Is it my dog or these sheep?

[Rich1317]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been working with border collies that were mostly already trained for about 10 years. I own a goose control company now and 3 years ago trained my own pup on ducks. He came out pretty good for my first, some quarks but good enough that I bought another to train. This time though instead of just ducks in a 50' pen, I actually am going to be able to fence in an acre on my new property and get some sheep in March! My dog is 9 months old now that and pesters my other dogs be herding them constantly. I have access to 8 sheep that are 1.5 years old in a pasture near my house. They have never seen a dog before so I wanted to make sure they'd cooperate before bringing my pup (Millie) to see them. I took my best dog Joe over there the other day to see how they'd react. I bought Joe at 4 years of age and he was already an open class champ so he knows his thing. Joe is now 8 and has only worked geese the last 4 years. Well I took him to see the sheep and the sheep barely budged. Joe looked confused. I flanked him around and again the sheep really didn't move. This was my first time in this situation so I was as confused as the dog. He flanked, got to my 12, stopped and we all just stood there. I tried moving around etc but it was awful. I was surprised his interest was as low as it was but I think the sheep had a lot to do with it. When I actually got the sheep to move, then Joe picked up the pace but again, once the sheep grouped up, they just all stood their ground.

The next day I took a quicker dog I have, glen, over there. Glen works fast so I figured that would stir things up. Like Joe, he was also a sheep herder before I converted him over. Same result, sheep could care less. At one point when I called Glen back to me, one of them started chasing him when his back was turned!

 

Now my questions is, is this because these sheep weren't dog broke? We're my dogs just not aggressive/intense enough? Its hard to believe a former open class champ to be that disinterested. I thought for sure the sheep would go nuts as soon as the dog stepped onto the field. They are katahdin sheep and treated like pets, is this the reason?

 

They are the same kind I was going to buy but I don't know now, the ones I just attempted to work would be useless to me. Any advice on getting the sheep to cooperate or what I should do? I really don't like Millie not having anything to at least try since shes almost 10 months, showing herding instinct but doesn't really get a chance to do anything yet. March seems forever away!

 

Any input is much appreciated, thanks!

[denice]

I would say it is the sheep most likely. Pet sheep just do not act like real sheep. It isn't the breed of sheep it is because they are pets and do not see the dogs as a threat or in charge. I would start a young dog on dog broke sheep that act appropriatly. You want them to be rather calm, not challenge, not be knee knocks and move nicely off a dog. Not moving will ruin a dogs confidence. When that happens it is up to you to go behind them with your dog and help him move them. I would done that with your dogs and then call the dog off.

 

Movement is what the dogs respond to. When the sheep do not move some dogs think there is nothing to do. I would just make sure the ones you get are good for training and have been worked by good dogs. Just because someone has a dog and moves them with a dog doesn't really mean anything. I would try them out before you bring them home.

[Gloria Atwater]

If these were pet sheep, then that's the problem. They have no respect for anything, never had any need to move when told and were probably hand fed by someone who never did anything with them but open gates and let them walk through. This would definitely not be good for your young dog. I hope you can find some sheep that have been worked properly by dogs to get her going. Best of luck!

~ Gloria

[Debbie Meier]

yeah, that type of sheep typically have to be "schooled" by the dog and it sometimes is not pretty and is best done with a dog that has experience doing it, even then they will often revert back to the way they are when a less experienced dog tries to handle them.

IMO, you would be better off sticking with ducks for your young dog as opposed to risking getting her discouraged on these sheep that sound like they are completely desensitized. Finding and maintaining a good training flock of sheep can be a challenge, especially if you only want to keep a small number of ewes.

[lookback]

You have some good advisers here - all the above makes sense.

I would try to find some younger sheep (5 - 12 months is good) that are used to being moved with dogs.

 

By their very nature, dogs are easy to train. This means they get trained just as much by everyday life as they do in formal sessions - and your older (trials?) dog will have been used to trials sheep - which generally move fairly easily (often rather too easily here in the UK). No wonder the poor fella was confused when confronted with "Concrete" sheep.

 

It sounds as though he saw no sheep for years, then suddenly met these horrors! Doubtless he approached with caution and they sussed him out.

 

A few years ago, a friend asked me to bring a dog to help him move some particularly stubborn (Badger-Faced) sheep which his young dog was struggling with. I took three dogs - Maddie who was somewhat "agricultural" in her approach to sheep, Kay who was a bit of a gripper but very controllable. Kay would stand no nonsense from any sheep - but just in case, I took my old girl Mel (to me, the best sheepdog in the world). Mel was so laid-back she nearly fell over, but she never failed to get the job done.

 

Having seen how aggressive the sheep were with my friend's dog, I decided to use the "Big Guns" first. Off Maddie went, up the field, but to my astonishment, she refused to get close to the stamping, head-lowering sheep. Even when I walked up the field to help her, Maddie would have none of it. I called to my partner Gill, and she released Kay who quickly came to help, but once the sheep threatened her, she turned away just at Maddie had.

