Broke the Dog + Training Tips

[moosikins]

We have a STAR collar for Callie (6 mo.) for "heel"/loose leash walking that works like a charm - after the first ten minutes of having it and only a few very gentle corrections, she figured it out and now walks alongside us like an angel. She plops right down on her rump when we stop walking and immediately joins us at our side when we continue. I know the collar is unpopular but it was a necessity to help with the walking...

 

With that in mind, we tried using it for the other commands (sit, down, etc.) during puppy class because she was having such a hard time listening/focusing on us last night. It had a completely unexpected reaction given her success with the collar and walking. Normally she's great with commands, but something was really distracting at the pet store last night, so we slipped the collar on. When we corrected her (always as gently as possible), she completely "broke".

 

She looked like I had kicked her - sad eyes, scared/tense posture, hidden tail. It was horrible...I immediately scooped her up and hugged her close until she relaxed in my arms. Why would she do so great with the collar for walking and be so upset with being corrected with it for a different command? I know Border Collies are sensitive, but this seems like a pretty extreme reaction, especially since she's familiar with the collar and has received corrections before. The commands were nothing new - same thing we always do in puppy class and she knows them all well so she shouldn't have been confused about what was expected.

 

There doesn't seem to be any lasting damage - she did fine with the collar later in the class for walking and went back to her normal, cheerful (but still distracted) self after the long hug.

 

What are your thoughts? How do you train a stubborn dog?

 

P.S. - We're really careful with the STAR collar. We do know it has the potential to hurt her so we never allow anyone else in the family to use it and we are always careful to control our frustration so the corrections are always gentle. We love our baby dog dearly.

[Maralynn]

She's probably distracted because she's stressed and the added correction wwas just too much. While I have no issues using something like a prong collar (I'm assuming that the star collar is similar?) as a training aid for dedicated pullers, you do need to be aware of the reason for the pulling in the first place. I would not use it for a dog that was at all stressed. In that situation I would look to build confidence with fun, simple activites which would lead to better attention and focus.

[CptJack]

What Maralynn said. The other thing I'd like to add is you really, really, need to be sure she not only knows what you are asking of her, but is paying enough attention to have HEARD the command you're asking her to perform. If she is super distracted or stressed, then she isn't focusing enough to understand why she was corrected in the first place.

It's not about the physical strength of the correction in this case (ie: no matter how gentle you make it) because for her it's coming out of nowhere. Unless the dog is capable of focusing on and engaging with you enough to learn, that collar is as ineffective as treats would be in the same circumstance. She's not capable of learning in that state, and you have to get her focus back on you by some other method before you even think about correcting her for blowing off a command.

 

It can't be used to make her pay attention to you in the first place, and that sounds like what you were trying to use it for. It won't work if she's overaroused, overstimulated, and overthreshold. So, yeah. Work on attention and confidence, first.

 

(Full disclosure : I own an actual prong and use it on my big dog. I'm not opposed, you just have to know what the limits are. Until the dog is CAPABLE of paying attention to you in a given environment, you can't correct for lack of attention. It just scares the dog - even the hardest dog and the gentlest correction- and adds to the problem.)

[CptJack]

And yes, a star collar is a pinch collar. Looks different, and to some people less scary because the spikey bits aren't as long, but it works the same way.

[GentleLake]

Was this the first time you'd asked her for that behavior at the pet store? If so, then she probably didn't know what you were asking for.

 

Dogs are usually situational learners. IOW, they learn things in relation to the situation -- or the location -- in which they were taught. You have to generalize the cues to different locations and situations so they understand them to mean you want the behavior all the time when you offer the cue.

 

So, quite possibly, what happened is that you expected her (at 6 months old, no less) to understand something you haven't taught her yet in a situation with lots of new distractions and then punished her for what, in her mind, was doing nothing bad at all.

 

Punishment based training when you don't know how to use it properly can have some very undesirable results, as I hope you're learning.

[Maralynn]

Yes^^^ that too! Remember to only add in one new variable at a time to training or greatly reduce your expectations. When we go to training classes or out and about to new areas then we're adding lots of new variables (lots of new distractions!) in the beginning and need to go back to the very basics to get success. ETA: Gentle Lake posted while I was so I was originally refering to Capt Jack. But I do agree with both.

[Sekah]

Stress is cumulative, and a stressed animal does not learn or focus well. Pet stores and training classes can be very stressful places for a dog. Corrections themselves are innately at least moderately stressful, and poorly timed or inappropriate ones are even more so. She was likely physically unable to concentrate at that point in time so all the jerking in the world is not going to help -- it will serve to intensify the situation. She wasn't being stubborn. She was over threshold.

