Back/spinal injury

[Megs]

Hi all,

 

I havent been on here in ages but right now I am desperate and require some help or guidence. Please keep in mind that I live in South Africa and hardly any vets here are aware or do any research into agility dogs and possible injuries.

 

3 months back my boy was running with my other BC on our local club fields, it had been raining and he slipped on push off for a run, screaming in pain, with his leg straight out, sitting and almost looking like he had dislocated a hip. As bad as it sounds and looked to me, he recovered almost immediatly with no limping, nothing. I had him at the vet and physio but they couldn't find anything wrong besides overstretched back/hind muscles and he was on 2 weeks rest.

 

About 2 weeks ago we were training short fast sequences at agility, I finished my round, tied him to a pole (on a short leash to collar) which I don't usually do but wanted to watch the next person run. He barks and jumps up and down on the spot while watching other dogs run. I heard him cry and turned around to find him completely roached over, in pain and unwilling to stand on his back legs, seemed a bit wobbly too but quickly came right again the next day but was still in pain.

 

I took him to the vet, she said all neurological signs are normal, his "toe reflex" is normal, she pushed quite hard around the spine area to find pain and he didnt flinch. We x-rayed and all is normal except for the possibility of the space between one vertebrae is smaller and this could indicate an injury or that the "cushion" between the disk has burst but only MRI will tell. We are on 2 weeks strict crate rest, out for toilet only and then another 3 weeks of slow small on lead excercise.

 

Now the problem comes in that I thought giving the x-rays to a chrio to see if she can help with rehabilitation etc. She sees a very different story: she sees degeneration between 3 disks and early onset of arthritis and going back to agility at this point is not 100%??? How do I get an answer from one extreme to another.....

 

I have booked to see a specialist tomorrow so then hopefully will know more but for now I just wanted to ask, has anyone had a similar experience? Would you recommend Chiro treatment or Physio treatment, swimming etc?

 

I am devastated, he is an incredible agility dog and ONLY 4 years old, our agility has just started and now this. I do hope the specialist can give advice.

 

any advice or help would be apprecaited.

[Blackdawgs]

I have a dog with chronic back problems.

 

At one point, I suspected that she blew a disc, but the vets at the time did not think that she was painful enough. I had taken her to a vet school and was told that they generally don't do MRIs on dogs unless surgery is on the table and for surgery to be considered there would need to be impairment.

 

I have had very good luck with veterinarians that specialize in rehabilitation.

 

As with human back injury's, one needs to strengthen the "core" muscles before returning to full activity.

[juliepoudrier]

I second the idea of finding a rehab vet if you can. It could also be a soft tissue injury that he re-injured jumping around like crazy.

 

Most dog with arthritis can continue to do performance sports as long as you're aware of the arthritic changes, do proper warm ups, and manage any pain/inflammation issues. I've also had luck with acupuncture and electroacupuncture.

 

J.

[Megs]

Thanks so much guys. I do think that the MRI is a last resort and if surgery is needed.I went to see the chiro today after work to chat and go over x-rays, she only sees a problem, closest to the tail end of the spine and it seems to look more like spondylosis?? I have read up that many working dogs have this but many dogs don't present with pain and it is only picked up when x-raying for something else. Is this true? I also hear that most dogs work fine and she said to me that their is a possibility he will not have a problem ever again or he may present with pain again. It is something that no'one can predict. So the choice is with me. I feel that a break from agility is best right now and going into december is the best time for it so won't work him for the next 2 months but will look into stregnthing excercises. Also I have to put him on a joint supplement for life. She said even crating is not going to make a difference in this case. I feel good about this diagnoses but of course am still a bit worried putting him over contacts etc as I have trained him to do 2on2off which of course would make me worry about his back....he is not in any pain now and didn't present with any lameness....

