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Oreo is sick (his personal body parts are discussed - sorry!


Oreo's mom
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We had to take Oreo to the emergency vet late last night. He had been very lethargic all day and just looked and acted miserable. Hunched over when he sat. Muscuosy poop, vomiting foam and bile. Not the slightest bit interested in his food.

 

ER vet took 1 x-ray looking for blockages and nothing showed up. Apparently it looks like Oreo has gas, but he's not noticeably passing any. Vet gave Oreo 10 mg/ml of famotidine and 5mg/ml metoclopramide and sent us home with instructions to see our vet this am.

 

Regular vet kept him all day and he had "fluid therapy" and was administered what looks like "polyflex" (can't read the carbon copy). They did a CBC of which we won't have the results of until tomorrow. He is to go back again tomorrow a.m..

 

Husband brought him home from vet this evening, Oreo peed a long time (I imagine from IV all day), came in and took a drink of water and promptly threw up several times. Vet told hubby something about a possible viral thing could be going on...

 

Last Saturday we had taken him to a dog park and then to a do it yourself dog wash. I scrubbed him gently but thoroughly in his "private area" because it was filthy and seemed crusty (which is totally not like Oreo.

 

Could that bath have caused a kidney or bladder infection? I am feeling SO guilty and stupid because I am afraid I brought this on. I had mentioned his penis crustiness to the er vet but am not sure I mentioned the bath.

 

Sorry this isn't very coherant, but we are very worried about our "boy".

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It's pretty unlikely that you caused a bladder infection by bathing; for one thing, unless he REALLY liked his bath, you were probably just washing his sheath, which protects his actual doggy penis, and you probably didn't even get anything in the sheath, let alone in the urethra. For another, in male animals of all descriptions, the urethra is long and narrow (all boasting, exaggeration and eyebrow waggling aside, every normal male animal has a looooong trek up the urethra before you get to the bladder compared to the females. Except maybe in hyenas, not sure on that one.) So even though I'll quote Dr. Howie again and say: never say never and always avoid always in medicine, I think it'd be a real longshot to have caused this by bathing. However, it IS possible that the reason you were noticing the crusting in the first place was that he had a pre-existing situation with his "plumbing" that is now related to the vomiting issues.

 

Ths gas accumulation *might* be ileus, which is a sort of temporary paralysis of the gut where it stops its peristalsis and nothing gets pushed through, even the gas. Then it accumulates until the gut resumes its activities (the motoclopramide should help with this, as well as the vomiting, so long as nothing else is going on like an undiagnosed obstruction or something - seems unlikely in view of the X-ray).

 

If Oreo doesn't start to feel better soon, or if he starts to feel worse, you might consider having bloodwork run, +/- a re-check X-ray. If it's just a virus - which we do see traveling through different areas from time to time - he should start to feel better ususally in about 72 hours, though he may not be totally well for a week to ten days (as a general ballpark rule of thumb.) Also, a stool sample is part of the minimum data base for any vomiting/diarrhea/lack of appetite dog, so if he gives you one, you might consider having that checked.

 

Poor Oreo! I hope he feels better soon.

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AK Doc, thank you SO MUCH for your prompt, thoughtful & informative reply and for making me laugh at the same time - I really needed both.

 

and no, he really didn't enjoy his bath at all but I nearly snorted my Earl Grey tea out of my nose laughing when I thought about it. Never having had a male dog, I am pretty clueless about some things.

 

He perked up enough to bark when my husband came home a little while ago but then he peed on the carpet without even seeming like he knew he was doing it. He also peed right on the back porch instead of making his rounds to the fence and the oak barrel.

 

Thanks for the suggestion re: stool sample. Never occured to us and we weren't asked to get one. My first post had some horrible mistyped word that was supposed to be "mucousy". He doesn't seem to have diarrhea, tho.

 

Thanks again! Hopefully he will rest well tonight and we'll have good news from the vet when he goes back in.

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Oreo had another not great night. Vomiting, pee accidents, restless. Bloody, explosive diarrhea this morning on the way to the vet. It amazed me how he didn't do that in the house and wouldn't get into the car until he did what he had to do. what a special boy.

 

Took him to our vet this a.m. They took another x-ray to check for further obstructions and said that there was improvement there (his bowels looked better).

 

they couldnt tell a whole lot from the stool sample. (I had just scooped up a handful of bloody stool on the snow in the newspaper bag I always seem to have in my coat pocket.)

