Finding Sheep

[Diana A]

Watching runs at a trial this weekend reminded me of a topic that I've been wondering about for some time - regarding how a border collie finds sheep.

 

Back when I was just starting this with my first novice dog, I was in awe of the open dogs, thinking they just had some magical ability to always know where the sheep were. The more trials I watch, the more I realize that is not always the case. This weekend I watched many dogs (including quite a few open dogs) having trouble finding the sheep (and I have seen the same at pretty much every trial I've been to). Some crossed over, some ran too big, some started to come in too soon, some started narrow (and came close to crossing) then kicked out once they spotted the sheep, some seemed to think they saw sheep in another direction and ended up with lopsided odd-shaped outruns, a few locked onto the exhaust sheep (or, not this trial, but others, they lock onto sheep in the set out area). And this was a relatively simple, flat field. I've been at trials where the dogs had to cross a creek or go through an opening in a fence or through brush or a gully to reach the sheep - some dogs did it no problem, others were redirected all over and never did find them.

 

Given what we know about dog eyesight and that fact that *I* can often barely see the open sheep at some trials, I doubt the dogs are actually seeing them from the post, especially if the sheep are set before you get there. So are some dogs just better at finding sheep than others (inborn trait)? Do they learn strategies for finding the sheep as they gain experience? Is there a way to train better sheep finding skills? Does the handler somehow convey this information to the dog? Is it pretty typical to use redirects to help the dog find the sheep (knowing you'll be losing points for it) and unrealistic to just expect the dog to figure it out every time on their own?

 

I always walk my dog in directly towards where the sheep are so she at least knows the direction, but it doesn't always help, especially if there are objects out on the field that could be mistaken for sheep (such as one trial where there's a road behind the trial field, the moving cars in the background fool many of the dogs). And I've heard about how if you set the dog up farther from you they know the sheep are farther out. But I see handlers do this and the dogs still have trouble, and I've seen dogs with consistently quite good outruns whose handlers don't appear to do this. My dog is in pronovice/open ranch and this is one thing (among others) we need to improve before I'd think of moving her up so I'm curious how I would go about improving her sheep finding skills.

[TEC]

Your routine of walking your dog several yards to the post directly in-line with the sheep in order to help it with direction is a commonly used method, and in my experience it has helped. Another suggestion I have heard, and used, is to allow your dog to watch parts of a run or two from behind the post. As you no doubt know, when letting your dog view in advance, it's important to not let him/her see the set-out or the exhaust pens, especially when the exhaust is nearby the post. So arrange a preview, in a way that your dog sees only the sheep after they are in position at the top, and then only the outrun and lift.

 

Dogs have about 20/75 vision, varying by breed and dog. That means they have to be at 20 feet to see clearly what a human can see at 75 feet. I know...it surprised me. That is the number repeated all over the internet. If it is bogus, I'd like to know.

 

They see motion much better than a human. At a distance it seems to me that movement is key to their ability to pick-up an object visually. Try to let your dog, for its own run, see the sheep being set.

 

Dog's primarily see a greenish-yellow and blue. Other colors are muted, or seen as shades of gray. Hey, they should put blue ribbons on sheep for those 300 yard outruns

 

Where to start your dog at the post? Mine bends-out nicer for long outruns when she sets-up a little behind me. That kind of thing may vary with the dog, and the way it was trained.

 

The terrain and vegetation are other factors that come into play. A dog who sees the sheep from the post may lose them in rolls and swales in the ground, as the outrun progresses. Uneven ground may not be apparent to a handler. Remember their view is from approx. 14-24 inches above the surface, while ours is about 5-6 feet above. Tall grass and brush can make finding the sheep even more difficult. If given an opportunity to walk the course, I suggest getting down at dog level from time to time to size things up.

 

I sometimes graze a friend's sheep when he is away. The grass is over waist high in places, and on a steep, uneven hill. Getting started each job is always difficult. The sheep seem nervous, wanting to go up slope to a rocky summit where there is no grass, and turning their noses-up to nice green stuff in a creek valley. Need lots of adjustments to keep them on the desired ground. The first day usually results in a couple cross-overs. Subsequently, I shortened the outruns considerably, and saw no cross-overs. With time the stock trained to stay generally where they were placed, and my dog became accustomed to tall grass. Reduced vision IME draws the dog closer to the stock, decreasing time/space for the dog to correct itself. I found that a Drummond Maxi-Blaster whistle superior in tall grass (and uneven ground) to higher pitched, lower volume whistles. Imagine what it is like for a dog down low in vegetation, which no doubt muffles the whistle and obscures vision, additionally having the rustling sound of grass slapping about its ears. (In those conditions, be sure to keep your dog frequently hydrated and provide breaks.) If a dog is clearly lost, IMO give-up points to direct it to the sheep, rather than have a messy outrun which sets a tone for the remainder of the course, or getting DQ'd for lack of progress.

