can response to body pressure be taught? or is it innate?

[rushdoggie]

So, my dog doesn't seem to respond much at all to my physical pressure either on livestock or off. He can usually find balance on the sheep but now and then I want him to back off and he doesn't seem to get it. I can move right into him and he just looks at me quizzically.

 

I noticed that he doesn't respond to pressure from me in the house, I can walk right into him and he will stand there when all my other dogs (non Border Collie and Border Collie alike) will move off when I get to a certain closeness.

 

Its odd because he is super sensitive and you'd think he would be easily pressured when I got close to him but no.

 

So, I wondered if there was some way this could be taught maybe outside of livestock work or if he just is how he is.

[red russel]

I have one absolutely like that. Who is your dog out of? It is often innate... just as somebody running at you will usually make you move... doesn't take much teaching or experience to figure that out.... but my dog doesn't get it. I have been able to, with a lot of work, help my dog understand pressure and what I'm expecting when I apply it. But then... too much pressure and he gets his feelings hurt and the lesson is lost. A dance we do together.

 

One of the things that can make this form of communication completely unsuccessful and really screw up a dog is that folks often forget dogs aren't learning from the application of pressure... but from the release of pressure. And... as with most things in life, timing is everything. right timing and the communication is succinct and crystal clear. wrong timing, even by just a little bit, and the communication is vague, ambiguous and ineffective. Or worse yet, is teaching your dog something unintended.

 

An example is when folks are attempting to get their dog to give to pressure on a flank or outrun. Often instead of getting the shape they are looking for they end up with a dog that just runs the same trajectory faster. Personally have been there done that.

 

I would HIGHLY suggest a clinic with either Jack or Kathy Knox. Whether they are successful helping you straighten your dog out or not you will very much understand the effective and appropriate application of pressure.

 

dave

olympia, wa

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Although I thought Dave's post thoughtful and his particular suggestions were good I disagree with his central thesis - that some dogs simply can't read threatening behavior. What mammals that survive infancy don't?

 

I think it more likely that the handlers have a confusing presence with a particular dog. Some/most sheepdogs are able to read through our blurry signals to our more-or-less core meaning. Others have more difficulty reading us and freeze or panic or keep on keepin on.

 

Slight women sometimes must learn how to become Dog-Large while big men learn to become Dog-smaller.

 

Mean what you say. No more/ no less.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

 

[Debbie Meier]

I've never had a dog that would not respond to body pressure, I've had them fight pretty hard to not respond to pressure in the appropriate manner. The key was to get them to understand that they were expected to/suppose to, start slow, something as simple as that they move out of your personal space.

Many teach a dog from puppyhood on to ignore their body pressure and the pressure of others, so in many cases that training will need to be retaught which can be very confusing to a dog.

[red russel]

I completely buy that I can be ambiguous and vague. I'm also suggesting there are outliers for every species. This one is wired a bit differently... as are more than a few from his lines. Sound sensitive, worried, insecure, can move anything but will be moved by nothing. Completely agree this is not the norm but also understand that not all dogs are the same.

 

dave

[Laurae]

My first dog, Taz, wouldn't easily move off my pressure, but he readily moved off the pressure of more experienced stockmen and -women. I believe his unwillingness to move off my pressure was a consequence of the kind of relationship we had. He was my best buddy and one of those "perfect" dogs who never seemed to need a correction off sheep--and if he did, I gave him a quick "hey" and he'd immediately respond. Again, off sheep. He is a very talented dog, but we struggled with sheep partly because he was not sensitive to my pressure, and I think that was because I had never had to give him a reason to find my pressure unpleasant. As I gained experience, we were able to overcome this to a certain extent. He lost much of his hearing when he was about five or six so we stopped working, but even so I don't think he would ever move off my pressure as easily as my other dogs, with whom I actively worked not to make the same mistakes.

[Jumpin Boots]

An example is when folks are attempting to get their dog to give to pressure on a flank or outrun. Often instead of getting the shape they are looking for they end up with a dog that just runs the same trajectory faster. Personally have been there done that.

 

I would HIGHLY suggest a clinic with either Jack or Kathy Knox. Whether they are successful helping you straighten your dog out or not you will very much understand the effective and appropriate application of pressure.

 

dave

olympia, wa

 

Isn't this, in part, at least to pressure being put in the wrong spot? With your example above of the dog speeding up, the dog is in fact responding to the pressure, but it's being put on the hip of the dog, thus pushing to dog forward. Doesn't the pressure often need to actually be a step ahead of the dog, thus to change it's path. Like you said...timing.

 

I am completely new to this wonderful world and (among other things too) have been struggling with making sure my pressure is applied to the right spot and the right type of pressure to help my pup to calming respond.

 

I would definitely second the Knox clinic, I was lucky enough to audit Jack a week or so ago and it was awesome. Can't wait till the summer when Kathy's out to try to get a working spot.

[Liz P]

I have to agree with Dave. I've met some pups and younger dogs that didn't have any respect for personal space and didn't bend off pressure unless taught to do so. Rowan is like that. I've been working on her since I got her at 9 weeks old. She will now bend off body pressure at home, but the few times she has been on sheep so far she forgets. It's a work in progress.

 

As to running fasting if you apply pressure, I own one of those. Only thing that worked was a suggestion from a wonderful trainer. Instead of putting pressure directly on the dog (walking towards them), you walk straight at the sheep. Worked like a charm for him.

 

ETA: You could not apply any pressure on the above dog or he would come IN faster. Pressure had to be applied at the sheep. Even trying to apply pressure ahead of the dog would make him worse.

[red russel]

Jumpin... yes. wrong spot, wrong angle, trainer in wrong position, lack of release of pressure. yes.

 

also, when you audited Jack, did you see him direct pressure to a specific body part or did you see him correcting the fact that the dog was in the wrong place... correct the wrong, let the dog figure it out.

 

and not always but I think if you put pressure in front of the dog you may well just stop him.

 

dave

[rushdoggie]

I have to agree with Dave. I've met some pups and younger dogs that didn't have any respect for personal space and didn't bend off pressure unless taught to do so. Rowan is like that. I've been working on her since I got her at 9 weeks old. She will now bend off body pressure at home, but the few times she has been on sheep so far she forgets. It's a work in progress.

 

As to running fasting if you apply pressure, I own one of those. Only thing that worked was a suggestion from a wonderful trainer. Instead of putting pressure directly on the dog (walking towards them), you walk straight at the sheep. Worked like a charm for him.

 

ETA: You could not apply any pressure on the above dog or he would come IN faster. Pressure had to be applied at the sheep. Even trying to apply pressure ahead of the dog would make him worse.

 

How did you teach that at home?

 

Its not that hes pushy or rude, but seems to have difficulty comprehending that idea that I want him to back off of me. Hes happy, tail waggy etc at home when he stands in my way at home.