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Young pups very fearful


jenfitzh20
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I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with very young pups (10-12 weeks) showing signs of extreme fearfulness of humans? I got a call from the owner of a couple of new border collie pups, apparently were purchased from a puppy mill (guessing this after hearing the description of the kennel). They were told the pups were 8 wks old when they got them the vet is thinking they were much younger, maybe 5-6 weeks old. They discovered bad instestinal worms after they'd had them a week and treated the pups for that (don't know what kind). The couple have had the pups for 1 month now and have yet been able to get close to them easily. They have done just about everything they can think of, lie on the floor, tried to hand feed (fillet no less), ignoring them etc. The pups are still terrified of them. They are crated seperately and are in the bedroom with them at night. They do have one other dog that is 2 yrs old and they all get along very well, it seems that one of the pups and the older dog also have a tendancy to try to protect the other pup by surrounding it when the people approach.

 

I'm a bit confused, I've just never seen pups that young display that much prolonged fear of humans. Any suggestions besides patience?

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Jennifer - you have pretty well answered your own question. It is the way they were raised.

 

A person that attended training classes in my area a couple of years ago, had purchased a German Shepherd bitch at 8 weeks old. The litter was raised in a shed in the backyard - that's where they were whelped. Their only contact with humans was when the jerk went out and fed the bitch and later the pups. The owner didn't bring her to classes until the dog was about 10 months old.

 

Needless to say, the dog was and still is totally screwed up, and when I traced other pups from the litter they were all mentally screwed up - and never became normal dogs.

 

I just had a border collie puppy in my puppy class that was raised in the barn - very little contact. She was 11 weeks old when she came to class. She was supposed to be 8 weeks old when they purchased her, but they think she was actulaly about 6 weeks old.

 

The dog was afraid of people, noises, even different smells, etc etc. The puppy was so full of worms it wasn't even funny. No socialization at all.

 

The people that had purchased her have been absolutely awesome and understanding with this puppy, but she has a long way to go before being classified as "normal" The only thing that is in her favour is that she has a freeze and flight reponse, not a fight response.

 

They understand that she may never be "normal" and are prepared to accept that. I couldn't ask for a nicer family to work with. The young teenagers in the family are also wonderful and are putting in lots of time with her as well. She has come along way though, and you wouldn't recognize her as the same puppy that came to class the first night.

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My Ben had a similiar upbringing except he was five months old when he was finally given to rescue!! He was a mental mess. It took about a year before he seemed pretty much normal but most people are shocked when I tell them what he was like the first year we had him.

 

I called our method of handling him "Serendipty". I didn't know it at the time but it has a lot of similiarity to O/C behavior shaping. I pretended to ignore him as much as possible, but if he did something right (like volunteer to enter the room we were in), I'd whisper, "Good boy" and throw a treat his way. Sometimes he'd eat the treat and sometimes not, but he knew it was there, where it came from and eventually he'd pick it up when we weren't looking.

 

If we had to handle him we'd still ignore him as much as possible - if he was freaking out on the leash he got no sympathy and no corrections. He got placed in and out of the car with no fuss (except on his part). Unfortunately it is still true that he hates the leash and being groomed and riding in the car. In a perfect world we could have introduced those concepts on his terms but life demanded a speedier and more traumatizing introduction to those basics. But a lot of dogs hate those things and wouldn't be considered neurotic. The important thing is that he went from literally hiding under stuff to avoid even people he knew, to being our Walmart greeter. We're in training to get his Therapy Dog Intl certification and our big problem is keeping him from hurling his happy 50 pound self at new people!

 

I do have to admit that some of this is due to his breeding - he comes from lines that produce dogs of very solid temperament (I have yet to meet a Dryden Joe dog that wasn't in a constant state of utter happygoluckiness [my new word for the day]!). I know other rescue dogs that didn't turn out so well, I suppose because their genetics don't provide the resilience needed. I think those dogs are unusual though - adaptibility to changing circumstances is a necessity to the working Border Collie and I would hope we are in general staying close to that standard.

