. Too many people are breeding pups simply because there's a market for them. When you push Sue about how she knows a particular breeding is good, she can't tell you about the performance of her dogs on the trial field. All she can tell you is that people keep coming back for more pups. I don't know Sue. She may be a very nice person. In fact, I bet she is. It's not Sue I dislike, it's what she does with her dogs. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 09-13-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybelly Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 I have recently been searching for a new puppy, I have come across three different breeders now that are registering their dogs ABCA and have no idea what dog's are in the bloodline and I do believe one breeder may just be turning over puppies as she faxxed me the parents papers yesterday, one set looked as if she pasted and glued it together and photocopied them, and the age of the female wasn't even a year old, however the sire's line did seem quite nice and up to par. When I asked her on the line of the dogs she said quote "I don't know, I never look at their papers" The other two did have working dogs, but not trialing dogs, "they nip at the cow's feet when needed". They also did not know what dogs were in their pedigrees. So it seems to me, the waters are getting muddy by all types of breeders. I am sure this is a frustrating subject matter for some. If I had my rathers I would love to find a puppy with Tommy Wilson's Roy and the old Dell line, which Bruce Fogt had at one time, I was actively trialing and my dog was young when these dogs were at their prime. I am sure they are gone as is my dog. If anyone reads this and can direct me to a breeder or pup of that type, email me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Haybelly, ABCA registration is certainly no guarantee of a quality dog or a quality breeder. I wish it were in some ways, except that to make it so would divert resources from the good work the registry does toward enforcement. I'd still say that if you bought a pup from a reputable breeder who works with an upholds the ABCA mission, you'd be much more likley to have a good working dog two years down the road than if you bought one from a reputable AKC breeder who upholds that breed standard. There are irresponsible breeders in every registry. The job of those who are buying puppies is to weed them out and look for the lines they want, just as you are doing. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 haybelly, Sylvia Murray in Conn. had a daughter from Dell line. I believe Walt Jagger is running a bitch dog named Nan from Sylvia. As for Roy,do check with Tommy and Bruce both. Tommy's Hope and Bruce's Molly were repeated line (Roy X Jill Gill). Out in CA.,Wilda Bahr is running a Roy daughter out of C.Campion's Queen. Carol may be able to help you out. If I'll think of anyone else,I'll write back later. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Just got around to skimming through this thread: where do we stand with the refund fund? How much do I send? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Hi Margeret! I'm not sure, but I think we are down to about $20 / person at this point... Deb Iron Pheasant Farm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Well, I have received nothing from Ms. Barta, so I presume she has decided to try to go through the ABCA directly first. I'm sure she wouldn't be blowing smoke up our ... ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Thanks Deb! Bill, my checkbook is out,pen at the ready. Just say the word... ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Ewers Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 AKC vs ABCA-- Don't allow these AKC registered dogs in. We have to preserve what we have as it is. I have seen so many breeds destroyed because of the AKC standard. The Border Collies will become another AKC statistic. KEEP THEM SEPARATE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpNatEm Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 No Bill,I'm waiting to see what the verdict will be with ABCA as far as what they will choose in new registration rules.Doesn't really effect me since all my dogs are already reg.and any new litters can easily be reg.AKC even if I choose to resign from ABCA with new reg.rule.All the shows/trials I participate in are either AKC or Nadac-so like we ask earlier-what does ABCA offer us.? If C.Denise Wall is willing to type a resignation for me to sign right now and willing to refund my lifetime membership,so be it.Just one less litter application I have to bother with.Until then we'll see how serious ABCA is abot new rules and final verdict.The ball is in C.Denise Wall's court since she is one of the directors. Sue Barta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Sue, This started with you saying: "Hey McClark-thanks for the heads up because if a future ban goes into effect then I for one will demand my $100 back for lifetime membership and I will spread word to all other breeders in the country who dual register." How did this turn into the ball being in my court to type you a resignation from ABCA? This seems to have gotten all twisted around. BTW, I'm one of 12 ABCA directors and I have no special authority, rights or privileges. I was on a committee appointed to look into the effect of AKC on ABCA. The report was published here as well as other places for members' thoughts and discussion on this issue. Nothing has been decided yet. That's why we are discussing it - to further explore the issue and options. Even though I will have a vote just like the other 11 directors, I will not be the "one" deciding what ultimately happens. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 >>If C.Denise Wall is willing to type a resignation for me to sign right now and willing to refund my lifetime membership,so be it.Just one less litter application I have to bother with.Until then we'll see how serious ABCA is abot new rules and final verdict.The ball is in C.Denise Wall's court since she is one of the directors.<< Hum, I certainly don't remember Denise volunteering for this....as I recall you SAID YOU WOULD DEMAND a REFUND......why pass the *buck* (no pun intended) to Denise...is it because people actually did what you didn't expect then to do and you don't want to hold true to your claims? So Sue, are you passing the buck in hopes of getting out of your *claim* as I recall you wrote >>Done-put your money where your mouth is and fork it over.Money talks,bulls&**t walks<< well.....the money has been out out.....are you all *walk?* Diane Pagel (i'll pitch in to this fund....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Diane, This sort of thing is about what I expected. That's one of the reasons I didn't offer to refund her dues without a signed pledge. Sue -- the my offer stands. If the ABCA won't refund your money, send me the letter of resignation along with a pledge that you will not register any more pups with the ABCA, nor register any ABCA dogs with the AKC at any point in the future -- both signed in ink and witnessed -- and I will send you $100. Thanks to everyone who has offered to contribute to this fund. I'll let you know in the unlikely event that I get anything from Sue. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Am I the only one who finds this C. Denise Wall twist sorta...well...twisted? On the other hand, what's one little letter Denise? Go ahead, take a walk on the wild side. The way the refund fund is going we might be able to make it worth your while. ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpNatEm Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 I directed my post to C.Denise Wall,as one of the directors,because my opinion is if ABCA is objecting to dual registered dogs then ABCA can feel free to send me a letter of resignation with my lifetime membership refund.Why should I trust the heresay of cyber nuts who I've never met.They are like lawyers,LOL,can't trust them.If the organization wants me out let them do the paper work. Sue Barta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Sue, Maybe next time, you, as one of us "cyber nuts", will think before posting. You are the one who stated you would pull out of the ABCA and demand your $100 bucks back. Bill Fosher made a generous offer and you backed down. It is not Denise's responsibility to fill out the paper work, it is your responsibility to write the letter and make your opinion known. Your attitude is a common one these days...it's always someone else's responsibility, fault, or problem. Be a responsible adult. Don't say something (let alone post it) if you do not mean it. If you do mean it, then be a responsible adult and proceed with the action you propose. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Bill >>This sort of thing is about what I expected. That's one of the reasons I didn't offer to refund her dues without a signed pledge.<< Let me see she has gone from demanding her money back to demanding the ABCA send her a letter to sign.....talk about switching directions!!! She said to send her the $$ and gave us her address but when push came to shove she backtracked and in her usual way, insulted everyone. and Sue wrote: >>Why should I trust the heresay of cyber nuts who I've never met<< heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards hearsay: rumor heresay: ???? which one did you mean???? .......how does offering someone who DEMANDS her refund turn people into cybernuts? .....and >>They are like lawyers,LOL,can't trust them.<< .....again Bill, you offer her REFUND and you can't be trusted? ...all talk and no show..... Thanks Bill for your efforts.... Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpNatEm Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 "Let me see she has gone from demanding her money back to demanding the ABCA send her a letter to sign.....talk about switching directions!!!-" Nope,if ABCA really wants people out that have dual reg. dogs then let them write the paperwork up. "She said to send her the $$ and gave us her address but when push came to shove she backtracked and in her usual way, insulted everyone. and Sue wrote: >>Why should I trust the heresay of cyber nuts who I've never met<< heresy: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards hearsay: rumor heresay: ???? which one did you mean????" -heresay-just an opinion ......."how does offering someone who DEMANDS her refund turn people into cybernuts?"- Cybernuts are people who don't know the other person they are talking to,never met them and could easily say anything and also spend all their time on the internet. .....and >>They are like lawyers,LOL,can't trust them.<< Obviously .....again Bill, you offer her REFUND and you can't be trusted?-Nope I could type up somethng and send it and never hear from anyone again.Like I said-if ABCA is adament to clear out those members who also compete in AKC then forward my name to the head honcho C.Denise Wall,type me up a resignation with check in hand.Like I said-it's in ABCA's ball court and not Jo Bloe down the road.Skirt the issue-nope,my offer is to the real directors of the organization and since this forum also has a thread just for the ABCA directors this should be forwarded over to them. Sue Barta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 Wow, now Sue is also a lexicographer! Make up a new word *and* define it. Suppose it fits with her vision of reality -- whatever suits me at the moment. As far as I know, the ABCA is not adamant about clearning out members who dual-register their dogs. We just might change the rules to prohibit it. Since you're a member of the ABCA, you have a voice in this. It's not up to the ABCA to refund your dues if you don't like what the membership guides the directors to do; it's up to you to help guide the directors to a resolution that you desire. If you can't do that, and you feel that you can no longer support the organization, then it is up to you, 100 percent, to take the step of resigning from it. It is not at all incumbent on any organization to "do the paperwork" for members who wish to leave the organization for whatever reason. As with most of your involvement with dogs, this comes down to money, doesn't it, Sue? You're not willing to give up your ABCA membership as a matter of prinicple -- you want your money back. I'm not sure that the ABCA is going to be willing to do that. What I've offered to do is bridge the gap between what the ABCA can do in general, and what I think it should do in your particular case. If money is the only obstacle to keeping you and your twisted worldview out of the ABCA, I would be happy to invest $100 in the future of the organization and the breed. And apparently there are several others who are willing to join me. Anytime you want to take us up on the offer (and it's very simple and has been put very clearly), we're ready. There's no further negotiations. But because you're sometimes a little challenged when it comes to remembering just what the deal is, here are the steps: 1.) Resign from the ABCA. 2.) Pledge to forever refrain from registering dogs with the ABCA and from registering any ABCA dog you obtain in the future with the AKC. 3.) If the ABCA refuses to refund your dues money, send me your letter of resignation and the pledge described in item 2 and I will immediately send your letter of resignation to the ABCA and check for $100 to you. There's another option open to you. You could simply suck it up an resign as a matter of principle if you think what the ABCA is doing is wrong. But you might also want to wait and see what the actual outcome of the vote is before you decide that the ABCA does nothing for you. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuck's BCBuddy Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 Bill, As you originated the idea of the fund, will you be the fund administrator? In Sue's words, I may be a "cybernut", but I, for one, meant what I wrote. I will most certainly contribute my share to the fund, if it ever happens, i.e. if Sue ever backs up her statement, and abides by the provisions set forth for getting this refund. Well, if so, you know my e-mail address for contact on the details of my contribution. Carl Hochberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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