[gcv-border]

Thanks so much guys. I do think that the MRI is a last resort and if surgery is needed.I went to see the chiro today after work to chat and go over x-rays, she only sees a problem, closest to the tail end of the spine and it seems to look more like spondylosis?? I have read up that many working dogs have this but many dogs don't present with pain and it is only picked up when x-raying for something else. Is this true? I also hear that most dogs work fine and she said to me that their is a possibility he will not have a problem ever again or he may present with pain again. It is something that no'one can predict. So the choice is with me. I feel that a break from agility is best right now and going into december is the best time for it so won't work him for the next 2 months but will look into stregnthing excercises. Also I have to put him on a joint supplement for life. She said even crating is not going to make a difference in this case. I feel good about this diagnoses but of course am still a bit worried putting him over contacts etc as I have trained him to do 2on2off which of course would make me worry about his back....he is not in any pain now and didn't present with any lameness....

Beautiful dog.

 

I do not think it unusual to get differing opinions from a general vet and a specialist vet (chiro, or rehab vet or physio? - I am not exactly sure what a physio is so I don't want to mis-speak). It has happened to me. It recently happened to a friend of mine, and I have also heard many stories on-line. I don't blame the general vet. They often do not have the specialized training required for diagnosing in this area. As a result, I would believe the diagnosis and suggestions from the specialist, rather than from a general vet. (of course, there can be exceptions.)

 

Extended rest sounds like an excellent plan, and I think a joint supplement is worthwhile for a working dog. I have had my agility dog on one since he was 15 months old.

 

With regard to 2O2O on the contacts: I do know that they are hard on the shoulders, but do not know how stressful they are for the spine. I assume that the whole body is somewhat stressed with a 2O2O since stopping on a downhill slope (which is what you are asking your dog to do) is not easy when a dog is blasting over the AF or DW. I initially trained my dog to a 2O2O, but then he tore his bicep tendon and had to undergo surgery. The rehab vet/surgeon recommended changing to a running contact.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

I have read up that many working dogs have this but many dogs don't present with pain and it is only picked up when x-raying for something else. Is this true? I also hear that most dogs work fine and she said to me that their is a possibility he will not have a problem ever again or he may present with pain again. his back....he is not in any pain now and didn't present with any lameness....

This is absolutely true. We X-rayed my Boy, now deceased at age 7 looking for bladder stones. No bladder stones in evidence, but the spondylosis was pretty clear, and the spurs on his vertebrae were already pretty long at that age. It did not seem to affect him till he was much older, 13-14, at which point I assume the spurs had fused and so he became stiff in his back (couldn't turn around in a small space). Once he reached 15, he had a permanent limp in his right front. We tried some treatments, but I really think the problem was continued growth of spurs (the spurs can grow inside the spinal column as well) was pinching a nerve, and that's what was causing the lameness.

 

But aside from that late onset lameness, he could be easily managed by not putting him in a little crate and not expecting him to do a lot of twisting. Again, this was in his later years. At 7-12 or so, he was still willing and able to run around, work, etc.

 

J.

[Blackdawgs]

My dog has spondylosis and yes the conventional wisdom is that spondylosis is an incidental finding. I discussed this extensively with the vets and the bottom line is that spondylosis is only a problem when it is a problem. And it may be a problem in dogs that jump and weave.

 

For awhile my dog's back was screaming hot and we had only xrayed under the hot spot. I asked repeatidly, "are you sure that this isn't a bad disc?" and the vets did not think that my dog was painful enough. My new rehab vet who didn't know the dog during this period thinks that based on the amount of heat that I described (one day her back was so hot, I was convinced that she was running a high fever and ran for the thermometer) that there was a disc and my dog was just very stoic.

 

Anyway, the newest diagnosis is lumbar sacral stenosis. Between the putative disc and the stenosis, I am now wondering if the spondylosis WAS incidental.

 

My dog is now 11+ and no longer does agility. Today I happened to speak to the rehab vet about my other dog and the conversation turned to our wretched backs and surgery. And I said look how good 11+ year old Fido is doing with stengthenining exercises and very minimal NSAIDs. We don't need no stinking surgeons.

[Megs]

Thanks again for all the comments. I came back from specialist vet/orthopedic surgeon this morning. Basically he told me that there is some evidence of changes and growth but it is not major, my dog is not in pain at all, he looks a little creaky when getting up from laying down but that could also be my paranoia looking for something "really" wrong. He was saying even he (vet) feels stiff when he gets up but is fine after walking around a bit BUT he cannot say for sure whether it is or isnt something more serious.

