Jump to content
BC Boards

AKC


ragtimedog
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm new to the thread so forgive me if I repeat covered ground. Does the AKC still register BC's with ILP's? What is the ABCA's position on ILP's since they are essentially a non-breeding, limited registration for performance competition only?

I have to say, I read the article with great interest. I got into BC's partly BECAUSE they were NOT AKC registered and were not subject to the breed ring. I think we have to remember, that a good working Border Collie is also capable of doing a good job in obedience and agility and that is not where the danger lies. (I have feelings about the breed ring that I will not vent at this time....) Not only will banning those folks who enjoy those activities force them to take sides, but might drive people away who might otherwise register with the ABCA.

And, as far as requiring working ability for "A" registration, what is the policy now as far as a dog's working ability? Aren't there dogs registered with no ability at all?

On the other hand, I do know that some horse breed registries require a video and/or personal appraisal of a gaited horse to verify that the horse is of one of the gaited breeds. Guess you can tell I have more questions than answers. I do appreciate that the ABCA is considering its actions carefully and listening to the BC owners on this issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I hesitate to answer, since I can only answer half your questions definitively:

Yes, AKC will give ILP listing to border collies, with no "paper trail" of registrations, breeding, etc. This does not mean that AKC will register border collies ONLY as ILPs.

 

All one needs to get the ILP number is two photos, some money of course, and an application which describes why you think the dog is the breed you're trying to register it as. I supposed this could include ABCA registration, or behavior, or whatever you know about breeding, or whatever.

 

I believe that if you have something like ABCA papers, that AKC will accept them and let you register the dog if it is not desexed as a "full" registration. This is what folks have referred to as "extending" the registration period (right, folks?!) - trying to get more dogs into their system.

 

I don't know for sure about ABCA's position on ILPs, but I believe they simply do not support dual registration. I.e., you register with AKC and you're "out" of ABCA. As many of the other discussions have touched on, the problem is that there is no way to track this, and due to that, not enforced.

 

To a small degree, I have to respectfully disagree with you, ragtimedog, about "a good working Border Collie is also capable of doing a good job in obedience and agility and that is not where the danger lies." There is a danger there, because folks get into obedience or agility (or flyball or other "sports"), and win with border collies. Then pretty soon everyone wants one, and where are they going to get these "sports" dogs? Not from herding/working dog breeders! OK, some might; but many will simply seek out their own, or breed their own. And down the tube goes the talented herding dogs.

 

Many have said they don't "mind" having the herding "rejects" going into other performance events. But therein does lie the danger of winning with the breed, and popularity, and our greed for more wins. (I'm amazed at some really good agility folks who started with a varity of other breeds, have won some very impressive trials, and THEN get a border collie....because they want to be more competitive in the future.)

 

More answers from others, I hope....

 

diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you about the type of BC that wins at obedience. I've seen the preferred type and I've also seen them attempt to work. (There is a wide gulf between the so-called "working instinct" and the "working ABILITY", I realize). I guess I meant that the breed ring can do more damage in more ways.

I have a pup now that had the misfortune to be born while I am waiting to buy some property to move our sheep home. He has only seen sheep once and took right to the idea of working. To keep him occupied, I've done some puppy obedience with him and he loves it. I don't see the harm in doing "cross-training" as long as the dog isn't taught to do anything that would interfer with his training on stock. I currently have more dogs than sheep (trying to correct that) so we do whatever it takes to keep mind and body occupied. But I do know what you mean about the dangers.

Also, when I was competing in AKC obedience, dogs had to be neutered to be registered with an ILP. I had racing stock Greyhounds that I registered as well as a rescue Poodle (NO LAUGHING! He was a hoot to train!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A PS, afterthought....I was under the impression that the AKC would not allow BC's to register with an ILP as long as the registry was open. The goal, apparently, to get more dogs in the registry books. I could be mistaken about that.