 

His temp was 102.4 (elevated over yesterday's 102). Red blood cell count is higher. 40 - 50% is normal. His was 53% yesterday and 66% today. I think she called it HEG (hemo...something...gastro...something). His blood is thick and it's making it hard for his body to circulate it. stressing his organs, i think.

 

he will be on fluids and antibiotics today and stay there until 4:00 when we should be able to bring him home for the night and then take him back in tomorrow.

 

doc said it could be the result of stress, a virus, a bacterial infection (i assume that would come from something he ate). my poor little garbage hound. :rolleyes:

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HGE, I think - hemorragic gastroenteritis. These dogs usually get a high red cell count (I've seen them up to 80%, which is REALLY high) and have bloody diarrhea, but they generally do great in the long run - usually need fluid and antibiotic support, and hospitalization naturally since they're on IV's, but that has the advantage that the hospital staff has clean-up duty, not you! (Nothing is quite as ripe as bloody diarrhea...)

 

If it's HGE, he should do very well, and most recover in about 72 hours after hospitalization. May need a bath after it's all over, though.

 

You might consider doing a fecal again when his stool is more normal, just in case, if he's inclined toward dietary indiscretions. It's not REAL likely that parasites kicked this off, but it's possible. That might be just me being overly cautious, but you know how I am. :rolleyes:

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AK dog doc,

Someone suggested to me that the symptoms could be consistent with "dog show crud" (bacterial overgrowth in the intestine). Do you think that's a possibility?

 

Oreo's mom,

Re: my comment above. Get on google and search "dog show crud." Ask your vet if this is a possibility. The treatment could be a little different than that for HGE (unless they're the same, which either AK or your vet should know). Anyway, the sites I saw gave pretty detailed descriptions, right down to a "flowery smell" (don't ask me what that means) to the diarrhea. Just another possibility you might want to consider.

 

J.

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Hi Julie

Yes, it certainly could be, but I think Oreo is on antimicrobials already, so that should cover him. In general with HGE's I see packed cell counts in the upper 60's and 70's; he falls at the lower end of that range, but he did have some fluid therapy already so I wonder if that might be hemodiluting him a bit. Hard to say for sure since he has also been urinating a bunch.

 

In general with bloody diarrheas I tend to put them on antibiotics because the presence of blood in the stool where it does not belong means there's also the possibility of the presence of microbes in the bloodstream where THEY don't belong.

 

It's a good thought, though, and it may be we'll never know for sure. His current therapy should be reasonable for either possibility, however.

 

Out of curiosity, Oreo's mom, where in CO are you, if you don't mind saying? I graduated from CSU, and some of my classmates still practice in the state...

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Thanks AK doc and Julie for your continuing ideas and thoughts re: Oreo.

 

I took him in again today (he gets to come home each night, which I like because I have been missing him so much and can keep an eye on him). The vets are keeping him again during today to check his #s (blood count?) to see if they have gone down.

 

This afternoon they will give him a little food and see how he handles that. He looked much better this a.m. and even checked out his empty food bowl as well as heading to where his treats are kept for after he goes out to pee, so that is an improvement. We still have everything even remotely edible high, high up as if he were a very large toddler. However, it may be possible that this all happened because he ate something totally unedible.

 

Can't remember if I said earlier the vets said it could be stress, something he ate or a viral thingy.

 

Not sure at this point the cause. People have mentioned the nastiness of squirrel poop, rabbit poop, etc. We even occassionally have fox hanging around but not much in our yard since the advent of Oreo with us and coyotes in a nearby municipal golf course.

 

AK doc, I live in Colorado Springs. My younger brother graduated from CSU, but that's been quite a while ago.

 

Thanks again for all the advice and information.

 

I am going to quit posting now because the more I read this and go back and try to clarify my thoughts, the worse it gets. :rolleyes:

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It really is a smaller world than we think, isn't it? If you feel comfortable privately sending me her name and / or clinic, please do. I am very happy with the treatment Oreo is getting, but it can never hurt to have a personal recommendation for another vet.

 

Another question...my parents wondered if Oreo could have gotten into my husband's tobacco chew. :rolleyes: A nasty habit hubby picked up in AK. He does leave the chew can unattended at times and puts the remains in kleenexes where ever he happens to be. and oreo loves kleenex. i promised myself i would not confront him and throw a fit until i checked into it. would nicotine have caused these symptoms? would this have shown up in Oreo's lab tests?

 

right now Oreo is on Eukenuba low residue food, small frequent meals, and has to take 500 mg cephalexin. he's not completely his old self, but he has given some thought to herding our cat around in the house and barked at a squirrel outside. he has a followup on either monday or tuesday of next week.