 

Basically he told me that only an MRI can tell for sure whats wrong, it could be nothing, it could be a muscle spasm but it could be a problem. He agreed with what the chiropractor said in that he could go back to agility and never have a problem again or he could present with pain again.

 

He said that the site of "problem" is cause for concern as it is at the end of his back, the part of the spine that supports the whole spine - if that makes sense? He said his hips are excellent and he wishes he had hips like him

 

My biggest concern/problem is that if I do go back to agility and he does something again, I would never be able to forgive myself.

 

Keep in mind that he is a reactive dog toward people - especially men (totally terrified) so taking him from one person to the next is extremely stressful for him and for me, this is the last vet we will see and so now I sit with a decision, to MRI or not to MRI. He will be off now for 2 months, no agility so will see how it goes. I can't MRI now anyway as I don't have the money....that will need to be saved over 3 months. It is a terribly expensive procedure just to know but maybe all that money is worth knowing if my dog is ok or not but I am also terrified of doing it and getting bad news. I hate being in this position.

[ness_bc]

Sounds like a similar process I am going through with my 4 year old. The latest finding is back/spinal related and I have to call the neurospecialist on Friday morning to have a chat (earliest I can since he told me to try between 9 and 9:30 in the morning) and the next two days I am flat out with work.

 

They want to do x-rays of her spine but when I had the discussion with the physio as to whether it was likely to change the management side of things her view is that unless I am prepared to consider surgery then it may not change anything.

 

Will wait and see what the neuroguy has to say before I make any further decisions on where to go with it.

[Megs]

Sounds like a similar process I am going through with my 4 year old. The latest finding is back/spinal related and I have to call the neurospecialist on Friday morning to have a chat (earliest I can since he told me to try between 9 and 9:30 in the morning) and the next two days I am flat out with work.

 

They want to do x-rays of her spine but when I had the discussion with the physio as to whether it was likely to change the management side of things her view is that unless I am prepared to consider surgery then it may not change anything.

 

Will wait and see what the neuroguy has to say before I make any further decisions on where to go with it.

 

Its horrible isnt it I have been through so many emotional ups and downs and bottles of wine that i think im just about ready to have a breakdown. I have had x-rays done and that is when they picked up the "possible" problem...

 

I know how you feel and hope for the best outcome for your dog. My boy is also only 4 years old

[bcnewe2]

My boy has had spondylosis since the age of about 3. When he was first diagnosed he had fusing of the 3rd and 5th discs. His brother is the same way but was much worse.

I am careful about watching for signs of pain or roaching which tells me he's over done it, but other than that I don't do anything special. A chrio vet does wonders. If I see him roaching I'll rest him. Or I really should say I used to as he is 9 and lots of things have him in early retirement.

But, my friend who owns his brother didn't know and pushed his dog quite hard. It wasn't until he was out on a big field doing an outrun that the fusing broke which caused 2 discs to rupture. Ended up with expensive surgery and the dog in a wheel-cart.

 

I think what keeps my boy ok is the fact that we run allot and he is still quite active. Keeping the muscles around his spine in great shape keeps the support of his spine at it's best.

 

Sorry my story is not more encouraging but really, my dog is usually healthy and happy with very little pain and still quite active.

[Megs]

My boy has had spondylosis since the age of about 3. When he was first diagnosed he had fusing of the 3rd and 5th discs. His brother is the same way but was much worse.

I am careful about watching for signs of pain or roaching which tells me he's over done it, but other than that I don't do anything special. A chrio vet does wonders. If I see him roaching I'll rest him. Or I really should say I used to as he is 9 and lots of things have him in early retirement.

But, my friend who owns his brother didn't know and pushed his dog quite hard. It wasn't until he was out on a big field doing an outrun that the fusing broke which caused 2 discs to rupture. Ended up with expensive surgery and the dog in a wheel-cart. :(/>

 

I think what keeps my boy ok is the fact that we run allot and he is still quite active. Keeping the muscles around his spine in great shape keeps the support of his spine at it's best.