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Originally posted by jenfitzh20:

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with very young pups (10-12 weeks) showing signs of extreme fearfulness of humans? I got a call from the owner of a couple of new border collie pups, apparently were purchased from a puppy mill (guessing this after hearing the description of the kennel). They were told the pups were 8 wks old when they got them the vet is thinking they were much younger, maybe 5-6 weeks old. They discovered bad instestinal worms after they'd had them a week and treated the pups for that (don't know what kind). The couple have had the pups for 1 month now and have yet been able to get close to them easily. They have done just about everything they can think of, lie on the floor, tried to hand feed (fillet no less), ignoring them etc. The pups are still terrified of them. They are crated seperately and are in the bedroom with them at night. They do have one other dog that is 2 yrs old and they all get along very well, it seems that one of the pups and the older dog also have a tendancy to try to protect the other pup by surrounding it when the people approach.

 

I'm a bit confused, I've just never seen pups that young display that much prolonged fear of humans. Any suggestions besides patience?

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Well Tucker for some reason is very scared of men lately. He only likes my dad, of course, and my Uncle Jopey who is over all the time. Whenever a guy comes he starts to get a deep bark and growl, hair goes straight up on his back, and he runs away. I don't understand why he is doing this and am hoping that it is just a faze as he is 4 months old. He did this to my mom's friends husband who went and picked him up with us the night we got him and Tucker was all over him. He came to us at 9 weeks of age from Canada, he came from a loving family with 4 children. So he really doesn't have a reason to be scared of men, nobody has ever hurt or tried to hurt him. He loves children though, boys too. We'll see like I said I'm hoping it is a 4 month old thing where they are afraid of the things that they normally aren't.

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This is a tough one. I would feel more comfortable if the littermates were in separate homes. But since that's not the case, can the pups be handled at all, even if they are terrified? They have to be handled at some point. Personally, what I would do, while they are still small, I would carry the pup everywhere with me. Although at first he won't be a willing partner, he'll learn to relax, even a little at some point. He would become like an appendage. Feeding at first would be done sitting on a recliner, by hand, from my lap. He would be on my lap while watching television. If I had to get up to answer the phone, for example, I would carry the pup with me. If I went to the fridge or made myself a cup of tea, I'd be holding the pup. I've actually done the laundry one handed, holding a pup. The pup is going to struggle to get away, but don't let him. Eventually you could sneak in the tummy rubs, the ear massages.

 

I'd lie down on the bed, with the pup next to me. Talk to him, stroke him. If he bolts, bring him back.

 

At some point, it's not going to be possible to do this, so I'd do it now while they are little enough to pick up & hold.

 

Since there are 2, is there someone else in the home to do the same with the other pup? Or perhaps one can temporarily go somewhere where they could get really intensive one on one attention?

 

Really sad. Will you keep us posted?

 

Vicki

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Thanks for your suggestions everyone. I also was concerned about the sibling thing. I know first hand how dependent one can become on the other. I've also had experience with young dogs that have had either poor socialzation or no socilization from day one, not a pretty sight. Just stumped me that they were so young and even after a month of, what sounded like, appropriate, gentle contact still produced very fearful pups. Usually, in my experience anyway, its the older adolescents that hang on to the fearfulness and not 10 week old pups.

 

Well, I went to see the pups on Friday. Not at all what I expected. They were shy but not nearly as shy as I thought they'd be. My rescue partner and I sat on the floor with them and coaxed them to us with treats. They came, got the treat and darted back but by the time we left, we had them on our laps licking our faces. I even was able to hold one of them on its back, albeit briefly, but on his back just the same (w/o him producing a fountain of pee that I was warned he'd done before). We took an older bc of ours along, 10 yrs old and she's very gentle and good with pups. She pretty much ignored them and they barked their little heads off at her at first but then one of them decided to give her a sniff. The next instant they are both licking her muzzle and wagging their cute little butts all over the place.

 

They definitely need tons of socialization work and training but they are not the worst I've seen. They owners are pretty dedicated and are going to enroll them in obedience as well as getting them involved in flyball and agility when they are old enough. We intend to keep in contact with them to make sure all is going well. They are beautiful pups too! One's red/white with the most beautiful amber eyes! I think in this case, the owners just had higher (too high) expectations. Especially given the description of the place they came from. BTW, they paid $275 for both pups, pretty much says it all.

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