 

There's folks here who trial frequently, and they will have suggestions, as well. In summary: 1) practice on uneven ground and/or tall vegetation, 2) work-up from short outruns to longer ones, 3) and use a good volume whistle for corrections, along with 4) try the tips shortly before your trial run -- these may help with seeing/finding sheep at the top. -- Best wishes, TEC

[Pam Wolf]

I've noticed sometimes my dogs actually track the sheep on the farm. I have lots of small hills which presents LOTS of out of sight places for sheep. And my sheep will freeze in the woods, making them difficult to see. (the angora goats were famous for this). I've had dogs that would almost close their eyes and scent the air when standing at the post (especially if the wind was coming into their face).

 

I think they use all their senses to find stock.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

One of the difficulties dogs have is too much training, too little practical work. I remember the 735 in Wisconsin. After the first four open dogs hadn't got to their sheep I turned to Jack Knox, "We don't train for this."

 

"We don't teach our dogs how to look for sheep," he replied.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

I think in training, and at trials when possible (and if it can be done without wasting a great deal of time <--and I say this as a person who is often at set out and who has to deal with and make up the resulting delays), handlers should always make an effort to help their dogs find the stock. Calling a dog off who hasn't found its stock (at least for young/not fully trained dogs) teaches them that stock might not be out there. If a trainer persists in helping a dog learn that stock are there whenever you send the dog for stock, then the dog will start to look for stock, even if they aren't obvious. This can be accomplished by getting your dog out to as many places as possible on various terrains and being willing to walk/run (or ride on something) a couple of hundred yards or more to encourage the dog to keep going and keep looking until it finds stock.

 

That said, I've seen many a dog cut right in front of the sheep standing at set out (along with the human and set out dog) and never see the sheep. I can't help but think that such dogs are so used to finding sheep at a certain distance that they never look up the field as they circle just below the sheep. Sometimes such dogs appear to look right at us and keep going. It's surprising, but I think such dogs have just never gained the experience they need to know that sheep could be anywhere on a field and they should keep running out and looking until they find them, instead of just going a certain distance and turning in.

 

I have been blessed with one such dog who will keep looking for sheep till she finds them. It's a huge help at home (and elsewhere) when I don't know where the stock are and need to get them, or when a young dog has allowed stock to escape into the woods or elsewhere--I can go get that dog, send her in the general direction I think the stock might be and know she'll find them. But many more dogs need to learn this skill....

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

We graze our sheep in various fields around our farm during the day and keep them in the field by the barns at night. I take every opportunity when moving our sheep before dark to work on my dogs learning to search for sheep. This often requires them to go through gaps in hedge rows to find the sheep in the next field over or around corners, over hills, etc. it's a work in progress. My goal is to stay at the gate and tell them to go find the sheep, wherever they may be and bring them back to me.

 

For those who know our farm we will send our open dogs from the field along the drive down near the road, through the gate to the trial field, and up to above the ridge in the trial field. The dogs need to take redirects and look for sheep on their own.

 

Mark

[stockdogranch]

Yup--too much training for trials only, not enough real work. I realize not everyone is fortunate enough to have a lot of acreage or terrain to train their dogs, but making an effort to haul dogs out where they can learn some real skills is important.

 

I'm lucky--I live on a ranch with rangeland, orange, and avocado groves--avocados are grown in steep, hilly ground, and are very dense with vegetation. Like Mark, at a fairly young age, I point them in the general direction of the groves when I know the sheep have escaped up there, and let the dog figure it out. If they are given time and some direction, they do figure it out,

A

[Liz P]

Lack of experience on a variety of fields is a major handicap.

 

At many trials you can't leave the handlers post to help your dog. They have a schedule to keep and want you off the field ASAP. Somethings this even applies to the novice/novice class. I got yelled at by a judge for trying to leave the post to help my dog out.

 

I try to set up my dogs at the post while the sheep are still being set. They see movement much better than stationary shapes. This helps a lot. I also like to let my dogs see sheep coming down the field so that I am sure they know there are sheep out there somewhere.