 

Sorry my story is not more encouraging but really, my dog is usually healthy and happy with very little pain and still quite active.

 

Thanks for your comment. Yes on the one hand your news is quite scary! but on the other hand it is good news too. Still deciding the best way forward but each comment helps.

[juliepoudrier]

I guess one thing to consider is whether what you see on the MRI will change what you do with your dog. I always look at diagnostics, especially very expensive ones, from the viewpoint will it change the course of treatment? And will it change the eventual course of the problem or the outcome (down the road)? That's the fist discussion I would have with my vet. If an MRI will only confirm what's suspected but won't change your approach to treatment/rehab/life in general, then it may not be worth it. If the MRI is prelude to surgery that you either don't want or can't afford, then is it worth it to spend the money on something that won't lead to a positive treatment?

 

I'm not saying don't get the MRI, but just noting that you should consider what you can/will do with what the MRI tells you. And I'd also talk with the nonspecialists (the chiro, a rehab vet if you can find one) and see what they think about what an MRI can tell you and how you might act on those results. So while you're saving money for that procedure, perhaps spend some time talking to folks who can give you a better picture of what an MRI can do for him, without having any stake themselves in getting the MRI done.

 

The better informed you are, the better decisions you can make.

 

J.

[Megs]

Thanks Julie. You make a very good point. I wouldn't consider surgery because of his behaviour issues with people unless of course it was a life and death situation. Just from todays consult he has a runny tummy from stress! I think I have put him through enough over the last 2 weeks. The funny thing is the specialist said oh I think this is what the chiropractor was referring to, pointing out some calcification in his tail (not related to this) and then I said no she was actually talking about this area and pointed it out to him. So either he didn't inspect the x-rays properly or it really is minor and he didn't even pick it up himself until I mentioned it?! You see he is a orthopedic surgeon, he likes to cut, that's what he does and has been trained for, he was fair with me though but I also thought his answers were quite gaurded in that he was making sure to cover his tracks but I guess he has to give answers like that as its only speculation at this point. There could very well be nothing wrong and I don't think my boy would have been in any pain if I didn't over work him that evening.

 

Of coursei want to carry on with agility but at what cost? My step father said to me he could die from biliary tomorrow, carry on after this rest period slowly and remember that he can't do as much in training. Then also begs the question if I should re-train running contacts or just do jumping and no contacts. Its very difficult to decide at this point.

[juliepoudrier]

Megs,

Back surgery is so tricky--I'm just very leery of it in general. When my Kat had an apparent fibrocartilaginous embolism (FCE) nearly two years ago, I had to make some very quick decisions regarding things like surgery. She was briefly paralyzed in both hind legs, but by the time I got her to the vet she was able to use one of her hind legs. At that point, I opted to go a more conservative route (no surgery) and instead I got her in with an acupuncturist in just a few days (the injury happened Dec. 22, so I had to work around the Christmas holidays) and we started electroacupuncture. Healing proceeded so slowly that I seriously thought I might have to consider amputation of that hind leg. But I did massage, continued with the acupuncture, and did the necessary things to make sure she couldn't hurt the foot of the leg she was dragging. I had to help her in and out of the house and sometimes help steady her when she went to the bathroom.

 

Anyway, following that incident, several people I know had dogs with injuries and decided to have back surgery done. The outcomes were not good. I'm not saying this to scare you, but if surgery is put on the table, make sure you can talk to some people who opted to go that route with their dogs so that you have a clear picture of possible outcomes. And make sure the surgeon is clear about his success rate.

 

It's entirely possible that you can just be careful and continue on with what you've been doing. If he exacerbates things with crazy behavior, then try to prevent that or save it just for his agility runs. You know him best and probably would be able to tell if he's having an ouchy day and plan accordingly. I do think it's important to keep him fit, and also to consider strict rest for some period of time just to let any imflammation heal.

 

If you have access to a vet who does rehab or sports medicine (is there a vet school anywhere within reasonable driving distance?) you can ask if swimming would be a good low impact way to build him back up after rest. Swimming is a great exercise, especially for rehab, but there are some conditions that swimming can actually aggravate, so you should consult with someone.