 

If you find yourself in this position again, increase distance, redirect with food as opposed to collar jerks and try to be more mindful of your environment. Try not to use the collar as a crutch. Try to approach training using a variety of reinforcement (food, environmental, play, etc.) and go at the pace your dog sets. Good luck!

[Liz P]

Is this the collar you have? A collar like this is not appropriate for a very young pup just learning commands.

 

Without meaning to insult your experience with dogs, I wonder if you misinterpreted what she was doing? Rather than being distracted, she might have been stressed and doing something called "avoidance behaviors."

 

Are you training in a little tiny ring in the pet store at classes? For good dog training you need a large area. This allows you to back away from stimuli to reduce stress and increase focus. A tiny ring like I've seen in many of those pet store classes does not allow for this. Generally for distracted pups, I walk away from the distraction until I get their attention again and slowly make my way closer, asking for obedience to see just how close I can get to balance the focus needed to learn and obey with a lesson on working in the face of distractions.

[CptJack]

Ultimately, I think the simplest and gentlest way I can say this is:

Anything that can be called a correction is not useful for teaching the dog to do anything (when you use corrections you aren't ever teaching your dog what TO do, but what not to do), and any correction has to be fair. That means the dog KNOWS what you are asking and is able (mentally, physically, and yeah emotionally) capable of doing it.

 

The situation with teaching her to walk nicely worked for her because of lack of stress, distraction, and very clear and simple criteria. She also knows what is expected of her in training class.

 

None of that applies from the dog's point of view in a petstore.

And I have to agree that a correction collar on a six month old at all is pretty unfair. There are limits to what she's had time to learn, and learn about. There are also some pretty intense limits on what coping skills they've mastered. I don't want to come off like I'm attacking you, because I'm not.

 

Just... trying to give you a way to think about how to apply corrections if you go forward with it and for me the criteria of that is: Does the dog know what I am asking it to do (and in this setting)? Am I sure? Is the dog mentally/emotionally with me enough for it to realize what is going on and respond the way I want? Is there overstimulation, stress, or fear at play? Is what I am correcting for *the right thing*? Is what I am going to correct for something that is worth it? Is my timing going to be good enough to get the RIGHT message across to the dog? Am I sure of that?

 

I'm pretty sparing when it comes to corrections, though and in addition to all that my question is: Is this a safety hazard to people, the dog itself, or other people? and "does this need to be handled quickly because of aforementioned safety issue, or can I afford to go slower and try training alternate/incompatible behaviors, first?"

 

And I think I'm done babbling now.

[simba]

Dogs can have funny but strong ideas about what is 'fair' and 'unfair'. It's a little like the story about the red setter who won't retrieve a thing except for the one day the owner can't actually reach the bird themselves- then it's acceptable to bring it back, because there's a real need.

 

I am not the best trainer, but sometimes I find a good brisk walk with a lot of sniffing and then some focused walking at the end can help my dog keep focus- it's had a bit of time to look about itself and take the edge off the energy.

 

She's not necessarily stubborn, more just being a bit of a dope. Imagine going to school as an older child or younger teenager- sometimes with the best will in the world you just cannot focus. This would especially be true if your classes were somewhere as exciting as a pet shop can be for dogs. With maturity and being a bit more used to that environment that will likely improve.

 

Somewhat related question: how do I wean myself off corrections? I find myself using corrections rather than redirecting for simple things like the younger dog bothering the older dog to play, even though redirection seems to work better. Because 'BAD DOG stop being a twat' is easier (and seems more 'just') than 'hey puppy, now you get attention even though you were being a brat'.

 

Same goes for when the dog blows me off during a recall or misbehaves in public- I find I am using a higher level of correction than what is probably necessary either to show her that the recall is Serious Business or because in public you want to look like you are doing something. I know it's not right, and it's not even more effective, but I forget in that particular moment, emotion gets in the way. How do I remember this during the heat of the moment rather than afterwards? Hope I'm not hijacking the thread Moosikins, I will start a new one if anyone asks me to do so instead.

[CptJack]

I think you have to find something to substitute in and replace it - and then make it a habit.

For me that would be working out a specific plan of reaction that was simple enough to work, practice it at home, expect to mess up and forget sometimes and to keep plugging away at it in various ways. What that plan ends up being is going to depend on your dog, your behavior, and what your dog knows - and what you know and are comfortable with. Thinking of it as creating a situation where you can reward the dog (even if it's just with a good girl!) in the aftermath of bratty behavior I find works pretty well. Also thinking of what I want the dog TO be doing instead of not doing. Don't want the dog pestering the other dog, want it to entertain itself. Don't want the dog to chew the couch, want it to chew a bone. Don't want the dog haring off, want it to come back to me.