Believe me, I have no love for the AKC, but I do like doing things with my dogs. I'm not sure I'd ever compete at an obedience trial again, but I'd like to have it as an option. I should say, I like to have FUN with my dogs. I've given up the high-powered obedience competition since I discovered the joy of watching a good dog work sheep. But some of the sheepdog trials I've been to lately have been a real turn-off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Denise is correct - border collies can be ILPed with no pedigree or other information, and probably AKC will do this forever. They must be desexed, and you send in money. That's it!

 

I believe the "open registry" is strictly for "real" registration, for breeding stock. That's what they've left open longer than planned, because they didn't get enough registrations in before they closed. But heck, what do I know about this? Only what I've "heard...."

 

diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just learned of the AKC debate, and I think its a waste of time. AKC is getting more registered dogs a year than ABCA and ABCA would be slitting their own throats financially to ban or restrict dogs registered with both. I registered my bitch before knowing about the debate, but don't regret it because there are more AKC events locally for us to participate in. I work 40+ hours a week and can not attend the nationals in MO if I wanted to. Not all border collie owners have land and sheep, ducks or cattle to herd. Really only a small percentage do compared to all the border collie owners in the nation. We are suppose to be uniting in times as these and I think if ABCA would work with AKC instead of against it, it would be to your favor. For instance several breed clubs, such as yours, are sponsoring obedience events at the AKC show this October in Fort Worth, but ABCA is not nor any other BC club. We attended a show in Dallas a few weeks ago, ABCA nor any other BC club sponsored an event or prize for the winner. But other breed clubs did. I vote for Option F, do nothing, that is what you do currently for the BC owners of the DFW area right now anyway. However in October in East Dallas there is a herding club sponsoring a herding event, will ABCA be there to sponsor anything or offer a prize to the highest scoring BC, no, will I see ABCA at any event I could take my BC to, locally, no. So what does your club offer the folks that register with your club? Think about it. Will I be registering my litter with your club, will you recieve the revenue from my litter(s) we shall see, by your decision. I do expect a refund for her registration with your club should you decide to ban or restrict her from the ABCA club, because I was not notified upon registration of these upcoming decisions. How many will also want refunds, and can your club afford to refund us all? See there are legal and financial aspects I have not seen mentioned in your board meetings. Legally, in Texas I am also intitled to a refund of the interest my registration payment would have accrued for you holding my money for a registration you are taking from us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>>>I do expect a refund for her registration with your club should you decide to ban or restrict her from the ABCA club, <<<

 

Firstly, the ABCA is NOT a club.

 

Second,you should get your money back from your breeder WHO actually created the litter and REGISTERED the litter with the ABCA and PAID for it but I must ask this ,did you buy your pup under the impression of "registered with the AKC"?. If you failed to ask the breeder about the registry and it's differences at that time,I don't see why you feel as people owe you.

On your next purchase,ask for an AKC registered pup,not the ABCA and don't buy one if you've been told the litter is "dual registered" or "registered with the ABCA".

 

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mcclark,

 

The Future Ban seems most likely to go through, in which case you will not receive a refund because you will be allowed to retain papers. You just won't be allowed to register pups with both organizations, as was already clearly stated in ABCA rules- no dog registered can have a kennel club ancestor. That rule was there when you registered your dog, and if ABCA has decided to enforce it now, they are free to do so.

 

As far as ABCA doing anything for you, the pet owner- I don't know why you would expect a working registry to spend money on obedience events. Why does anyone owe your clubs money? Raise it yourself, many clubs and groups do. Herding events are subsidized by ABCA.. did you ever get off your butt and petition for the money? No? Then you have no right to complain because ABCA does not seek you out. AKC is there because people have sought it out, wanting titles and the like, or they wouldn't be there either. ABCA gives money to research that will specifically aid the Border Collie, it supports the National Finals- which you may not go to, but whose existance ensures the Border Collie will remain the breed that you enjoy.

 

 

 

------------------

Jaime R. Green

http://www.hometown.aol.com/smokjbc/SmokinJbc.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Karen Rabbitt

McClark,

 

While I think you just posted to get peoople riled up I also think you need a lesson in the history of not only the BC but "clubs" as well.