 

thanks again for your concern and input.

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Yes, the nicotine can absolutely cause vomiting and diarrhea as well as other symptoms - I'm about to run off to the clinic Xmas party (it would be next week except that I'm on call that weekend, dang it) so I can't do a good summary of nicotine poisoning right now, but I'll do one later for you. Excessive amounts can be fatal, however, so be careful.

 

Good thought about that possibility - my dogs LOVE used kleenex :eek: and are always stealing it out of the trash any time anyone has a cold - so that would definitely happen here.

 

Will email with clinic info - your vet sounds very good, though. But I know what you mean about wanting to have a backup just in case (like if yours is out of town or something).

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Thanks AK Dog Doc

 

Hope you have an enjoyable time at the Christmas celebration.

 

Oreo continues to improve :D Right now he's on the couch with his head on a pillow (his decision)and he's covered up with a blanket (my daughter's idea).

 

I will be very interested in the nicotine poisoning info, whenever you have the time.

Hubby loves Oreo but he still is in denial mode with him about all sorts of things ("he won't get into that" etc) :mad:

 

How's the weather up there? Not sure, but I thought I read that you were close to Eagle River, Wasilla or something. It was 10 degrees here this morning :rolleyes: but at least the sun was shining!! (spoken as a true S.A.D. sufferer)

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The party was fun, thanks (great food and company, an excellent fireworks display - well, not just for us, it was Colony Days, a local celebration - really fun Chinese auction, or whatever the PC equivalent is - very good loot this year). And you got my location right; it was about 20 degrees here today, overcast, slight breeze. Not very cold. But last week it was shirtsleeve weather, in the low to mid 30's all week, which melted down some of the 3 feet of snow we had and made things a little icy. Not too bad. It's only a week 'til the light starts coming back anyway, and while it's slow at first, I pretty much feel like winter is over come mid-February. Sure, there's still snow, but hey - that means skiing and snowshoeing and dogsledding. Sure it's occasionally cold, but hey - can't be worse than January, right? So about then I start developing spring fever and begin bouncing around like a maniac. You know how I am.

 

So, on to the nicotine poisoning. I'm going to assume you're more interested in dosage and symptoms than the mechanism, so I'll tack on the mecahnism at the end and you can just skim it if it's TMI.

 

Nicotine is classified by the EPA as a class IV toxin (they range from I to VI, with VI being the highest toxicity, meaning it requires the least amount to do harm.) The toxic dose on nicotine for dogs and cats is about 20 to 100 mg, depending on the size and health of the animal. A cigarette may have about 2 mg, a nicotine patch about 15 mg. Not sure on nicotine gums, but some of the sprays can go up to 100 mg, the toxic level.

 

Signs of toxicity can include gastroenteritis (any GI signs, like vomiting, diarrhea, anorexia, nausea and drooling); muscular signs (weakness, tremors, incoordination, stilted gait, collapse and paralysis); central nervous system signs (excitement, disorientation, depression and seizures); respiratory signs (difficulaty breathing, rapid breathing, or respiratory failure, which means no breathing at all); and very high doses can cause rapid death, probably due to cardiac arrest or very severe hypotension (low blood pressure).

 

As you can see, there are some toxic signs that are complete opposites of each other (like rapid breathing vs. NO breathing, and excitement vs. depression). This is because nicotine binds to receptors that may be present in both the sympathetic and parasympathetic arms of the nervous system. The simple way to think of those two is that sympathetic is the flight-or-fight nerves, and parasympathetic is just the opposite. Nicotine binds to receptors on nerves and muscles that would usually be stimulated by a particular neurotransmitter, ACH. Normally the body would break down ACH after it tagged its target cell so that the target cell was stimulated only once. Part of the problem with nicotine is that it is not broken down like ACH would be, so it keeps stimulating its target cell incessantly, which the body generally considers Bad JuJu. This not only overstimulates the target cell, it prevents normal transmissions from going through since the receptors are occupied.

 

As far as treatement, it's mainy supportive and getting the nicotine out of the system before absorption, if possible (which means inducung vomiting if the timing is right and if the animal is stable enough, and/or activated charcoal). Other support is going to be in the agressive fluid therapy zone, plus or minus atropine OR diazepam to counter some of the effects (but that would depend on which effects were dominating, so you definitely need a doc for that part).

 

Okay - so that's my thumbnail sketch of nicotine poisoning. It's probably way TMI, but let me know if I didn't answer your question.

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Thanks, AK dog doc,

 

It's more information than my brain can absorb at this holiday time of the year, but I am very grateful to have all the information for reference and reassurance.

