Help Border Collie vs German Shepherd fighting

[rubenunez]

Hello there! I’m having some serious troubles with my border collie and I’ll really appreciate your help with this situation.

 

I have two bitches, an 18 months old German shepherd and a 12 months old border collie. They aren’t aggressive whatsoever, they get along pretty good with people and other dogs. However, the BC is kind of territorial, since her was a little puppy she growls and shows her teeth every time the GSD “invades” her space. When she is resting below a chair or bench (at home or at the dog park), she can’t be bothered by ANY dog. Otherwise, she will growl, bark and show her teeth. Fortunately, other dogs get the message and leave her alone. I considered this as normal and acceptable.

 

However, the BC has become a bully. Believe it or not, the BC tries to herd the GSD. The BC uses her hypnotizing eyes to control the GSD. Sometimes the BC doesn’t let the GSD move at all, even if I call her (the GSD), the BC will step in front of her and she will paralyze her with her eyes. Even though the GSD is very noble and permissive, her patience has a limit, and we all know what happens when you upset a big dog. There have been around 4 fights in the last month, in the last two, the BC ended bleeding through her mouth and with a couple of small scars in her head.

 

The fights are usually triggered by the BC bullying (herding), but today’s fight was triggered by jealousy. The BC was laid down in my feet and I had the bad idea of petting the GSD. That was HORRIBLE! I’ve never seen the GSD so mad before. I got really scared, because I realized how much damage could a GSD cause and how easily she can beat the BC ass down.

 

After I broke up the fight and isolated both of them for 10 minutes, I put them back together. The GSD left the fight behind, but the BC still wanted to “fight”. She was still growling, it took me like 4 minutes of corrections to make her stop and be kind again. Of course, I’m very worried for the BC. She can get really hurt, I don’t even want to think what would have happened if I couldn’t have break up the fight. How can I correct this kind of behavior? The herding usually happens when I’m not around, that’s my greatest fear.

 

Thank you in advance!

[Blackdawgs]

I am aware of one person whose Border Collie was killed in a Border Collie vs German shepherd altercation. The dogs had been having issues for awhile. Regardless who is at fault, the smaller dog will always lose. I think that you will have to keep the dogs seperated or rehome one of the dogs.

[simba]

Separate them when you're not there, at least. I don't know your situation, always easier said than done, but have a look and see if you can do it.

[Liz P]

I don't say this often, but I think I would be finding a new home for one of those dogs ASAP. In the mean time, keep them completely separate. If you want to keep both of them, consult a veterinary behaviorist (and keep them apart until that time).

 

There are some things you need to do to work with them (they are both at fault in different ways), but bitch fights like that can easily turn fatal and often just get worse as they get more mature.

[Tommy Coyote]

Just my two cents. Bitch on bitch agression only gets worse. You have to keep the dogs separate or eventually one will kill theother one.

[Maralynn]

I think there might have been a solution when this sort of thing was just starting out. But with the behavior ingrained as it sounds then I agree that strict separation or rehoming one of the dogs would be the best option.

[rubenunez]

Wow! Thank you all for your comments, now I'm worried you all agreed in rehome one of the dogs. Let me give you more details.

 

They aren't aggressive on regular basis. We play everyday and they get along pretty good. The GSD sometimes eats the BC's food and nothing bad happens. The BC always take the toys away from the GSD mouth and nothing happens. They play tug, they play like puppies (like if they were fighting), they take naps really close, almost cuddling,etc.

 

My wife noticed that the fights caused by herding occur when the GSD is very excited. For instance, when they know that kids are coming, the GSD gets over excited and that bothers the BC, and there is when the GSD fights back. Another situation is when a racoon breaks into the backyard and the GSD goes crazy and starts chasing him. If the GSD is not excited, she can "tolerate" the herding thing. Additionally, when the GSD is excited, the herding comes with nipping and barking from the BC. I guess that's why the GSD reacts.

 

As we all know, BC are extremely smart. . I'll take your advice of separate them while we aren't at home. However, I'll try to correct that behavior and I'm confident Kira (BC) will learn. I'll try everything before considering rehome one of them.

 

Any other suggestion given this new information? I appreciate all your inputs.