 

*******

I just learned of the AKC debate, and I think its a waste of time. AKC is getting more registered dogs a year than ABCA

*******

 

Yes, if you take this literally. However, they are not getting more Border Collies and we all know the difference of quality versus quantity.

 

******

For instance several breed clubs, such as yours, are sponsoring obedience events at the AKC show this October in Fort Worth, but ABCA is not nor any other BC club.

*****

 

ABCA is NOT a club. It is a regisrty as is AKC.

 

*******

We attended a show in Dallas a few weeks ago, ABCA nor any other BC club sponsored an event or prize for the winner. But other breed clubs did.

********

 

Maybe because there are no BC clubs per se?

 

*******

I vote for Option F, do nothing, that is what you do currently for the BC owners of the DFW area right now anyway.

********

 

Hmm, ok, what do you want the ABCA registry to do? And, most important, what do you do for the BC?

 

*******

Will I be registering my litter with your club, will you recieve the revenue from my litter(s) we shall see, by your decision.

*******

 

Good greif, now your a breeder? By all means, please do register with AKC. BTW, are you a member of ABCA?

 

I think though that replying to this post is in vain. I wonder "who" you really are since you didn't sign your name and you have a juno account?

 

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey McClark-thanks for the heads up because if a future ban goes into effect then I for one will demand my $100 back for lifetime membership and I will spread word to all other breeders in the country who dual register.And if ABCA is like AKC,just a registry then YES what has ABCA offered when AKC supplies so many events for us.

 

Sue Barta

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mcclark

 

I can feel your pain!

 

Please, PLEASE, ask for a refund for your border collie, return it to the breeder, and get a real purebred, AKC dog. You will be much happier!

 

(Just FYI, the real National Finals, the event that the ABCA is concerned with, are in Tennessee, not MO.)

 

Have fun with your new dog!

 

Laura

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sue,

 

In the last couple of weeks, there have been several threads in which the many contributions that the ABCA makes to the breed have been discussed.

 

In addition to its support of the national finals, it funds research into genetic diseases and conditions that affect the breed. It makes grants to local clubs to sponsor events that either educate Border collie owners or promote the working breed. It's worth pointing out that with the AKC, all the money flows from the local club to the AKC in the form of sanctioning or licensing fees, while the ABCA actually provides funding to help events take place.

 

What does the AKC actually do for any of the breeds it registers? Diddly-squat. It takes the money from people who register pups and spends it on staff salaries and offices in New York City.

 

I would be happy to refund your $100 dues -- personally if the ABCA won't do it -- if you would leave the association and pledge to never register another dog with it, and to never register another ABCA dog with the AKC.

 

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mclark,

 

Before you get in too big of a snit about the money you've "lost" to our registry, bear in mind that the fee to register a dog with the ABCA just went up to $8 this year. It had been $6 for many years before that.

 

The ABCA doesn't sponsor prizes at dog shows because it is opposed to conformation showing of dogs and is founded on the principal that this is a working breed and that its working ability should be preserved.

 

It is a member-owned registry. Your dues ($10 per year) would entitle you to a vote at the Annual General Meeting, and a vote for a board member who would like to change the ABCA from a registry with the guiding principal of preserving and improving the working dog to a registry that provides prizes for show dogs.

 

I think you'd lose, but it would entitle you to a vote.

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Done-put your money where your mouth is and fork it over.Money talks,bulls&**t walks.Let's see,with all my dogs dual reg.and two are used for breeding and competing,what am I missing out of if ABCA kicks me out-Nothing.There's still tons of AKC trials and Nadac.

So ya all send my $100 to

Sue Barta

26060 Territorial Rd.

Rogers,MN.55374

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll have to see the signed original of your letter of resignation from the ABCA, and making the two specific pledges I've asked for: First, that you will not register another dog with the ABCA, and second, that you will not register any ABCA-registered dog that you now own or that comes into your possession with the AKC.

 

Send it to me, if I feel it meets my specs, I'll forward it to the ABCA and send you a money order for $100 in the same day's mail.

 

Better have your signature witnessed and notorized. I want this to be airtight.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

 

[This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 09-11-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 09-11-2002).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...