 

Oreo is doing well,bouncing off the walls a little bit, but we are glad he is back to normal.

 

Can't wait for agility classes to start back up in January, though. :rolleyes:

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and the story continues but the mystery may be solved.

 

last night Oreo got into the bathroom and harvested cat poop out of the litter box. :mad:

 

he's tried this before. Thus, I have the lid of the litter box duct taped shut, the opening (the litter box is like a small igloo) turned nearly to the wall and partially blocked with a chair and a box (it takes some agility for the cat to actually get in and out of it) but he managed to get in there and shut himself in the bathroom in the process.

 

so...another call to the er vet. i was going to just dose him with hydrogen peroxide but decided due to his recent troubles, i had better check first.

 

so...near midnight last night oreo and I are out in the backyard; me pouring 3 T. peroxide into his mouth; him seriously surprised and a little annoyed (i was seriously annoyed); both of us waiting for him to throw up. which he finally did. then yard patrol as i search and scoop for everything so that he can't try to enjoy it again later.

 

he's his usual perky self this morning. i am a little sleep deprived.

 

sigh...

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I'm glad Oreo's feeling well today!

 

I hope AK dog doc replies, I will be curious as to her thoughts since Riley often gets into Zilla's catbox as well, but has never had a bad reaction. Lucky for us, when we bought our house it came with a cat hole cut into the basement door, so we keep the catbox down there. Riley can only get to it if we leave the door open. :rolleyes:

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I'm glad Oreo's feeling well today!

 

I hope AK dog doc replies, I will be curious as to her thoughts since Riley often gets into Zilla's catbox as well, but has never had a bad reaction. Lucky for us, when we bought our house it came with a cat hole cut into the basement door, so we keep the catbox down there. Riley can only get to it if we leave the door open. :rolleyes:

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Just wanted to mention that after a round of severe flu-like symptoms (very similar to Oreo's) going through our old terriers and Nell, one of the old terriers (the oldest) got a lot of fluid on the lungs. Our vet is working on the assumption that the old guy is experiencing congestive heart/renal failure.

 

However the second oldest of the group (no spring chicken herself) has also shown some signs of wretched breath and raspy coughing that characterized the eldest when he was very sick. My husband (an immunologist) and I have wondered to ourselves if the virus that went through the group didn't factor in somehow.

 

My point in mentioning this is after reading of Red Dog's difficulties and now Oreo's is to suggest that kidney and heart/lung issues might be secondary symptoms to a virus that is going around.

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Ah, yes, the well-known cat box buffet. Deeply enticing to dogs of all descriptions, and (I have it from several clients) a small percentage of toddlers.

 

I'm sure that isn't helping any, and it *may* in fact be the reason for all of this, but I'd have to say it seems less likely than some other options. If you only knew the number of dogs who are annually reported to me for eating out of the cat box. It's really quite digusting how many there are, but rarely is there a problem, at least up here. I will say that there are any number of diseases that have fecal-oral transmission, and it IS possible that one of your cats was a carrier and passed something along to Oreo. And certainly I would discourage this behavior, and inducing vomiting is one way to decrease transmission/illness (and possibly also future interest in eating out of the catbox!) So your response seems fine, and not unwarranted, and may indeed have averted another bout of illness; but as to whether or not this was the original problem, I couldn't say. Might be, but might be not. Unfortunately the easiest way to find out would be to LET him eat out of the cat box and then see if he got sick again, but this is NOT a course I'd reccomend.

 

Margaret's point about secondary disease issues related to viral infections isn't a bad thought... there are approximately one kajillion viruses (no, really! I learned that number in Immuno class :rolleyes: ) and of course they are always mutating and other inconvenient things, the little buggers. So this means we may have a hard time tracking down a given culprit virus, either while it's making the dog ill or after the fact. There is no known viral etiology in HGE, but it's possible that it IS secondary to a virus, either as a symptom of a specific (unidentified) one, or as a syndrome in response to ANY viral infection. But, as noted earlier, we sometimes see that sort of dirrhea from bacterial overgrowth of the intestine, and cat box raids certainly COULD cause that - they don't usually, but they could. No question.

 

Wish I could be more definitive. Keeping Oreo out of the cat box is a great idea in general, but he's smart, and if he's highly motivated it may prove challenging (my dogs make sneak raids all the time and I'm not always able to get them to LEAVE IT before they scarf it down :mad: ).

 

Margaret, I'm sorry to hear about your dogs' recent illnesses. It seems especailly tough when it's the beloved oldsters who aren't as tough as they used to be.

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