Social Behaviour question/biting in play

[Sue in France]

I bred a litter of pups last winter which showed very little dominance-submission differentiation between the members of the litter. It was a happy bunch of pups which exhibited almost no fighting.

They left me at about 8 weeks old and one, a male, went to a home with 6 other dogs, all established as a pack. I did stress that the pup should be introduced slowly to them and evidently that was done over the past 8 weeks. Pup is now 4 months old.

The owner plays ball with them and this pup has been grabbing the other dogs and biting. The owner is afraid he will do the same with sheep.

Now before you tell me that pup shouldn't be playing ball, I have already suggested that this activity stop. But I am interested to know WHY he is biting the others. Is is because he sees the ball as "object to hunt" and wants to prevent the others from making the "kill"? ie he is exhibiting dominant behaviour? Or is it because, as Scott and Fuller premised, the working dogs (in their case Shelties) are spatially dominant...they recognise space as something to argue about? (as opposed to food for example).

Clearly the ball is exciting the pup and exacerbating the problem, but why do some breeds of dogs react to excitement in an aggressive way and others not? Are the reactions tied to breed genetics?

I personally feel this tendancy won't exhibit while working with sheep, which is a one-to-one activity, as long as the handler of the pup establishes the right control and relationship with him...what do you think?

Thanks in advance for any help here!!

 

Sue

[Northof49]

Sue, exactly what do you mean by the puppy "biting" the other dogs?

 

With some pack playing, overstimulation of one dog leads them to "play bite" the other dogs - sometimes frustration at not being able to do something will lead to another dog turning on the dog next to it, and sometimes this can have very serious consequences or just some fur pulling, or not even that.

 

My young puppy Cori likes to "bite" at my boy Tucker, however it is merely scruff hair grabbing. She is getting better at backing off and not doing this when I tell her "quit it", but she is not 100% yet.

 

When I tell Tucker it is his turn to get the ball, when I throw it and Tucker runs after the ball, Cori immediately runs with him and tries to grab him by the scruff. Also, when I am just throwing the ball to the dogs and it's Tucker's turn, she will grab at him as well. When running in the pasture, she would do a wide outrun and then cut in and try to grab him by the scruff - something that I worked out of her very quickly as I don't want this transfering to the sheep.

 

My dogs all know their "turn" and Cori will never try and get the ball from Tucker - she just wants to grag his scruff. He is too patient. She tried it once with Chynna - got discplined for it by the old girl and leaves her alone. Tucker ignores her - won't discipline her for it, so I have had to step up to the plate and control it.

 

However, if I say "Chynna's Turn" and throw the ball, and one of the other dogs think they don't have to honor that and they try to get the ball instead, she will get snarky and turn and "bite" at the other dog - no way she is going to miss her turn. She only does that with my dogs - if playing will others, she will always defer to them.

 

IF the puppy you are referring to is going beyond this, then what needs to be done is start the puppy out with learning to play with one dog, then two, etc. Sometimes this had to be done with the puppy on leash when it is not his turn, and sometimes a verbal can prevent the behaviour.

 

I have found that teaching each dog in my pack what "turns" are makes a big difference as to the pack dynamics when playing.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Hi Sue!

 

Regarding the relationship between work and behavior in a group of adult dogs, if we were talking about earthwork and terriers, I would say with confidence that there is none...with one qualification.

 

I had two wonderful working mother dogs who I had from puppyhood on. At different times I kept one of each mother's offspring by the same stud dog. Their social behavior bore many striking similarities to their respective mothers. Likewise, both pups' development as workers bore striking similarities to that of their mothers(one began very slowly but became extremely reliable, the other began quickly but at the time I sold her seemed less reliable).

 

Breeders who work their dogs are in a good position to make some judgements along these lines. To me it's the only "puppy test" that offers some reliablity with regards to predicting work behavior.

 

Originally posted by Northof49:

I have found that teaching each dog in my pack what "turns" are makes a big difference as to the pack dynamics when playing.

I strongly agree.

 

 

Edited in an effort to reduce the argumentative tone! MW

[2 Devils]

If the biting happens as the other dogs are running by, I would say the puppy is just getting excited by the movement and the Adult dogs have not put the puppy in its place.

 

My poodle tries this with my acd. He nips at her heels and when she has had enough, she snaps back and it ends there. My poodle will not do this with my bc/mix. He did it once, got bit lightly and that ended it.

 

The puppy could also just be trying to get the other dogs to play...

 

Then again, I could be wrong

[Northof49]

As for the relationship between work and behavior in a group of adult dogs, if we were talking about earthwork and terriers, I would say with confidence that there is none...with one qualification.

