Finally, my personal training grounds, a few questions :)

[Rich1317]

Hi all,

I've been working with border collies for 13 years, including the last 9 for goose control. I've worked ducks more times than I can count and when I first started out, goats. I finally bought a house with a few acres and am so excited that I can fence off an area and get some sheep to work my dogs in our slow times and give them what they love to do.

I do have a few questions, I plan on having 4 hair sheep as I've heard they are easier to maintain. What size field should I plan on fencing? what dimensions should I aim for? One option I have on the property is a perfect rectangle. The other option is more pentagonish with a hill that has about an 8' drop over about a 40' area. That spot also would have a section about 75' long that goes along a road which makes me nervous.

My other question is how high of a fence? I want to keep in any sheep that might get spooked and make a jump.

I won't be starting any of this until the spring but I plan on getting a barn in Sept and the placement of that is dependent on where I fence for the sheep. Thanks for any help!

[juliepoudrier]

Several thoughts:

1. Four sheep are going to get pretty sour to work pretty quickly unless you plan to rotate them out and bring new sheep in on a regular basis (or you're only working them occasionally).

2. Contact your local Cooperative Extension Service agent to have your pasture assessed and to help you determine optimal stocking rate. If s/he gives you a rate for cattle, you can use the general rule of thumb that 1 cow/calf pair = 5 sheep. You'll also need to consider your willingness to supplement the forage if necessary (i.e., if you have more stock than the land can support) when determining how large an area you want to fence.

3. I would go with 4-foot fence (48" or 52"), more for keeping predators out than keeping your sheep in. Sheep have no reason to sail over fences unless they are being pushed really hard by something like a predator.

4. If you invest in good fencing, then running fence along a road shouldn't make any difference. I also prefer plenty of gates so that I don't have to walk to from one end of a pasture to another just to gain access through a gate.

5. I would personally fence the largest space feasible, and would include as much interesting terrain as possible. Try to include trees for shade/shelter for the sheep. You can also build a shelter, but in my experience, sheep prefer natural shelter to manmade, given the choice. If you have to build, two sides and a roof would be sufficient, or you can try a hoop structure or similar. Of course if you plan to put the sheep in the barn at night or whenever, then a separate shelter may not be necessary, though they still should have access to shade and some protection from the elements.

6. Start reading up now on sheep care and maintenance. Talk to local folks about what works for them, and plan to buy your stock locally if possible, because what's thriving currently in your area will likely thrive for you too.

 

J.

[Rich1317]

Thanks for the info!

 

I'm in Maryland and we don't have any predators although an hour to the west and north there are a few bears and coyotes so in the future I may have to worry about that problem.

 

I didn't think of the sheep going sour. I planned on working them a few days a week. My father lives a half hour away and recently got 8 sheep to keep his pastures trim. Would it work of rotating my 4 with his every few weeks?

 

There's not a tree on my property although this spring we plan on planting a bunch. I was going to just put up a run in shed for the sheep for shelter from weather and sun. So would having hilly areas actually be better for working, even if they're kinda steep? Supplementing them with food isn't a problem for me and I know I'd have to do that no matter what from Oct-march I'm sure.

 

Thanks for the insight, gave me some things to think about that I didn't before.

[Sue R]

Yes, you do have predators in MD, potentially as near as the next neighbor with dogs.

[juliepoudrier]

Yes on the varied terrain. Sheep and dog can traverse a steep hill, and it will provide different training challenges for you (sheep prefer to travel in one direction on hills, so driving them against the way they're most inclined to go is great work for your dog), not to mention that hills, etc., can provide blind spots with which you can teach your dog to actually look for sheep that are out of sight.

 

As for predators, Sue is right, not to mention that there are likely coyotes closer than you think. Fencing really is more about keeping stuff out. Sheep aren't as inclined to escape as goats are. So put up the best, sturdiest fence you can afford. Top it with a strand of barbed wire or hot wire if you want to have extra insurance against stuff getting in or out.

 

The advantage of a run-in type shed is that if you make it roomy enough, you could provide your sheep with round bales (much more economical and less labor intensive than squares) under shelter, which would help the hay to last longer (since it's out of the weather).

