Is behavior with horses any indication of behavior on stock?

[rlwzgd]

I've been considering trialing and really want to learn more. I've talked with a few trainers (the ones I can find, please offer suggestions if you know any), watched some practices/training with the all breed people (it's the most accessible), and started reading Herding Dog, Progressive Training (might have butchered the title).

I have my border collie pup (9 month old) that I was hiking with this weekend. A group of horses came from a cross trial in front of us. At first he was interested (ears alert, tail down but not between legs, just down - carries it above his back). In my opinion he was studying. Not really approaching, studying. Then the last one made a noise. He lost it - pulling me 90 degrees away from the horse. No barking or anything, just wanting to get away in the quickest way possible. I did not let him run. We stood there until he was calm and then proceeded on our walk. He was unsettled whenever he heard them, but fine otherwise. The scare crow in the field could have spooked him instead, but my gut is that it was the horse nay.

I can see where this isn't like stock at all... It's a huge thing with a humanoid shape on it. But it has hooves and is a prey animal, so it might be like stock. Is his behavior indicative that he might not be ready to put on stock? The last thing I want is a dog terrified of sheep.

Thanks for any advice. I know he's young, and I know nothing about working stock, so I'm trying to find "the right time" to introduce him, since I don't have access to sheep regularly... If there is a "right time", that is.

Rebecca

 

etf spelling errors...

[Laurae]

I don't think there is a correlation here--if your dog has never been up close to a horse, it's understandable for him to be a bit wary. Horses are big. And it sounds as though he had a thoughtful, rather than panicked, response, so next time, if you are matter of fact, he will likely be as well. Sheep are an entirely different thing, and you won't know how he will react to them until he is properly introduced to them. And then you may have a hard time pulling him away ;-)

[Liz P]

No, horses are huge and, when being ridden, don't act quite like typical herd animals. He is also in the middle of a fear period.

 

I tend to introduce males to stock later than females. They take longer to mature mentally. About a year old is a good time to start them, but some trainers will begin work as early as 6 months. Just be careful. When they are not quite mature enough they tend to be rough with the stock. To protect the sheep, some people use inappropriately harsh corrections, which can permanently turn a dog off herding or ruin their confidence.

[RichardH]

At least he's not horse stupid - that's the other end of the spectrum where the dog decides the horse would like to view his greatest play overtures and to have a furry idiot zooming between its legs and barking at it. Sounds like you did good.

 

-Rich

[rlwzgd]

Thanks! I'm trying to get out of my head that he was scared of horses so he'll be scared of sheep... Really, I'd be scared if something godzilla sized made a noise at me, too. I think if I approach introducing him to stock with that attitude (when the time comes), he'll be skittish simply because I am. If anything, I think *I* need a bit of space and more exposure to stock to make sure I'm in the right mental state.

 

He is a goofy puppy. I can put pressure on him with simple training stuff (agility, etc), but my gut is that - as much as I'd like him to be - he's simply not ready for stock work. I'll continue to read and watch as many people as I can. Is there anyone around St. Louis that you (generic you) could recommend?

 

There's a trial close-ish to me next weekend that I'm hoping to get to and then three coming up in the fall

 

Rebecca

[loggerboots]

Rebecca,

 

FWIW (you know I'm greener than you are, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt), Emmie is a bit of a scaredy cat in every day life, and showed no interest in herding anything until we brought her out to see some sheep. Then she turned on. Her 2nd time out, she was showing all kinds of instinct that I didn't know she had. There's something about sheep... she's definitely not afraid of them.

 

fwiw, there're horses on the farm where we're taking lessons and she shows no interest at all in those (she just looks past them, focusing on the sheep and other dogs, though she seems to like the chickens, too). We also have a herd of goats that do target grazing in my neighborhood and she shows no reaction to them, either. From my (limited) observation, my dog perceives stock vs. non-stock on a case by case basis. Note, Emmi is a lot older than your guy (20 months or so).

 

from Liz P:

Just be careful. When they are not quite mature enough they tend to be rough with the stock. To protect the sheep, some people use inappropriately harsh corrections, which can permanently turn a dog off herding or ruin their confidence.

 

This seems to be what happened with my dog in her previous life, though she was biting cows, not sheep. We're just now in the process of trying to rebuild her confidence on sheep and so far, so good, but if that is what happened, it has set her back.

[Gideon's girl]

Both of mine have always understood that the horses are dangerous to them. They will bark at them through the fence if we don't stop it, but they avoid them when we have the dogs out in the barnyard. They can walk right past without more than a sideways glance. They both herd the calf and goats without hesitation.

[juliepoudrier]

I have trained dogs around horses and the only time any of them have tried to work the equine was when I had a young guard donkey in with the flock. All of my dogs seem to be fairly wary of horses, which is a good thing, because a horse can easily kill them. That said, we are working on getting my main set out dogs used to working *around* horses, since some trials (includeing the National Finals) set sheep using horses.

 

So I have a horse here from a friend because this particular horse has been around sheep and border collies and isn't inclined to go after a dog if the dog is in the pasture with it. As I work on getting her fit for the finals set out job, I will also introduce my dogs to the concept of working for me while I am horseback. They already know that they can pick sheep up off a horse, but they still need to get used to *me* being on the horse and giving commands from there.

 

Anyway, fear of a horse is not any indication of whether your dog will work stock, and fear of a horse can actually be a life saver for the dog, because some horses can be quite aggressive toward dogs (though not usually while a human is on board).

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Julie, for what it's worth--I've never had a dog act at all weird as far as me working the dog from a horse (once the dog is used to the horse, of course (of course (sorry, got a Mr. Ed thing going there))). They just kind of look at me like, "oh, you're tall today!"

A

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks Anna. I know Pip was rather confused when I did a demo and tried to give commands through the PA system, but of course being on a horse isn't quite the same as that. Still, working the horse will also be a convenient way to get the dogs fit! Lots of nice trails through the woods around here.

 

J.

[5Bordercollies]

Consider yourself blessed if you have a dog who either is scared of horses or for whatever reason ignores them. Just yesterday my eight month old took off after my eleven strong horse herd at speed tangling her five meter leash around my leg and sending me sprawling onto the rocky kraal ground. Thankfully she seems to have a bit more savvy than her father had at her age. She kept her distance. He nipped the wrong horses' heels and got kicked for his trouble. Thankfully all he ended up with was a bloody tongue.

[Smalahundur]

The most important task here is the fall roundup. That is done on horseback (and sadly, more and more quads...). Then the dogs are working with riders all day long.

So my dogs have to learn quickly that Horses Are Not To Be Worked. I take them with me when I go riding as soon as they are ready, and teach them they have to obey me just as well as if I was walking. This has never been much trouble, Gláma picked up some commands better while I was on horseback, like for instance "heel". I think she likes my enhanced mobility .

Of course the horses also have to learn to be used to the dogs, not to startle when a dog is send and shoots from behind them on a fetch.