[Maralynn]

Do not allow the BC to "herd" the GSD at all. Stop her, correct her, give her something else to do. Concurrently, teach the GSD how to be calm. If you *know* they both get worked up she the kids come home, crate them 10 min prior to the kids arrival and don't let them out until the homecoming excitement has settled.

 

Don't allow resource guarding. At the first sign of it send them both to crates.

 

Reward calm behavior.

 

Add more structure, exercise and training to their routine.

 

Find a local behaviorist to work with.

[GentleLake]

The problem is that even if they get along 99% of the time, can you absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt be certain that you can predict and control that 1% of the time when things get out of hand?

 

Because that's when one of the dogs is going to get killed.

 

There's a good reason for the saying that management always fails.

 

I agree with the others in saying one of the dogs should be rehomed. But if you can't accept that option, then at the very least consult a good veterinary behaviorist. Not just a trainer, a board certified veterinarian who specializes in animal behavior.

 

Best wishes. I know this can't be easy for you to deal with or to hear the opinions you're getting. But it will be even harder to bear the consequences if the worst happens, as it's likely to do.

[rubenunez]

Don't get me wrong, I really value your input guys. However, I just cannot go back home this afternoon with the solution of rehoming one of the dogs. I need to gather all feasible suggestions and ideas before making a decision like that.

[GentleLake]

Then make an appointment with a board certified veterinary behaviorist and see if there is a solution.

[Tommy Coyote]

I had 2 bitches that fought like that. I just kept them separate. I did that for 4 or 5 years. It's a pain but you can do it. Both dogs were crate trained and one was out and one was up all the time. Or one was outside in the back yard and one was loose in the house.

 

My dogs started out slow - just a tussle here and there. But it got worse as time went on. Mollie always started it but Ellie was a lot younger and a lot bigger and she would have killed Molly. It got that bad.

 

So I just kept them separated.

 

A German Shepherd will kill a border collie. They are too much bigger and too much stronger. It doesn't matter who starts it.

[Cass C]

There was someone on these boards who said something I think applies here that it's not herding it's being a jerk.

 

Also keep in mind some border collies will not play nice with other breeds of dogs. Yours could very well be one of them. My b&w border collie will not play with any dog that is not at least mostly border collie in play style. My mom has 2 German Shepards and Lily refuses to even acknowledge them. If they try to play with her she growls and snaps at them, so we trained them to ignore her and leave her alone. They are well trained and have never even tried to snap back, or else we would have never attempted to get them together. That way no one gets hurt. They also don't live together as ingnoring eachother is not a good solution for dogs forced to live together. My mom's male GSD has bitten my gold bc once over a bone they both wanted, but that was an easy fix. They just don't get chews without being separated. The gold BC is still the German Shepard's best friend and they have had no altercations since.

 

Your best option is to A) rehome one of the dogs or B ) see a certified trainer. In a situation like this that is life or death you need someone who can see the dogs interact and figure out what the trigger is. In the meantime separate the dogs at all times, and if they must be together keep your BC on a leash and do not allow ANY staring or 'herding'.

[stockdogranch]

As others have said, bitches who fight like this will only get worse. You will absolutely have to keep them separate ALL THE TIME. Even though they may appear to get along most of the time, you never know when something will happen and one, most likely the GSD, as she is bigger, will kill the other. So, if you can't/won't rehome one, then you must manage it ALWAYS. Many of us have been in this situation, and we don't say to rehome one lightly,

A

[Tommy Coyote]

One thing I just remembered. When my two bitches fought they didn't make any noise at all. Usually dog fights are really loud. These two would just go for each other's throats and hang on. No sound.

[rubenunez]

Hi guys,

 

Another fight just happened. We were playing (GSD, BC and me). I was giving affection to the GSD, and I ordered the BC to stay away. She was calm, in a submissive position. However, the GSD was the bully this time. I saw the GSD show her teeth for no reason while I was petting her. The BC went crazy after this. I had to put myself in the middle, it was really hard to break up the fight. I don't know how they didn't bite me.

 

The GSD never cooled down. We separated them and the GSD kept growling and barking through the gate. I have done some research, and apparently all this nightmare is due to the fact that the BC had her first cycle last month. They are following their instincts, and there is not coexistence possible. Apparently, male dogs fight until one acknowledge the other as the leader. Bitches fight to death. We should have nurtured them before their first cycle.