 

Some of my dogs naturally look for sheep much better than others. They will even air scent. The dogs that don't look for sheep as well are also the dogs that tend to pattern train quickly. I try to give everyone experience hunting for stock in rough terrain, in the brush, etc. They learn to trust that if you send them, there are sheep out there somewhere.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree that variety and experience are extremely important. I dragged Twist everywhere, even buying time on the finals practice field in TN, when she was just a youngster. Nothing will improve a dog more than mileage and varied experiences at home and everywhere else you can get to.

 

Regarding helping your dog at a trial, some will allow it and some won't. That's one of those things you ask about in the handler's meeting. The answer isn't universally no. Even at the Bluegrass, handlers are usually allowed to help their nursery dogs find the sheep the first go round. After that, the judge is generally less tolerant. If the judge/course director does allow the handler to go help, then the best thing the handler can do is be quick about it. Too often I see handlers mosey up the field wasting a great deal of time, and then when their dog finally gets to the sheep, if the sheep and/or dog decide to behave badly, the handler is nowhere near to help set things right. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

The point is that at some trials people are allowed to help their dogs find the sheep and it doesn't hurt to ask. I for one (as a set out person) prefer for each packet of sheep to be exhausted if at all possible so that they don't learn they can run back to the set out. So if handlers are allowed to help their dogs, they should do so quickly and then fetch the sheep the exhaust as expeditiously as possible.

.

J.

 

Lack of experience on a variety of fields is a major handicap.

 

At many trials you can't leave the handlers post to help your dog. They have a schedule to keep and want you off the field ASAP. Somethings this even applies to the novice/novice class. I got yelled at by a judge for trying to leave the post to help my dog out.

[stockdogranch]

"I for one (as a set out person) prefer for each packet of sheep to be exhausted if at all possible so that they don't learn they can run back to the set out. So if handlers are allowed to help their dogs, they should do so quickly and then fetch the sheep the exhaust as expeditiously as possible."

 

Absolutely! Often, the course director will ask that the sheep be exhausted anyway, and it's much more beneficial for the handler and dog (and less work for my dogs, who are working their butts off, anyway), for the handler to hustle up the field to help the dog gather the sheep and exhaust them. But hustle is the operative word here...

A

[Shoofly]

While i think it's important to teach dogs to look for sheep, and i start training from day 1 with this in mind, using a consistent system to help my dogs know where sheep are, i also think it's important to build flexibility in the dogs so they'll listen and trust you when you try to guide them to sheep they don't see. While my place isn't very big, often i'll take a big group of sheep and split them into 3 or 4 groups, dropping groups here there and everywhere around the place, then asking my dog to go pick up (and drop again) various groups. It's great training to send a dog for sheep that are in sight, and then ask them to go pick up a totally different, out of sight group. It's nice for building confidence and trust.

[Liz P]

At the trials where people have not been allowed to hustle up the field, there was an exhaust dog on duty to go get them.

[Liz P]

Robin, the other day I was doing something similar with my dog. We started with some shedding and split the flock into 5 groups. I had her drive them to various points and leave them. I then sent her to get each group, did some look back, etc. The next day when I tried the same exercise she slipped in the trees and showed up a few minutes later with all the sheep I had set on the west side of the farm. I had only wanted her to get the closest group first so I could practice look backs. My dog outsmarted me.

[Diana A]

So the consensus seems to be that this isn't unusual and the answer is lots of experience finding sheep. What is the best way to give the dog experience? Do you just let them thrash around until they figure it out? Does that become counter-productive at some point and hurt the dog's confidence? Or is there a more systematic approach to help them develop a good method for finding sheep? That is assuming there even is such a thing as an 'ideal method'.

 

I've had both ends of the spectrum in my current dog. Sometimes she's very wide and deep and misses the sheep that way (not checking in as she goes - just running). Other times she thinks she's passed them and starts to come in or cut across, looking inward. I can redirect her in either case, but I'd like her to be able to do it on her own and not waste so much energy guessing and then having to fix it.

[TEC]

Like you say, there may not be an ideal method to train a dog to find sheep. Beyond the basic fundamentals of training a young dog, often a person has to use a judicious, well-informed, trial and error approach.

I use the model of successively close approximations (SCA, for short. You can Google "successive approximations" or "shaping") for most sheepdog training. In other words, find something roughly resembling the end product that your dog can likely do, and give it a try. If the dog doesn't succeed at that, make it easier. If the dog does well at it, try it again to be sure it wasn't a fluke, and then make it just slightly more complex for the next go. It's all about setting-up scenarios, taking tiny steps and patience.