 

Ie: the dog is pestering the other dog I ask the dog for some super simple behavior like a nose touch to my hand that I KNOW they will perform, tell them they're good for that and give them a toy so they can amuse themselves. Dog is chewing something it shouldn't be, I ask for a drop it or sit or something, take it away and hand them what's theirs. They're blowing off a recall, I um. Hide, actually and demand they find me because that works with my dogs, but then tell them "YAY GOOD" and leash them up and carry on with forced happiness until I get over it.

For me, though, what really broke the habit was having a dog who couldn't handle corrections at ALL. Not even No Reward Markers - this dog was (and is) stupid soft. So I'd get some pretty strong negative feedback from the dog and had to rework how I handled things to avoid destroying the dog. Really, really taught me to control my tone and body language, too, because holy crap that dog's soft.

 

Really made me reassess how, when, and why I corrected dogs.

[moosikins]

@ Liz P - That's exactly what we have. (Edit: We only use it for walking about 30% of the time, with the exception of yesterday's failed attempt at training, and we don't have to correct her with it anymore. The trainer suggested it as a last resort because she simply refused to walk even remotely nicely and choked herself. Now we use it at the puppy classes to reiterate good walking habits. She walks nicely enough when we're just outside without it now).

 

A few other responses...

 

She's used to the pet store because this is Puppy II, so we're on week 3 of 6, after already completing 6 weeks of Puppy I. Same trainer, same location. She's very well acquainted with the store and the staff. We do work in a small circle for some of the time (completely off leash) and then use the rest of the store for the majority of class. Sit/Stay/Come in the aisles, loose leash walking around and saying hi to people and the small animals, etc. She's normally really great in class - she sits, stays, pays attention, comes running when called, and ignores other animals unless we encourage her to go meet them (she did meet a ferret nose-to-nose last night, which seemed to calm her down for a few minutes).

 

Thank you all for the advice! I was raised with multiple dogs and I have had a puppy before, but I didn't do that much with him because I was a kid too. Callie is the first puppy I've had in my own house and my husband has never had dogs. We're trying to improve our training behaviors while we teach her commands. She's a very good girl and we're so upset that we freaked her out.

 

We're still not sure what was causing her to be so distracted yesterday, but we'll need to figure out a way to get her attention diverted next time instead of correcting, like most of you suggested.

 

We don't usually do corrections at all. This was the first time we tried the collar for anything other than walking, and she hasn't needed a correction since that first time wearing the collar. We slip it on and we have an instantly angelic walker. Usually she just gets to hear us say commands a million times before she gets her reward (treat, praise, petting, etc.) I don't like to jerk her around by the leash and there's no point at shouting at a dog. The most correction she gets outside of that collar is being pushed away and ignored when she nips.

 

@Simba - I'd be interested in some of the more experience folks answering that as well...How do you prevent/stop yourself from going to corrections instead of redirection and how do you teach yourself to respond to the dog consistently. I agree, it's tough in public...Although I'm almost the opposite where I won't scold her or redirect. I just scoop her up in my arms and then the problem is gone - but then I'm not teaching my pup anything useful. Just taking her away from a situation she'll find herself in again!

[moosikins]

@CptJack - You're probably very correct...She knows those commands but wasn't listening. It makes sense that the correction freaked her out if she didn't realize why.

 

I was also thinking about it, and it's probably easier for a dog to understand when it DID do something right or wrong, versus understanding when it DIDN'T do something. Cause and effect relationship rather than logical reasoning to figure out what the owner wanted done that didn't happen...

[CptJack]

In my experience the public thing is usually related to embarrassment - and not wanting people to think your dog is awful. I could be wrong but that's what usually sets me off.

 

A while in dog classes and seminars and workshops and events and I've come to realize that even the most well behaved dog can act like a freaking buffoon sometimes and most people who know dogs will understand that. It's easy to want to end the situation and behavior RIGHT NOW to get the attention off you, but I find rolling my eyes and making a remark to the effect of 'Dogs, man.' Or even making a joking remark 'directed at' the dog - to be heard by people- actually helps me. "Having a rough day, spazzy pants?" or whatever.

 

No matter what your dog is doing, people have seen it, heard it, and if they've had very many dogs experienced it.

 

There was a video of a dog at Crufts taking a dump on the agility course. For me, that just says it all.

 

 

 

@CptJack - You're probably very correct...She knows those commands but wasn't listening. It makes sense that the correction freaked her out if she didn't realize why.

 

I was also thinking about it, and it's probably easier for a dog to understand when it DID do something right or wrong, versus understanding when it DIDN'T do something. Cause and effect relationship rather than logical reasoning to figure out what the owner wanted done that didn't happen...

 

YEP. Very, very good insight, there. Kind of what I meant by the correction not teaching the dog to DO anything. Corrections can be good for making the dog NOT do something, but not so much the reverse. You put it a lot better, though.