 

If your boy is really stressed by vet visits and the like, then that's definitely something you need to consider in your treatment plan. It may be that there's a medication that would help him deal with vet visits a little better, but of course you'd have to talk to a vet about that too.

 

It is interesting that the ortho doc didn't pick up what the chiro was talking about. Apparently there's nothing on his X-rays that's really jumping out at anyone, and that could be a positive thing. Are you sure it's not a soft tissue injury?

 

J.

[ness_bc]

Kenz has been on one emotionally long roller-coaster ride. Biceps tendonitis/luxating patella surgery - its been a two year saga no wonder I am a little over it :lol:/>/>

 

And Julie yep that is the question I asked the physio (and will ask the neuro guy) - if it changes her management then we will go ahead if it does nothing then there is no point at this stage.

 

Just to put it out there re the swimming - Kenz's lameness is worse after she has time swimming at the pool. The physio has said that back issues are one thing that swimming can make worse.

[Megs]

Megs,

Back surgery is so tricky--I'm just very leery of it in general. When my Kat had an apparent fibrocartilaginous embolism (FCE) nearly two years ago, I had to make some very quick decisions regarding things like surgery. She was briefly paralyzed in both hind legs, but by the time I got her to the vet she was able to use one of her hind legs. At that point, I opted to go a more conservative route (no surgery) and instead I got her in with an acupuncturist in just a few days (the injury happened Dec. 22, so I had to work around the Christmas holidays) and we started electroacupuncture. Healing proceeded so slowly that I seriously thought I might have to consider amputation of that hind leg. But I did massage, continued with the acupuncture, and did the necessary things to make sure she couldn't hurt the foot of the leg she was dragging. I had to help her in and out of the house and sometimes help steady her when she went to the bathroom.

 

Anyway, following that incident, several people I know had dogs with injuries and decided to have back surgery done. The outcomes were not good. I'm not saying this to scare you, but if surgery is put on the table, make sure you can talk to some people who opted to go that route with their dogs so that you have a clear picture of possible outcomes. And make sure the surgeon is clear about his success rate.

 

It's entirely possible that you can just be careful and continue on with what you've been doing. If he exacerbates things with crazy behavior, then try to prevent that or save it just for his agility runs. You know him best and probably would be able to tell if he's having an ouchy day and plan accordingly. I do think it's important to keep him fit, and also to consider strict rest for some period of time just to let any imflammation heal.

 

If you have access to a vet who does rehab or sports medicine (is there a vet school anywhere within reasonable driving distance?) you can ask if swimming would be a good low impact way to build him back up after rest. Swimming is a great exercise, especially for rehab, but there are some conditions that swimming can actually aggravate, so you should consult with someone.

 

If your boy is really stressed by vet visits and the like, then that's definitely something you need to consider in your treatment plan. It may be that there's a medication that would help him deal with vet visits a little better, but of course you'd have to talk to a vet about that too.

 

It is interesting that the ortho doc didn't pick up what the chiro was talking about. Apparently there's nothing on his X-rays that's really jumping out at anyone, and that could be a positive thing. Are you sure it's not a soft tissue injury?

 

J.

 

At this point I have no idea if its soft tissue, a muscle spasm or something else. I am not really interested in doing the MRI as I spoke to the vet and she said well, even if they do pick something up the treatment will be exactly the same...REST.

 

I really would like to take him to physio but getting them to put their hands on him is a nightmare and he tenses up SO much that they can't tell where the problem is anyway. It really is difficult! What about hydro? I would call him fear aggressive, not that I like to "label" my dog but he will bite if pushed over the edge and of course vet visits are just that. So you see it makes my treatment plan or decisions very difficult. We do have a physio who has studied and worked in the UK and apparently is very good so will look into chatting to her as well.

 

The chiropractor did mention to me that getting his core strong etc is not going to do much for where she sees a "problem" so at this point I am VERY confused.