If you have practical work available, sometimes training opportunities will present themselves. I like the idea mentioned above of having the dog gather a good sized flock from a flat field. Best scenario would be to have the flock scattered about in little bunches. The dog has to keep checking-in to be sure it has covered the entire field. If your flock and field size are limited, a handler could take the time to spread a few sheep around, and ask the dog to gather them.

If the dog has difficulty with a large gather, shorten the outrun and start the dog from a "down" with handler somewhere around midway on the outrun to push the dog out, or to call it in.

When dog is doing well at gathering widely scattered sheep, incrementally lengthen outrun to 200-300 yds, sending from your feet.

If that went OK, a handler can begin gathering pastures with undulating terrain, or having tall vegetation/trees. Start with short outruns and gradually increase them. Try to hide some or all the sheep. If dog is not bending out, walk out about half-way to start it, so you are in position to make corrections.

I would try to avoid having to use "look-back", as that is not the goal at this point. You want a complete gather, the dog having found all the sheep.

After the above groundwork is laid, then begin setting smaller packets at steadily increasing distances, so that your dog has more difficulty seeing them from the post.

I have found that SCA is sometimes two-steps-forward-and-one-step-back. But doesn't that just go with the territory of dog training?

Hey, my dog is far from perfect. Just today she got lost in waist high grass and gathered the first group she came upon, leaving another behind. She couldn't see them. I had her bring the first packet toward me until I had a good view of that group and my dog, downed her, and had her look-back. That worked today. The way I see it, if she can get the job done in a workmanlike manner in extreme conditions, she is going to do pretty well in more commonly seen situations. I have found this to be the case. OTOH, to properly train/fix the flaw, I would try to duplicate the scenario, shorten the outrun, and be in position to correct her if she came in too soon.

I hope handlers who trial more than me provide their guidance. There's got to be numerous avenues to the same destination. -- Best wishes, TEC

[Petes Mom]

Okay, this has been something I have been wondering about since beginning to learn about herding sheep with my first border collie, Pete. The farms we have been training on are all fairly small, about 40 acres at the most. Even the first trainer I worked with didn't know where we were going to be able to train for long distance work. But, I am wondering if Pete might be a good dog at this work, because he likes to run big (he takes off) and likes to work independently (I.e. he blows me off!)? I am only partially kidding here, because he is a great dog to work with in these smaller fields. He waits for me to send him, he'll pretty much lie down when I ask, and he will come off the sheep when I call him.

 

I'm also concerned about stamina; do they usually have enough energy to last through those long runs, searching out the sheep? I've noticed on some hot days (80 degrees) that Pete gets pretty warm in a pretty short time (20 minutes).

 

Rachel

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

I once had a dog with a similar but not identical problem: he hated to go out for sheep he couldn't see. The solution was to spot sheep he could see then take them out of sight. Next step was sending him to the same spot w/o the prior seeing. Next step was sending him short distances to unseen but always spotted sheep.

 

Worked.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pam Wolf]

I've worked with many people who have little access to large fields or just very flat fields. I tell them ways to hide the sheep (which can be very difficult on 10 very flat acres!) and how to teach the dog to look for sheep. I am lucky to have LOTS of small hills. While I can often see over the hill, the dog can't and it makes hiding sheep easy so my dogs learn to hunt for sheep very early in their training.

 

Using a little imagination it isn't very hard to use cars, tractors or other obstacles to hide sheep in various locations in order to teach the dog to look for them.

 

Come to think of it "look" is the primary command I sue with the goats

[TEC]

 

 

I'm also concerned about stamina; do they usually have enough energy to last through those long runs, searching out the sheep? I've noticed on some hot days (80 degrees) that Pete gets pretty warm in a pretty short time (20 minutes).

 

Rachel

 

Eighty degrees and high humidity can feel hot. If there is no breeze, I would be cautious about intensely working a dog for 20 minutes straight in such conditions. Provide breaks.

 

Every task is unique, dogs have varying heat tolerances, and eighty degrees can feel differently depending on other weather conditions.

 

Your question about searching for sheep is not completely clear. If you ask whether a dog should unsuccessfully try to find sheep for 20 minutes, I would say that for numerous reasons (including heat injury) it would not be a good idea. If the dog is casting about and not finding any sheep at all within less than 3-4 minutes I would call it off and/or help the dog. A dog can get discouraged and not want to look again, especially in extreme temperature. Provide an easier situation on the next go, so the dog is able to find most the sheep within a reasonable time.

