Handling dog agression

[Annieg722]

I rescued a beautiful 6yr old smooth coat boarder collie in Dec. Gracee has been a perfect companion with the exception of one thing. Twice now, she unexplainedly and out of the blue, went after a child (not my own). The child didn't do anything to her, but they were running. She nipped one but didn't get the other. I don't know what caused it or how to discipline the behavior. I am heartbroken at the thought that I might have to give her up. She has demonstrated protective traits in our yard but yesterday really scared me. Does anyone have any advice on how I can handle this other than always locking her up when children are around?

[muggs]

You may want to post this in the general section to get more responses. She may not be used to the way children play. Maybe she's never been around them from her previous home. Did she growl or just run after the child? Was she on leash at the time? I wouldn't take any chances with her. But if it is more of just an unknown for her, you could have your children or friend's to throw her treats while she is secured obviously. There are quite a few people on these boards that train and rescue bc's that could give you more advice, just post under the other section.

[bcnewe2]

Sounds like it might be misplaced herding instinct to me. I would also suggest posting this in the general area, as you'd get better response.

When you say nipped do you mean bite or nip? Where did the nip occur? On the back of the child?s leg or butt? It's probably the movement of the child that sets her off.

I'd set up the situation and correct her for "working" the children. i.e. a pop on her training collar and a gruff growl from you (or maybe a "no" if that's what you use) at the same time she tries to run after the child.

Good luck

Kristen

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Annieg722:

I rescued a beautiful 6yr old smooth coat boarder collie in Dec.... The child didn't do anything to her, but they were running. She nipped one but didn't get the other. I don't know what caused it or how to discipline the behavior....Does anyone have any advice on how I can handle this other than always locking her up when children are around?

It is going to be hard to "change" a 6 year old dog's behavior. I don't consider what she did "herding instinct" as much as just her "reaction" to running children, which was to "control/stop the activity" that she was uncomfortable with. I'd keep her on leash or confined when children are around, and work on desensitizing her to running children if you have a reason for her to be around them (with you there, holding the leash and in control of the situation). Otherwise, just do your darndest to avoid the situation.

[bcnewe2]

Laurie,

What do you call "control/stop the activity" that she was uncomfortable with if you don't call it herding instinct, however inappropriate herding children might be? That is an instinct "reaction" to me.

Not many dogs that are happily adjusted to most of life as annieg722 has said, will run after something that makes them scarred or uncomfortable unless it is right in their face, except a herding type dog.

As in fight or flight. Children running away are not in her face or scary. They need to be controlled in an untrained BC?s mind.

 

Yes I agree that a 6 year old might be a bit harder than a younger pup to change a behavior. How do you know she has never been in that situation before or that it's an ingrained habit, unless it's instinct? You still have to deal with the issue.

 

I'm not much for hiding the dog away from children unless this is a childless house and children are not going to be in the dog?s life ever. To me it would means lots of supervision and training to help her ?learn? what?s right. To teach Gracee to control her instincts. It takes consistency and time.

 

Annieg722,

Has she ever been around running children and not shown this behavior with you? What does she do if you go running away from her? Or someone else she knows.

 

Oh well, call it what you want. You still have to figure out what to do about it.

Sincerely,

Kristen

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by bcnewe2:

Laurie,

What do you call "control/stop the activity" that she was uncomfortable with if you don't call it herding instinct, however inappropriate herding children might be? That is aninstinct "reaction" to me.

Kristen

Yep - It's instinct, but I call it "prey drive", not "misplace herding behavior"... Any dog with teeth and legs can chase and nip. I've seen labs, poodles, dachshunds, italian greyhounds, terriers do it...either out of dominance or fear, without a shred of herding instinct in their DNA. Now if Gracee was "corralling" to hold or or fetch the children, I'd call that herding, but it does not have to involve teeth. My 10 year old BC loves children standing still and inside the house, but if they are outside - screaming, running, jumping on a trampoline, she will try to hold them together and keep them grouped and still...she gets very concerned, but does not nip at them.

Actually, from the original post I was surmising that Gracee was trying to "control" because she is a BC, but maybe she IS just scared and uncomfortable. My younger dogs who did not grow up around children do not trust them, and are nervous around them if they get too rowdy. I just don't put my dogs in that situation very often. Annie also mentioned that Gracee was "protective" in the yard as well..

I also surmised that Annie does not have her own children, but was someplace where there were children. Guess Annie will have to answer on that one...

 

Annie - I did not mean for my answer to sound abrupt. I understand that you have a real problem, and maybe this is connected to why she was in the shelter in the first place. I agree that consistency and training MAY fix the issue, but it will take lots of time and patience. I would keep her on leash and away from running children in the meantime unless you are fond of lawsuits.