 

Sorry to read about your Kat, that must have been terrible to go through. The problem is everything I google search sounds like my dogs problem! Then again there are SO many things that it COULD be that I figure if I am aware of it I can manage agility training etc to him and watch him for any signs of discomfort.

 

He has been in the crate (strict crate rest) for 1.5 weeks now and so its time to take him out, he has been quite siff. This week I am letting him rest out the crate and be in the garden but not letting him run full out or anything, then next week will start slow walks...

[Megs]

Kenz has been on one emotionally long roller-coaster ride. Biceps tendonitis/luxating patella surgery - its been a two year saga no wonder I am a little over it :lol:/>/>/>

 

And Julie yep that is the question I asked the physio (and will ask the neuro guy) - if it changes her management then we will go ahead if it does nothing then there is no point at this stage.

 

Just to put it out there re the swimming - Kenz's lameness is worse after she has time swimming at the pool. The physio has said that back issues are one thing that swimming can make worse.

 

oh my! Shame, I know how horrible it is when you dont know whats wrong with your dog and terribly frustrating.

 

Will chat to the physio to find out about swimming. Vets are really not good with telling you about rehab etc, they just told me crate rest and then start slowly, um but if I put my dog in a crate for 2 weeks, the muscle wastage and everything else means he would need more than just "slow walks" to get him back to healthy again, well thats my opinion anyway.

[ness_bc]

Hey Megs,

 

Have you considered a Back on Track coat http://www.backontracksa.co.za/

 

I have the mesh version and I do think it helps somewhat.

[Megs]

Hi Guys,

 

Just an update for everyone.

 

The vet is now suspecting cauda equina syndrome

 

Anyone have experience with this? Obviously this can only be confirmed doing an MRI. I asked if doing the MRI will change current treatment and she said yes. So I am very much considering doing the MRI next week so I can actually sleep!

[ness_bc]

Hmm here is a link I have found when I was looking into it -

 

http://petsurgery.com/caudeaquinasyndrome.html

[Sue R]

For both of you Southern Hemisphere women - I hope you are able to find an accurate diagnosis for your dogs, and a plan of treatment that works or at least offers significant improvement.

 

It must be very worrisome and I feel for you both.

[ness_bc]

Thanks Sue R. Kenz has another physio appointment next Thursday (had to squeeze one in before Christmas because her physio is on leave from mid January). Not sure we don't seem to have made any forward ground in the last month unfortunately. Although I suppose the good thing is things haven't got any worse either.

 

Still frustrating bigtime.

[Megs]

Hi Guys,

 

I just wanted to post on here for everyone else that replied to my first plea for help.

 

Unfortunatly young Chaos was diagnosed with lumbosacral disease, he has 3 herniated discs in the lumbosacral area and 4 degenerative discs a little further up his back. I am devasted but at the same time I am glad I opted for the MRI. The specialist said he is not a candidate for surgery right now as there are too many discs affected and he is relatively OK besides being a bit weak in the hind and generally doesnt have half the energy a 4 year old should have he is mobile.

 

I opted to do the MRI because my dog put everything into his agility and I couldnt take the chance of him flying over an A-frame and then the worst happened. I was of course advised to retire him from agility immediatly, the risk associated with it is just too high and im not willing to take that chance. He was an amazing agility dog, a "once in a lifetime" agility dog but my love for him means that I am not willing to put his life on the line for some rossettes.

 

I am looking into herding as its not too far out of town but I am also hesitant becuase of twisting and turning. We are currently just doing a clicker class and obiedence bits but after a fast paced, high power agility life I am really struggling to adjust and am devasted.

 

Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know.

 

Thanks for all the support.

Megs

[Jumpin Boots]

I am so sorry to hear about what you and Chaos have been going through, how sad and frustrating for both of you.

 

If you are looking for new things to do with him have you thought about nosework? I have been playing around with it with all of my dogs, but mainly the older guys, it really wears them out mentally and you can control how difficult you make searches so you could keep Chaos from doing things he shouldn't physically be doing. It seems like one of those things any dog can participate in, there was a blind westie in a seminar I took, and he was the best of all the dogs.

 

Best of luck to you both