 

There are many different kinds of jobs. For instance, if stock have somehow gotten into brush or heavy trees, and the dog is finding small bunches on each try, it may need more than a few minutes to fetch each group, but frequent water breaks on hot days are always important.

 

In high temps when the task is intense (like lots of flanking commands or when dog needs to wear back and forth), I try for short bursts of work interspersed with breaks in available shade (folding handheld umbrella?). I let my dog wet her tongue at almost every opportunity, and larger amounts are provided at longer rest periods.

 

For more relaxed jobs, for example when the dog is basically following a large flock to keep it moving down path/road, it may be able to continue for longer than 20 minute periods without a break.

 

The above are my opinions based on my dog in NW weather conditions and terrain. I'm interested in forum members' experiences from the NW US and other parts of the world. My border collie hasn't shown quit, and she remains a good worker for long periods. For those reasons I carefully watch for signs of fatigue, so that she is not inadvertently overtaxed -- Kind regards, TEC

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Since I'd hate to be responsible for a dog dying from heat stroke, understand that what follows are observations of an experienced handler and trial host, not prescriptions for what you ought to do with your dog.

 

1. Trialing is much harder on a dog than farm work.

 

2. To some extent dogs do acclimatize to heat. Dogs in the spring are less heat tolerant than the same dogs in the fall. Thirty years ago, before we knew better, British dogs (cool adapted) would be imported to the hot American South and trialed the week they arrived. Some of these dogs collapsed and were ever after prone to heat collapse.

 

3. Heat tolerance is age related. Older dogs are less physically fit and less tolerant.

 

4. To some degree this is countered by wisdom - the older dog will quit or go to water quicker than the young Turk.

 

5. Most of the distressed dogs I've seen gave clear signs (shade seeking, ineffectual response to commands, wobbly hindquarters) before they collapsed. Handler fixation can kill dogs.

 

6. It takes some time for overheated dogs to return to normal. I've known of dogs that died in their kennels (untreated) hours after they were overheated. I once asked a Texan how they dealt with dogs after trialing on a very hot day. "Never put 'em up hot," he told me.

 

Although some strides have been made at trials (allowing dogs to go to water at trials w/o penalty. allowing handlers to retire hot dogs while keeping their points); though the judge is usually better able to spot signs of dog distress than its narrowly focused, intent handler, judges rarely call off the overheated dog

 

I can understand judges' reluctance but - friends, it's just a damn dog trial: black and white dogs annoying white sheep on the green grass.

 

If a dog is suffering from heat exhaustion its work is suffering too. The sheep can read that exhausted dog better than its handler and know they don't need to cooperate.There's little chance it'll get that last shed or put difficult sheep in the pen. I never seen a run where the judge who called "Time" on a distressed dog cost it a placing.

 

Usually, the overheated dog was handled uneconomically around the course and would have a dismal score if it did finish.

 

At my trial this weekend dogs will be running a big course in 80 degree temperatures. My judge will call "Time" on any heat distressed dog.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

Amen Donald. Nothing bothers me more than a judge (or espeically handler) who won't call an overheated dog. I understand the reluctance WRT the fact that it's a judgment call and the judge needs to determine if the disobedience (for example) is heat-related, which can be tricky, but I vividly recall one such dog not get called off, its owner refusing it water after the run (which had pretty much fallen apart as the dog got hotter and hotter) because he was mad at the dog, even though it was clear to people watching that the dog was overheated, a trial worker saying something to the trial host, and NO consequences (not even a talking to) to the handler. We as a culture need to get past the tradition of independence in this regard and step up for the *dogs.* Note: I'm not saying this happens all the time, and I have seen many more handlers let their dogs go to water while still one the field--the lack of a penalty is in the fact that you won't lose points, but the clock does keep running--and I have come to have the utmost respect for those handlers, because even as big hats who usually are right there at the top, they are willing to risk that placement by allowing their hot dogs to go to the tub on the field on hot days. We should all be willing to do that.

 

J.

 

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

 

Although some strides have been made at trials (allowing dogs to go to water at trials w/o penalty. allowing handlers to retire hot dogs while keeping their points); though the judge is usually better able to spot signs of dog distress than its narrowly focused, intent handler, judges rarely call off the overheated dog

 

I can understand judges' reluctance but - friends, it's just a damn dog trial: black and white dogs annoying white sheep on the green grass.

[Sue R]

Thank you, Donald, that was wonderful and well-written. Scott Glen is one of many good handlers who put their dogs' welfare first, and I commend everyone who does. Some do not and I feel for their dogs.