________________________________________________

 

Margaret, I agree in most instances that there is no correlation, but I thought better to err on the side of caution. Also, I have had Cori on sheep a few times (she just turned 7 months old) and she showed an indication of wanting to do the same thing - flank wide and then pick a sheep to grab onto. (Her grandmother always wanted to do this when she was a puppy, although not hard to discourage). I wont' be able to get her back onto the sheep for training until this fall. She has always been an extremely very confident little thing, even when first introduced to the sheep, never backed off, but made the rules, so I am finding it really hard to have to wait .

 

Although it maybe not exactly the same thing, I thought it was close enough to want to discourage her flanking Tucker, plus she could accidently take him down and seriously injure both of them.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Oh, I'm so sorry, Northo49. I skimmed your post and only read carefully the part about taking turns with the ball. I was in a rush this morning. I wasn't arguing with you at all and if I had read your post carefully (as certainly I should have), I would have not seemed so rudely emphatic in my view.

 

I guess I was having breeder "flashback," and imagining how I would feel in Sue's shoes if a puppy buyer had called me up having concluded that a pup would be grippy because he tried to wrassle with the older dogs during a disorganized play session.

 

Actually, I was very happy to read about your organized playtime. I did the same thing with my jack russells. They were so funny sitting as patiently as possible awaiting their turn.

[Eileen Stein]

Over the years I've had two or three dogs who would grab the other dogs while they were playing ball. In each case, the biter was a dog who didn't understand the game, never focused on the ball at all, but only reacted to the excitement of the dogs who WERE focused on the ball (i.e., the bitees). Also in each case, the biter showed no inclination to grip when working sheep. My dogs with gripping tendencies always happened to be the dogs who focused on the ball when playing, and paid little or no attention to what the other dogs were doing. So FWIW, I think the kind of pack play behavior Sue asks about is completely unrelated to behavior while working.

[Northof49]

Oh, I'm so sorry, Northo49. I skimmed your post and only read carefully the part about taking turns with the ball. I was in a rush this morning. I wasn't arguing with you at all and if I had read your post carefully (as certainly I should have), I would have not seemed so rudely emphatic in my view.

________________________________________________

 

Goodnes gracious Margaret :eek: - I neither took your post as argumentative or rude - simply another way at looking at things and informative, as I hope if you re-read my post back to you that I agreed with you. You always have good points to make and I always enjoy your posts.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Thanks for you kind words. I enjoy your posts too! I just want to be sure that I don't discourage posts from folks who work their dogs. Keeping livestock and working dogs is no mean feat. Even though I know it is rewarding, it has to be time-consuming and a lot of hard work, so I appreciate it when such folks post. I especially like to hear from folks like you who can't resist treating their working dogs like pets on occasion. Of that I am greatly guilty...!

[Sue in France]

Thanks all for your replies. They pretty much agree with each other, advice I received elsewhere and my own hunch.

I own both dam and sire and neither of them grip. I have had the sire from 3 months old and bought the dam at 5 years old, fully trained but if anything she is more on the sensitive, weaker side, though old and experienced enough now to deal with most things and shows no tendancy to grip...I did phone the previous owner who told me that she never did. my sire has before now jumped on recalcitrant arahter than grip them in a confined situation!!

I did feel that the nipping was probably due to excitement and juvenility. The situations of play and work do not usually correlate at all, one reason being that the work is a one-to-one (dog on sheep) activity with no competition for work.

I did counsel the owner to stop playing ball (had a feeling it was free play as opposed to "organised" play)and focus on giving the pup activities which boost his confidence, not potentially damage it. Therefore the pup will see the owner as a leader, not an adversary who puts problems in his way.

The owner has extensive knowledge of German Shepherds which she has bred for ma

She is bringing the pup here tomorrow, Friday. We are going to put him on the sheep...I am really looking forward to it!

Sue

[Sue in France]

sorry...posted early by mistake...meant to say she had bred German Shepherds for many years but I did warn her that BC's were different!!

 

Thanks again

[Brittany]

Well, I have a male beagle and a female yellow lab and a female border collie and sometimes, as we like to call it, he turns into amd dog. This is when he has a bone or is playing with a toy. He is just being protective. He never actually hurts the dogs just growls and it looks like he is biting them. He is just trying to show them who is boss. Since he didn't bite at the other puppy's he was with before in the litter this biting could be due to him wanting to show he is the alpha male. I don't think he will do this around the sheep. I have friends with this same problem. Their dogs have never hurt a sheep. He is just trying to get the alpha male position in the pack. No need to worry! :cool:

[Brittany]

*oops! :eek: I meant to say mad dog!