 

Somewhat embarrassed, I walked back down the field thinking I wouldn't bother poor Mel with the task. She was getting old, and I didn't think she'd cope, but Gill pointed out that Mel had never failed us, and surely no harm would come to her, so I sent Mel off on a left-hand outrun. She approached the hooligans calm, wide and steady - and would you believe it, they turned and trotted down the field as though butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.

 

What Mel had that the others didn't (at the time) was supreme confidence. The sheep are not stupid. They see this, and pick-up on it immediately. So often I see situations where dogs which lack confidence cannot budge some stroppy sheep, but a well trained, confident dog approaches them steadily but purposefully, and they move easily

 

As Debbie said, you CAN build up your dogs' confidence and train them to shift stubborn sheep, but it's not nice and it's a steep uphill climb. Far better to look for some free-moving sheep that won't panic when confronted with a dog, but equally, won't stand up to it. As the dog's confidence builds, you can move on to more testing sheep if you want to.

[stockdogranch]

"The sheep are not stupid. They see this, and pick-up on it immediately. So often I see situations where dogs which lack confidence cannot budge some stroppy sheep, but a well trained, confident dog approaches them steadily but purposefully, and they move easily."

 

THIS!!!

A

[juliepoudrier]

^^Agreed. These are not the sheep to start with, but a confident dog should be able to move pretty much anything.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

As is often the case with sheepdogging, an important lesson has been learned, perhaps not the lesson the handler was hoping for.

 

Sheep matter.

 

Mama's with week old babies behave differently than the very same ewes when open. Horned sheep aren't polled sheep. Suffolks aren't Scottish Blackfaces, Kathadins aren't range Rambouilettes.

 

Most novice sheepdoggers are coming from other dog sports and often they know quite a bit about dogs - that knowledge and curiosity has brought them to stock work. Unlike the past here - or today in the UK - the first time most novices see sheep is in a small training ring.

 

Fortunately, sheep (except American Suffolks) are lovely creatures and interesting in their own right and they are the third leg of the stockwork stool. As you learn to handle your dog you must learn to read sheep and, indeed, the distinction between very good dog/handler teams and brilliant ones is the latter's ability to read sheep.

 

Shepherding isn't intuitive or easy to learn and mistakes matter. But just going to work every morning: you, your dog and your sheep is often beautiful.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

range Rambouilettes are not the same as eastern (fenced fields) Rambouilettes

 

breed matters and so does how they are managed

[TEC]

Good discussion, above. Here is a link to an extensive essay on temperament of various sheep breeds, including environmental factors that affect the dog-sheep relationship.

 

http://www.littlehats.net/journeyman/sheep-articles-002.html

 

Regarding Millie, my gut says that (like Denice and others, above) a ten month old dog needs to see moving sheep -- lots of activity. That will bring the DNA to the surface. My dog and I had a poor experience first time on sheep seven years ago. The sheep for us were overly docile. My dog was a little frightened by the whole experience, the sheep just stood calmly in the middle of the pen, and the trainer didn't do much to help the situation. Subsequently, things went much better.

 

The wrong sheep can hurt a young dog's confidence, but by the same token, proper training and reasonable stock can improve a tentative uncertain dog. For me this a general rule, and not a comment on your dogs' personalities.

 

Do you have an experienced sheepdog handler nearby; one who has started dogs? He/she might be able to get things moving, and bring Millie's instincts (and your older dogs') to the surface.

 

-- Best wishes, TEC

[KnottyClarence]

Thought about this discussion last night while I was trying to take out my two cheviot rams from their breeding flocks. Older ram has learned a few things along the way and was giving my most experienced dog, who has FHO on one hip and a plate in the other due to being hit by a car a cou ole of years ago, a run for his money. Decided to give him a rest and give his less experienced siblings a chance. Ended up shedding the ram off using two dogs and a wheel barrow wielded by me. Entertaining as only after dark sub zero gotta get the work done herding can be.

[Sue R]

Thought about this discussion last night while I was trying to take out my two cheviot rams from their breeding flocks. Older ram has learned a few things along the way and was giving my most experienced dog, who has FHO on one hip and a plate in the other due to being hit by a car a cou ole of years ago, a run for his money. Decided to give him a rest and give his less experienced siblings a chance. Ended up shedding the ram off using two dogs and a wheel barrow wielded by me. Entertaining as only after dark sub zero gotta get the work done herding can be.

 

Two dogs and a wheelbarrow - that's a new one on me. How are the flanks on that wheelbarrow? I expect it has a good stop...

[KnottyClarence]

Bo the Ram couldn't figure out whether I was bringing him food or pushing him toward the gate, which seemed to bolster the confidence of the green dogs. Eventually he figured we were all too much trouble and went out the gate.

[allforone]

Don't waste time,get different sheep.