 

ETA: Sheep are individuals, and the more sheep you have, the more you can mix and match to get groups that work differently. A dog should be trained on large groups (which generally require a lot more push to get and keep them moving and also require the dog to tuck in the sides, etc., compared to a very small group) as well as small. So if you can rotate or mix and match with your dad's sheep, it would be better. If you can sometimes get all of them together and work the larger group (although 12 isn't exactly large, it's better than four) that would help too.

 

J.

[Alchemist]

No advice on the pasture, but I'd consider adding "dog broke" to the list of desirable qualities to look for in sheep, unless you and your dogs already have a lot of experience.

 

I've also been told it's a mistake for first-time sheep owners to purchase registered sheep. It's easy for things to go wrong, hard to recoup your costs through your own breeding program.

 

Personally I'd try to get sheep from someone I know, or someone who comes highly recommended to me. I'd want to know I was getting healthy sheep, capable of producing, being good mothers, thriving on the pasture available, and resistant to parasites and footrot - not some cull ewes someone was trying to get rid of because they wouldn't mother their lambs. Sheep that are "easy keepers", of a breed that doesn't sour quickly with dogs, would be very high on my list.

 

And don't get bottle-fed lambs for your dogs!

 

(No experience myself, just trying to learn so that I'm ready if I ever do manage to locate some pasture of my own!)

[Alchemist]

Oh, and as for coyotes... I saw one once in my fenced back yard (suburban Baltimore).

[terrecar]

There are coyotes in Harford County, Maryland.

[Amy467]

Help ..... I am so new to this forum thing and just need to connect with someone in the BC world right now ....brief history .... we rehomed a 1 yr. old female BC named Zoee in February ... she came from a very weird and un healthy situation ... she is a purebred BC and the folks who had her crated her for 8 hours a day, did not spay her, and she (Zoee) was involved in a very horrible accident on Halloween in 2012... she was taken to a parade and where she was spooked and she jumped out of the 2nd story of a parking garage which fractured both front legs. The previous owners did not follow up on her emergency vet care and her casts were never changed out as her legs atrophied and she never got any PT. We took her after they responded to an ad we had on craigslist as we were looking to rehome/adopt a dog to join our Australian Shepherd/Blue Heeler male (4 years old, neutered male). Long story short, we got Zoee and took her rather quickly as her situation SUCKED. We have since worked with a dog trainer and our wonderful vet to right the wrongs ... she is now spayed and we have worked on the PT end of her front legs diligently. She has gone form being crated 8 hours a day to only being crated at night (if she chooses) ... we leave the door open for her. She and Racer (our other dog) adore each other although their are some dominance issues still playing out. Our biggest problem right now is that Zoee was housebroken in her previous home and she was doing great here, even using the dog door, for the first few weeks. then she became timid about the dog door .... she will go to the bathroom on command which is fine but she is having accidents as well. Even if we have played all morning (I am a teacher off in summers) from 7 - 12 and we go off for a 4 hour time span, she will have pooped in the house. It isn't all the time and that is the biggest issue. We played al day and night and she just came up and peed on our new rug in front of the family and our other dog .... Zoee is an incredible dog and we love her and have NO intentions of getting grid of her but the potty in the house thing is driving us insane! Again, n o real rhyme or reason to it ..... she went from March - June all day without any accidents while I was teaching. We have her outside for hours before bedtime .... we are OCD about making certain both dogs are out and go to the bathroom before we leave anywhere and always let them out first thing when we get back. Again, it can be fine for a week and then we have a pee accident or poop? Can anyone please help us out ..... tonight was really bad just because it was so un expected. My husband grabbed her immediately and went to get her outside but she jumped out of his arms and got into her crate. I cleaned the rug and then went and got her and took her outside and we walked and talked a bit and then I had her pee again and praised her like crazy. THANKS!!! Amy

[Alchemist]

Amy, you might get more responses to this if you were to post it in the "General Border Collie Discussion" section rather than the "Training Discussion" section (which is more specific to "Working Stockdogs", the heading it lies under.

 

Thank you for rescuing this poor girl from what sounds like a horrible situation.

[juliepoudrier]

Amy,

This section is for training on livestock, so really only those folks who train their dogs on livestock are likely to look here and respond to you. As Alchemist said, you'll get many more responses if you post in the "General" section down below.