Laurie

[bcnewe2]

We defiantly agree on keeping Gracee on a leash until these issues are worked out. If that doesn?t happen then maybe the leash will be the "fix".

Yes Laurie you are right that other dog breeds display these same tendencies. Given that Gracee is a BC I tend to go with the herding instinct rather than prey drive.

I have a bc pup that I'm starting on sheep. It looks like prey drive working in her brain right now too. Charging the sheep and scattering them. With guidance and help from me she will learn what to do with that drive. I happen to know my pup?s background so I know it's her learning curve on controlling or using her herding instincts.

Basically they are in part, the same thing, Instinct. Without seeing the dog actually doing the behavior we can surmise or guess all we want. What Annie needs is direction to help control the behavior. Very hard to say or teach over the internet. A leash is a great start.

 

Keep working on it Annie and see if you can find someone in your area with more experience than you and ask them for help. A stock dog person would in my mind be better help than an ob. trainer or a behaviorist. Some ob people and behaviorists don't know what to do with instincts that are that strong.

edited to add:

Uh-O, I didn't mean to "dis" obedience trainers or behaviorists. Some know as much or more that stock dog trainers. Especially those with herding dogs themselves. Some don't. No insult to Laurie intended.

 

Either way, good luck and keep us posted.

Laurie, it's always nice to have a discussion without getting into who's right and who's wrong. You put different words to basically the same thing. It?s amazing to me how many times in training my working dogs that someone or lots of someones will tell me something and then one day someone says it a bit different and bing?my light bulb comes on. Thanks for your quick responses.

Kristen

[laurie etc]

Kristen - no problem - i did not take your comment personally. In fact, I agree. Your average "Joe Petsmart" dog trainer probably doesn't deal with "herding mentality" dogs enough to be that useful in this situation.

Now, Annie, are you still there???

[SoloRiver]

Frankly, I think someone qualified needs to see this behavior in person before anyone can diagnose the cause. Many dogs are uncomfortable around children, so it may not have anything to do with motion sensitivity or "herding." Children often seem unpredictable to dogs, and for a dog who is anxious they may appear to be a threat, even if we don't think they should.

 

The obvious step to take would be to not have the dog loose around children.

[Annieg722]

Thanks everyone for your replys....just a little more info about Gracee and her regular surroundings. I have two boys 9 and 13 and she has NEVER shown the behavior with them. The recent situation was with someone who just met her for the first time. She is also around neighborhood kids aprox the same age all the time.

 

When I adopted her I was told she bit a small child and that she should not be placed in a home with small children. The story I got was she was owned by a single women who got married and had children. So she may not have been exposed to children regularly and early in her life. If small children are around I do confine her to a bedroom. She is definitely nervous around small kids my guess is because of their unpredictability.

 

As far as chasing, she does not chase my kids or me when running, bike etc. I take her running every day off the leash and all she chases are squirrels, deer and rabbits.

 

If anyone can recommend a "stock? trainer" - sorry not familiar with some of your lingo - I'd appreciate it. I live in central New Jersey. I work full time but I am willing to make the committment necessary to training. I love this dog.

 

Thanks,

 

Annie

[Atlanta Smitty]

I think the Herding instinct is probably very strong in them. When I run with my dog now sometimes he'll nip at me.

 

My dog before we got a border collie was a Minature Shelty. He loved people and animals. It would play with me by running and biting at my Bicycle tire or the Tire of my Riding Lawnmower. He did that up until the day he died.

 

I'll never forget one day we had him at my grandpa's place. It has 20acres with a small garden and at the time had 2 black cows in a pasture. I was up at his shed near the field and shadow was with me. Well out of the blue and unprovoked by me or the cows it just took off like a bat out of hell and started going crazy and trying to herd those cows. Scared the hell out of me and the cows. But he did it and just as fast as he went he quit and came back. And he was a house dog and not really trained either. Or no training which would relate to herding. He's even been around those cows before. But this time I guess he couldn't contain himself.

 

My BC is great around kids and dogs. I took him to a park the other day. Well on the way back to my truck I passed a playground and all the kids saw the "Puppy" and their natural instinct was "I have to touch it". Next thing you know I was surrounded by atleast 7-10kids,toddlers, babies and a few adults. Including 1 dog. I squatted down and grabbed hold of his harness not sure of what he would do. I didn't think he would do anything but didn't want to take the chance. But they all petted him and he didn't bat an eye. I was glad to see that. I hope he remains that way too.

 

What about neutering? Will that cut back on a BCs agressive tendencies?