[moosikins]

*sigh* I wish she could just tell us what's in her mind...Although she could be as stupid as her stuffed animals and I'd still love my baby dog.

[Maralynn]

How do you train instead of correct? By figuring out what you want and facilitating it. When we correct, we know what we don't want. When we train, we're working on what we actually want.

 

"don't do that - or that or that or that" has got to be frustrating to a young dog. Instead, give them something to channel their energy and brain power into.

 

What I try to do is back off, calm my dog down and give them some easy, well known commands.

 

If they're being a pest at home, take the collar calmly, get them to sit or down, stroke them and talk calmly then give them a bone to chew. If the start being a pest again (and I know they've had sufficient exercise) then they go to the crate or on a leash.

 

If we're out and about, take them back to wherever they can be calm and focus. Calm focus is VERY GOOD. We work on it a lot and it gets highly rewarded.

 

While my youngster has gotten corrections, anything strong has been for behavior that is not acceptable. Like chasing the cat. Or chomping down on my foot when I'm not looking. Otherwise if he's doing something that I don't want him to do, I generally just tell him what I want and make sure he complies. When he started carrying shoes around (at 11 w/o) instead of telling him "no"(and chasing him around to get the shoe - woo-hoo, what fun!) I taught him to "bring". Now if he picks up something that I don't want him to have, I just have him bring it to me. It's been really effective for him at least.

[GentleLake]

It's possible that just being in the sales area of the pet store was enough difference for her that she didn't understand the cue there. It wouldn't be the first time that a dog was that location specific.

 

Honestly, I think you're expecting an awful lot from a 6 month old puppy.

 

And I'm with Liz. I'd never consider a collar of that type (or any other prong type collar) on a puppy that young.

 

Did you try any other kind of training harness or head collar before jumping into anything quite so punitive? There are lots of other things to try before going to any kind of pinch collar.

 

Even those other kinds of training aids wouldn't be my first option for a pup that young. I'd be looking for a good positive reinforcement trainer before I'd be going to a box store trained (usually very brief training at that) trainer first, someone who's able to give you better advice than to use a pinch collar on a puppy.

 

I think you should heed the reaction your pup had as a warning and look for better training methods and expectations for you pup to begin with.

[juliepoudrier]

Just a thought re: newly distracted. Pups can come in season (assuming she's not spayed yet?) as early as 6 months old. If the situation was essentially what she has already experienced, then consider the possibilty of adolescent hormones.

 

That said, I agree with what the others have said here. I do use corrections in training, but wouldn't use that collar on a pup, or if I absolutely (though there are generally no absolutes in training) had to for a puller (assuming you exhausted all alternatives) I still would NOT use it to correct for other behaviors.

 

J.

[ourwully]

It is with some reluctance that I am writing this because I am as far from an expert as you can get. When Juno was 6 months old she walked fine at puppy class but not so well outside on the sidewalk. Now at just over a year she heels well but her loose leash walking still isn't the best. She doesn't pull much any more but she does put tension on the leash quite frequently. The thing is she is getting better every day. On our last walk she was almost perfect but the next one might be different. I have this feeling that if I continue being patient and just stopping when she puts tension on the leash that this will be enough eventually. Maybe I'm wrong but I have a very happy dog and every day seems to be better for me. When she was 6 months I thought things would never get better but now her attention span and focus seems to be improving daily. I guess what I am saying is be patient if you can stand it.

Bill[

[Hooper]

You've gotten a lot of good information about corrections, and when they may be fair, and when they aren't.

 

One bit of advice I offer that no one has touched on yet is, don't make training mistakes worse by over-dramatizing them. If you treat a moment of unpleasantness as if it were some big huge deal, then in your dog's mind it becomes a big huge deal.Your dog felt an unpleasant tug, and she probably thought something along the lines of "Yikes, what was that? Sure don't want that to happen again", and cringed. You scooped her up, hugged her tight, probably verbalized your distress, probably released stress pheromones that she detected, and now she's thinking, "Yikes, what was that? And geez louise, look how upset and concerned my person is, so whatever it was must have been really really terrible. I don't ever want to be anywhere near this situation again. It's horrible!"

 

Here's the deal with training dogs: you're gonna make mistakes; you're gonna let your frustration show sometimes, no matter how hard you try to hide it; you're gonna get impatient; you're gonna do stuff you instantly regret. So sincerely apologize to your dog with a cheerful, "oops, sorry, my bad" and move on. I'm not saying you should be callus to your mistakes and ignore your dog's feelings. By all means learn from your mistakes and do better in the future. But, assuming your dog hasn't been subjected to repeated abuse, the sooner you forgive yourself, the sooner your dog will forget about it.