 

If you go to the main page of the Border Collie Boards, scroll down until you see the general section. Click on that and it will open that page. You will see a black bar on the upper right that says "Start a new topic." Click that. You will have the opportunity to label your topic so people know what you're asking. Unfortunately by adding your question to this existing thread, you're not going to reach very many people.

 

To answer your question, you have a crate and Zoee seems willing to use it, so I would go back to treating her like a puppy. When she's in the house and you can't watch her 100% of the time, she should be in the crate. Take her out to go potty and make sure she does her business. Then she can come back in and be free in the house, but only under a watchful eye. Continue with potty training as if she was never trained in the first place.

 

I don't know what type of dog door you have, but if she was using it and then stopped, I'd guess something happened with it to spook her so that she is now reluctant to go through it. It would be a weird noise or similar. I had a cat who was afraid of the cat door because one time when she blasted through it, it made a sort of banging noise because it was set in the metal part of a storm door--it was *her* fault it made that noise in the first place, but ever after that, she'd dash through in a panic like she had the devil on her tail. So it's not farfetched to believe that something happened with Zoee going through the door that spooked her to using the door.

 

Anyway, the best advice is to consider her not housetrained and approach retraining her as you would any untrained puppy.

 

J.

[Amy467]

Amy, you might get more responses to this if you were to post it in the "General Border Collie Discussion" section rather than the "Training Discussion" section (which is more specific to "Working Stockdogs", the heading it lies under.

 

Thank you for rescuing this poor girl from what sounds like a horrible situation.

Thank you .. I posted in general topics .... thank you!

[Mark Billadeau]

There are coyotes in every county in MD. There are coyotes in DC. You may not see them on or near your property, but they are around.

 

I agree with Julie's suggestions on fencing, number of sheep, and area to be fenced. Don't forget about a water source; preferably one that won't freeze in the winter.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi all,

I've been working with border collies for 13 years, including the last 9 for goose control. I've worked ducks more times than I can count and when I first started out, goats. I finally bought a house with a few acres and am so excited that I can fence off an area and get some sheep to work my dogs in our slow times and give them what they love to do.

I do have a few questions, I plan on having 4 hair sheep as I've heard they are easier to maintain. What size field should I plan on fencing? what dimensions should I aim for? One option I have on the property is a perfect rectangle. The other option is more pentagonish with a hill that has about an 8' drop over about a 40' area. That spot also would have a section about 75' long that goes along a road which makes me nervous.

My other question is how high of a fence? I want to keep in any sheep that might get spooked and make a jump.

I won't be starting any of this until the spring but I plan on getting a barn in Sept and the placement of that is dependent on where I fence for the sheep. Thanks for any help!

 

 

Just echoing what everyone else has said! Hair sheep don't require shearing, but what *type* of hair sheep depends. Barbs are like deer, dorpers are big and get spoiled, katahdin are pretty okay, St Croix vary according to flock, it seems, and crossbreds of any of these can be of any temperament or attitude. Your best bet would be to find someone with a flock of sheep that behave sensibly around dogs and buy from them.

 

But as has been said, 4 sheep are going to sour very quickly. Within a week they'll have every least fault in your or your dog sussed out, and within the month they'll be sick of you both. If you're going to work dogs regularly, you'll need enough sheep to keep them rotated around and rested. If it were me, I'd say your 4 plus your dad's 8 would be a very bare minimum, and they'd need to be changed out more often than once a month. If you use 4 sheep several times a week, they're going to be really sour and unhappy by the end of that week. Heck, at a sheepdog trial, if sheep are run through the trial course more than twice, they develop cranky attitudes! Remember, they don't enjoy being worked by dogs.

 

As for working area, I'd say variety is the spice of life! You don't want to do the same things in the same area all the time. The sheep will figure out all the tricks and bad spots, and your dogs need to be challenged. Hills are good, so long as they aren't a hazard to life and limb!

 

As for predators ... yes, you do have them. Coyotes show up even in urban neighborhoods and where people have dogs, you have predators. There's nothing worse than loose/stray dogs in a sheep field. So, I'd definitely plan for your barn to have the capacity to shut the sheep into a safe enclosure at night and a pen adjacent to the barn in case you need to keep them shut up for several days. Be prepared!

 

Best of luck on your new venture! I envy you the acreage to keep your own sheep.

 

~ Gloria