 

I've read about so many cases, one even consulted one of the best behaviorist in Texas and they gave up after two (super expensive) sessions. They ended up rehoming one of them.

 

It's very hard to even think which one should we rehome. I regret not doing a good research before getting a second bitch. Now, we all have to pay the price of my ignorance. This is devastating.

[rubenunez]

Oops, I meant neutered.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm very sorry you're in this situation. It must be ever so heartbreaking. However, in light of your most recent post, I do think you need to do some deep thinking and soul searching. Bitch-on-bitch fights like this are very liable to escalate as the dogs mature, and the very nature of a GSD won't allow her to back off or back down. For that matter, BC bitches can be awfully waspy when defending their own attitudes.

It only takes an instant for a tragedy to happen. And it does happen. Think hard and think well. This is about the safety and well being of both your girls. I do wish you luck. I'm so very sorry.

~ Gloria

[Liz P]

It may be best to offer both up for adoption and decide who stays based on which one finds a perfect home first.

 

Contact your local Border Collie and German Shepherd rescues for help.

 

You would be looking for an only dog situation or a home with neutral male dogs who don't mind having an alpha bitch in charge. It's also important that the potential new owner understands dog behavior and how serious of a problem these dogs had. Either one might potentially want to start fights with other female dogs in the future, so they should not be going to dog parks or allowed off leash around other dogs.

[borasaurus]

This is so sad to read. Someone I know had the same thing happen with his two boxer bitches and I think he ended up having to rehome one of them (I lost touch with him, so I don't know for sure). It started out seemingly innocuous, but then each scuffle got worse and worse until even he was getting huge gashes from trying to break them up. Please be careful, not just for your dogs' safety, but yours as well.

[teresaserrano]

I've had females all my life, at a time 3 together and not a problem with them. but older one of those and the one i had before Tess started fighting once the pup entered adolescence. Younger was 20 kg, older 12 kg, so there was a bit of a size diference. It wasn't dificult to curb as I instituted martial law (very strict rules, no harassing one another ever) AND, most important, none of them was out to kill the other. Younger bigger dog would usually just put herself on top of the other and wait it out till older dog cooled of. The rare ocasion there was some injury it was just a scratch.Your situation seems much more dangerous, and bitches can be... bitches to one another. You're the one who knows what's happening for real, we can't see it, but be very carefull, it can easily be a situation that requires rehoming.

[stockdogranch]

With a house full of bitches for many years, I have been through this more than once. The first time, I didn't stop it early on, and ended up selling the younger of the two (she was a great working dog) when she was almost 3 (the older one was always my main working dog). A number of years later, I had a new pup (granddaughter of the older one) who at 8-10 weeks of age started to challenge the older girl. I gave them both a come-to-Jesus meeting, and all was well for a couple of years. Fast forward to the younger one at 3 years old, and grandma at 13. The younger one was good up to this point, but with grandma now much less in charge, she started to beat up on grandma (who, despite her age, will not back down). So now I have to keep them apart when I am not home to supervise. When I am home, they are fine, as grandma (now 14) just sleeps most of the time. But if I am out of the house for any length of time, the younger one is locked in a room.

A

[rubenunez]

Hi guys, thank you for your comments.

 

I noticed something today. We have kept them separated and nothing have happened. We went to the dog park yesterday. We kept them separated there as well. They smelled each other for a moment and nothing happened between them or with any other dog. However, we went to the dog part again this morning, and a lot of dogs tried to hump the BC. We had to leave the dog park.

 

So, the BC had her first cycle a months ago, and she stopped bleeding like 10 days ago. I thought her cycle was already over but apparently not. The GSD had her second cycle right after the BC had hers. She stopped bleeding 10 days ago as well. Is it possible that all this fighting is due to their hormones rush?

 

Unfortunately, keep them separated has been very sad. The BC is in panic, she's being miserable. Everytime she enter to a room we can tell how scared she is of facing the GSD.

[Blackdawgs]

Why are these dogs still intact and why are you bringing these incredibly stressed dogs to a dog park?

[rubenunez]

What do you mean by why are they intact? They release a lot of stress at the dog park, that's the only chance we have to socialize them with other dogs. I'm telling you, the border collie is really scared at home, at the dog park she was extremely happy and relaxed.